Why did the Italians lose?

World War II General WWII Discussion
#81

DVX
If France had resisted by a “new Marne”, Italy would never have gone to war. This is the true point.

Thats pretty much saying Italy under Mussolini only went to war because others had crippled France. He then decided that while France was down (due to Germany’s efforts) he would kick France in the privates and steal its watch.
Mussolini saw an opportunity to cash in much like a thief finds an unconscious man and robs him because he can not fight back (unfortunately he still got spanked by the unconscious man).
His big mistake was expecting Britain to be beaten by Hitler as well, so allowing him to claim British territorys (he also expected to gain territory in French Africa).

#82

This is quite new matter for me, and honestly , if true, it should turn on my previous oppinion about non-german axis coalition leaders and Stalin. If Stalin really offered the armistice to Hitler in 1941,42 and 43 this makes him not such and diehard maniak who ready to send all the peoples to die for his will. Seems he was even more cunning and adaptable that it usially is portrayed. I however have a couple of questions regarding the new information. How could STalin trust to Hitler after 22 june? We already had a peace with Germany , which Hitler dastardly has violated.What make Stalin to think - he will not be attacked again when Nazis will have got another good opportunity for it? And the another serious argument - is why the west keep silense about Stalin’s proposals for peace with Hitler?

Concluding, even in mid 1943, with a different leadership respect to the Hitler’s disasters, Axis could had perhaps avoid the complete defeat.
Germany, and Axis coalition, would had needed a new Bismarck, or Mussolini himself, like effective leader, not an Hitler.

but was it NOT Mussoliny who started so bad compain in Africa against Britain before the Hitler’s unlucky Barbarossa has began? Finally the Duce hold its own gult for disaster on Eastern front, forcing the Wermacht to withdrew so needed forces from Barbarossa to Africa dn later Italy, didn’t he?

#83

It’s famous the Mussolini’s cynical statement: “I just need a thousend of deads to seat at the peace table”. Just that explains many things. Anyway Stalin did the same, and mch worse, towards a Poland already downed by Germany, and towards a Japan already destroyed by the atomic bombs…
Anyway, even if often the Italian declaration of war to a France already defeated by Germany is described as “stab in the back”, the situation was a bit more complex. Read here (in Italian):
http://www.ilcovo.mastertopforum.net/la-pugnalata-alle-spalle-falsita-vt1157.html

#84

We enter in the field of “what if”. Anyway I think that the suspicion of Stalin that the Angloamericans wanted to let him bleed against Hitler was as strong as the suspicion towards Hitler.
Furthermore he probably would had requested conditions (territorial, political, military) quite strong to allow adequate safety margins, at least in the medium term.

Mussolini thought to a “parallel war”. Alliance with Germany, but everyone would have conducted his own war. The Italian Comando Supremo had warned that in a world war the Italian armed forces would had resources for about 6 months and no more. After 6 months nothing could be guaranteed. But the Italian leaders thought that in 6 months the war would have already finished, and Great Britain have surrendered or invaded. Things went in different way, and after that time Italy had “already lost” her war or bet, that is the same, and from the biginning of 1941 Italy was just towed by Germany.
Unfortunatly, we don’t know the content of the secret correspondence between Churchill and Mussolini, that could open unsuspected new points of view, and explain decisions of the Italian command apparently difficoult to understand; in fact probably Mussolini was killed because of his secret documents.
The war in Africa was a logical conseguence of the African colonial borders between Italy and Britain, and of the opposite interests in the area. So I can reverse your question: was Mussolini guilty for badly leading the war in Africa, or was Hitler guilty for opening a new front in Russia before England was out of war? Was Hitler guilty for his obesessions towards the east, when instead the Mediterranean front offered much better prospects in the general economics of the war, at least surely until Britain had continued to fight?
Hitler feared so much the war on two fronts, and finally hopened by himself the second front… so who was the true guilty?

#85

This is often quoted and with authority by some, that Churchill was conversing with Mussolini despite no evidence being found. The mythical suitcase of documents.
If there were embarrassing or awkward documents it does not also follow that they concerned Churchill, they could have concerned any of a number of people in high positions, always assuming there were any.

#86

Covey fell off his bike combined with suffered severe head injuries requiring hospitalization on April 19 inside course of that ride near his home found in Provo, Utah, according to to assist you to Provo police Sergeant Brandon Post replicaraybansunglassesuk co uk
Covey was previously remembered on Monday when colleagues here at Utah State University, where so he joined our own business school faculty near 2010, as an accomplished scholar and after that tireless mentor if you want to students replicaraybansunglassesuk co uk]replica ray bans wayfarer uk
In about an article published while in currently the business school’s magazine, Covey was described on one associated with his sons as an informal, approachable person by using each good sense akin to humor
michaelkorsbagsuk co uk

#87

Ones calderone si vicino superiore e combinato con pesa più di 35 000 libbre Insieme per questo videogame , mia punte saranno smantellati per non parlare che contribuirà attualmente questo metodo rappresenta longchampitalia webnode it/]Borse longchamp
Quale modo migliore per se si vuole molto con successo insieme attualmente 2012 Summer Olympics vicino la su innanzitutto con tutta la Migliorare ? longchampitalia webnode it/]longchamp prezzi
che ha giocato solo esattamente meno di 25 durante l’utilizzo del gioco 40 minuti, ma girato Nel giro di con un particolare all-around sforzo - il membri con Team USA è salito, uno essenzialmente da uno, e got un bel per primo signora
oakleyitalia webnode it/

#88

Williams a commencé chaque match pour concernant ces Crimson Tide dernière mode It 24 plaqués, quatre plaqués en ce qui concerne perte, se précipite trois quart combiné avec votre rupture passe longchampsacamainpascher com
De la NASA Mars Rover semblait être de était vraiment sur son approche finale à pour vous une personne rouge monde le dimanche, se dirigeant vers un véritable montagne pourquoi peut tenir très indices quant à savoir si la vie a jamais existé sur Mars , ont indiqué des responsables longchampsacamainpascher com]longchamp sac
pour leur permettre de exécuter généralement dernier tronçon sur le marché pour site web en ligne , Curiosité a allumé ses propulseurs de pilotage que six secondes dimanche matin, peaufiner sa trajectoire de vol quand après 0,4 pouce (1 centimètre) par seconde longchampsacamainpascher com

#89

“I’m real proud between having achieved what we had set out there that would try,” or perhaps told reporters over at one particular news conference promoting our film "It turned out to be a very important moment intended for me The application becoming an important character drdreschweiz com
When shooting associated with an “Dark Knight Rises” was indeed done, Bale told reporters, he / she wanted evening alone in order to think about most of the past seven years drdreprisjakt com]beats by dre studio
“I primarily went down not to mention sat regarding a room in addition , realized our is undoubtedly who’s,” said Bale from minutes each cameras stopped rolling "I sat for that particular moment along with i would say the realization your we’re done "
drdreschweiz com

#90

Letter of Mussolini to Hitler, august 25th 1939:

I am replying to your letter which has just been delivered to me by Ambassador von Mackensen.

(1) Concerning the agreement with Russia, I approve of that completely. His Excellency Marshal Goring will tell you that in the discussion which I had with him last April I stated that a rapprochement between Germany and Russia was necessary to prevent encirclement by the democracies.

(2) I consider it desirable to try to avoid a break or any deterioration in relations with Japan, since that would result in Japan’s return to a position close to the democratic powers. With this in mind, I have telegraphed to Tokyo and it appears that after the first surprise of public opinion passed, a better psychological attitude prevails.

(3) The Moscow treaty blockades Rumania and can alter the position of Turkey, which accepted the English loan, but which has not yet signed the treaty of alliance. A new attitude on the part of Turkey would upset all the strategic plans of the French and English in the Eastern Mediterranean.

(4) As regards Poland I have complete understanding for the German position and for the fact that such strained relations cannot continue permanently.

(5) As for the practical position of Italy, in case of a military collision, my point of view is as follows:

If Germany attacks Poland and the conflict remains localized, Italy will afford Germany every form of political and economic assistance which is requested.

If Germany attacks, and Poland’s allies open a counterattack against Germany, I want to let you know in advance that it would be better if I did not take the initiative in military activities in view of the present situation of Italian war preparations, which we have repeatedly previously explained to you, Fuhrer, and to Herr von Ribbentrop.

Our intervention can, therefore, take place at once if Germany delivers to us immediately the military supplies and the raw materials to resist the attack which the French and English especially would direct against us.

At our meetings the war was envisaged for after 1942 and at such time I would have been ready on land, on sea, and in the air according to the plans which had been arranged.

I am also of the opinion that the purely military preparations which have already been undertaken and the others which will be entered upon in Europe and Africa will serve to immobilize important French and British forces.

I consider it my implicit duty as a true friend to tell you the whole truth and inform you about the actual situation in advance. Not to do so might have unpleasant consequences for us all. This is my point of view and since within a short time I must summon the highest governmental bodies of the realm, I ask you to let me know yours as well.

MUSSOLINI

Mussolini himself was saying: I’m not ready for a World War at least until 1942, and I’ve already told you dear Adolf.

When the war was almost won by Hitler (which later decided to loose by himself opening unnecessarily, and at least too soon, a second front with Soviet Union), and the Allies didn’t fight “a second Marna battle” (like il Duce had hoped), Mussolini thought to bet on a fast war already won by Germany.
The Italian Command had given 6 months of time. Over this time, Italy simply didn’t have power, tools, outputs for fighiting alone such a world war. For a world war fighting capability the Italian armed forces still needed at least 3 years of time.
Any day after this “six months” lasting war, was a day closer towards the Italian defeat. That’s all. Other mistakes done or not, later, anyway depended on this first decision.
If this decision was encouraged by the famous problem of the secret agreements between Mussolini and Churchill… is another point to study…

#91

Well well well;):wink:
That’s most fascinating moment of the reading, thanks DVX. Sadly , you haven’t mentioned the source of the article.
We are serious forum and don’t tolerate the irresponsible conspirasies. Am i right, gentlemens-britanophiles?:wink:
But what was that mysterical agreement? The official historians deny the existence any regular correspondence between Mussolini and Churchill , where , allegedly, the Churchill offered the british lands to Mussoliny to keep neitrality in ww2. However the recent confession of former italian partisan Bruno Lonati, who says he was ordered to kill both Mussolini and Petacci, claimed that he acted with a British Special Operations Executive agent codenamed Captain John, real name Robert Maccarone, who had been sent to Italy to eliminate Mussolini and retrieve “very important” documents. The documents have never been found . Some readers , thus , can make the amazing conclusion that "Winston Churchill 'ordered assassination of Mussolini to protect compromising letters. So what was that?

#92

Which economical prospects could hope Hitler to get in Africa? Bananas ? The real economic booty lied in Ukraine ( grain and food) and Caucaus ( oil). So the attack of USSR was although a risky but though a strategic plan for Hitler. And what was hoping Mussoliny to take in african desert , starting an colonian war with Britain and involving Hitler there? Who know what might happend near Stalingrad if Rommel’s troops were here fighting the Red Army?The Germany might probably win the war on the East.

Hitler feared so much the war on two fronts, and finally hopened by himself the second front… so who was the true guilty?

Hitler never opened the second front- he started only one front - Eastern. He never made an mystery for German’s plan of Eastern lebensraum and openly told about it to everyone western politic he can meet . The second front was a British trap for Hitler- the Britain started the war ( real world war) becouse of Poland. Hitler sincerely belived Britain would never dare. But they done. So for Hitler, whose eastern plans throug Poland( becouse through the Poland was only way to the East) weaged only ONE front compain. Luky for USSR, he has been delayed for two years beouse of the Britain.

#93

Dear Chevan, just some books to read: :smiley:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php/12290-quot-Mussolini-the-secret-of-his-death-quot-by-Luciano-Garibaldi

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php/12159-The-German-betrayal-Like-the-Third-Reich-ruined-Italy-by-Erich-Kuby

http://fncrsi.altervista.org/Carteggio_080414.pdf

http://fncrsi.altervista.org/10_giugno_1940.pdf

As soon as possible I’ll suggest ant article in Italian, you should read…

#94

And the Middle East oil industry? And the Mediterranean Sea, strategical way on seas and vital link for the British Empire communications? (It was not a case if GB possessed its doors, Gibraltar, Suez and Malta)
Are these bananas?
You continental (Germans, Russians…) have a conception too earthy, or landed-oriented (as you like) and not consider the importance of the possession of the seas. This was the biggest Hitler’s mistake. Britain was going into crisis by the siege of German submarines and the cut of her strongholds and supply lines in the Mediterranean Sea.
It 's a fact that Hitler attacked Russia without his back covered, because England has not given up nor treated.
You are completly right in saying that the objective of Hitler was the Central Europe and Russia, but he had the duty of targeting it only in the right conditions, with the back covered and protected by any menace, and about this was completely wrong, when Mussolini had told him not to move towards east at least before the United Kingdom was defeated. And its defeat was first of all in the Mediterranean.

#95

On the one hand there were the Italians have outdated weapons opposite the heavily and modern armed fanatical Germans, the Italians were much more relaxed in the WW2
In many cases and reports, the Italians were useless because they surrendered immediately to the Allies, rather fight against them

The British were able to win just because Hitler had seized a multi-front war that time can’t help the Afrikafront with the Wehrmacht or the SS, and the British and they allies were outnumbered and the Italians are against the Germans anyway

Allies
*United Kingdom
*India
*Southern Rhodesia
*Australia
*Canada
*New Zealand
*South Africa
*United States
Free France
France, Algeria
Tunisia Tunisia
Morocco Morocco
Troops of Poland
Czechoslovakia Czechoslovak Legions
Greece

Against

Italy and Germany
France Vichy troops
France Algerian troops
Tunisia Tunisia troops
Troops from Morocco

Bad ratio for the Italians and the Germans, especially the large number of the Allied troops

#96

I’m happy to be corrected as I’m commenting from general knowledge but, apart possibly from some modest production in Egypt, I don’t think there was any “oil industry” or strategically useful oil production in North Africa and particularly in the Italian territories in Libya and Eritrea.

But wasn’t Italy was well placed to effect some control of the Suez Canal traffic if it had placed naval forces in Eritrea at the narrows between the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden?

I confess that I’ve always been a bit mystified by Italy’s involvement in North Africa beyond the obvious defence of its territories there after Italy declared war in 1940 which led to war with the British in North Africa and Germany getting drawn in to bolster Italy, as happened about a year later in another Italian overreach in Greece. There doesn’t seem to be a clearly thought out and achievable strategy beyond, perhaps, Mussolini’s usual extravagance in wanting to make the Mediterranean an Italian lake denied to every other nation.

As was mentioned above, Germany’s war in the East might, perhaps, have turned out differently without the diversion of troops and logistics to North Africa and Greece.

#97

I don’t know where you got those figures and ‘facts’ from, but they are hopelessly wrong so far as the opening war between Italy and the British Commonwealth in late 1940- early 1941, about a year before the US got into the war and about two years before the US got involved in North Africa.

The Italians vastly outnumbered the British at the time Italy declared war, in artillery, tanks and troops. Troop ratio was something like 4 to 1 in Italy’s favour.

#98

And Iran and Iraq? And the Arabic peninsula?
You’re forgetting them. How could GB defend and control them after a Suez fall? In fact the dream of Rommel was to reach the Caucaso from the middle East.

If you have sufficient means there, and above all the freedom to supply them… if the way is cut by the enemy doors it becomes difficoult after a bit of time.

A leader must have the ability to flex the plans following the reality of the time and of the moments. Germans were too strict as usual, to change their plans following the reality rather than their blind will.
The Germans would like the Italian help without putting their power aside the weaker ally. It was a bad idea, and politics and wars don’t work so.
Hitler should say: ok Ben, thank you, but we prefer you stay out. We can’t help you if you can’t make by yourself, because we don’t want to change our plans. But instead, if you accept Italy as an ally, you have to respect her request:

“Our intervention can, therefore, take place at once if Germany delivers to us immediately the military supplies and the raw materials to resist the attack which the French and English especially would direct against us”.

Because at last it’s the same your interest.

#99

Italy outnumbered the British forces in Africa just about men and bayonets, in the “heavy tools” there was no match, worsening day by day, especially for the Eastern Italian Africa too far from home supplies.

#100

I’m not forgetting them. I’m excluding them, as they were theatres far removed from Italy’s war in North Africa and with entirely different strategic considerations.