World War II Question

[Rising_Sun]

@Kato

Slaves received medical service as well. Who needs ill slaves? In the Roman Empire and other states there were certain proportion of brilliantly educated slaves working for their rich masters.

If that’s the case, why did you make your earlier point about enslavement being so bad?

According to your latest post, slaves had everything they wanted, including medical care and brilliant education. I think Chevan made a similar point about the medical and educational benefits available under the Soviet communists.

@Kato

The funniest thing is that Russians were serfs and slaves in their own independent state Russian Empire while local jews, all sorts of foreigners from Europe, different Chechens, Circassians have never been.

If they were already slaves, what is the point of your earlier comment about the Revolution allegedly making them slaves?

How can the Revolution have been so bad for the Russians who were serfs and slaves if it didn’t change their status?

You forget the fact that the Russian Empire was defeated in the Crimean war by “Western Civilized Inviders” as you put it.

Perhaps, but Russia / the USSR defeated the Germans and the Japanese on both Russian borders, which was a 1:0 win in both cases.

How does the ancient Crimean event affect that, and Russia’s current position?

[Kato]

@Rising_Sun

How was the peasant class which had been property of its masters before 1861 reduced to slaves after the 1917 Revolution?

It has been turned into the property of just one master - the Soviet state as a result of collectivisation.

[Rising_Sun]

@Kato

It has been turned into the property of just one master - the Soviet state as a result of collectivisation.

Even if that was true (which I don’t accept but will for the purposes of argument), how did that make them worse off than before?

A slave is a slave in anyone’s service, isn’t he?

Does it matter to a slave whether his master is red or white? Isn’t he still a slave?

Or did the Revolution alter other aspects of property ownership, such as that of the kulaks?

Why were the peasants worse off under the Soviets than under Stolypin’s reforms under the Tsar which increased land ownership and serf rights for rich peasants who supported the Tsar and who relied upon the propertyless peasant labourers for their relative wealth?

[Kato]

@Rising_Sun

If that’s the case, why did you make your earlier point about enslavement being so bad?

If the only person’s priority is to receive guranteed nutrition and medical service, then the volantarily enslavement will be the only option for him.
In prison an inmate is also fed and receive medical treatment.

According to your latest post, slaves had everything they wanted, including medical care and brilliant education. I think Chevan made a similar point about the medical and educational benefits available under the Soviet communists.

I mentioned Roman Empire where certain propotion of talented slaves were educated to work for the rich or aristocracy. I did not say that slaves had everything they wanted

The Soviets needed a certain number of people who were well-versed in sciences, engineering to stay in power in the hostile environment and realise their global communistic revolution. However, these Soviet medical and educational “benefits” in the USSR of 1920-40s were very dubious.

If they were already slaves, what is the point of your earlier comment about the Revolution allegedly making them slaves?

How can the Revolution have been so bad for the Russians who were serfs and slaves if it didn’t change their status?

It just prolonged their status of slaves for another 70 years. Perhaps it would not be bad if Russians had lived in the Soviet state alone without non-Russian countries that were included into the USSR against the will of their inhabitants by force.

[Kato]

@Rising_Sun

Even if that was true (which I don’t accept but will for the purposes of argument), how did that make them worse off than before?

A slave is a slave in anyone’s service, isn’t he?

Does it matter to a slave whether his master is red or white? Isn’t he still a slave?

Peasants were deprived of political rights but they received personal freedom and certain economic rights after 1861. Bolsheviks deprived them of any economic rights and did not give civil ones. Peasanats did not have even passports in the USSR.

Or did the Revolution alter other aspects of property ownership, such as that of the kulaks?

Why were the peasants worse off under the Soviets than under Stolypin’s reforms under the Tsar which increased land ownership and serf rights for rich peasants who supported the Tsar and who relied upon the propertyless peasant labourers for their relative wealth?

The Soviets restored de-facto serfdom that was abolished in 1861, terrorised, starved and killed millions of peasants irrespectively of their fortunes and property.

[Rising_Sun]

@Kato

If the only person’s priority is to receive guranteed nutrition and medical service, then the volantarily enslavement will the only option for him.

Enslavement is, by definition, not voluntary.

Did the USSR provide food and medical services only to those who had voluntarily become its slaves?

If the Soviet regime was so bad, was it the case that none of the former peasant class got any nutritional, medical, or educational benefits from it? Especially compared with the benefits that class got before the October Revolution?

@Kato

n prison an inmate is also fed and receive medical treatment.

So what was so bad about the gulags?

@Kato

I mentioned Roman Empire where certain propotion of talented slaves were educated to work for the rich or aristocracy. I did not say that slaves had everything they wanted

What does any of that have to do with Russians circa 1917 - 1945? You raised it. If it’s not relevant, why raise it?

@Kato

The Soviets needed people who were well-versed in sciences, engineering to stay in power in the hostile environment and realise their global communistic revolution.

So, where did these people come from if they were enslaved and not getting nutrition, medical, and educational support?

Is there some special Soviet slave colony which starves its prisoners, doesn’t give them any medical services, and refuses to educate them but which still produces people sufficiently skilled in the sciences and engineering to get the odd lump of metal into earth orbit with a few people aboard?

@Kato

Besides these Soviet medical and educational “benefits” in the USSR of 1920-40s are very dubious.

To whom?

@Kato

It just prolonged their status of slaves for another 70 years. Perhaps it would not be bad if Russians had lived in the Soviet state alone without non-Russian countries that were included into the USSR against the will of their inhabitants by force.

Where is the evidence of slavery?

About all I can think of is forced military service. Which the US and many other Western countries enforced at the time.

So what else was slavery?

[Rising_Sun]

@Kato

Peasanats did not have even passports in the USSR.

That must have been greatly distressing to them, being denied the opportunity to circle the globe and dance the light fantastic during their liberal annual holidays.

@Kato

The Soviets restored de-facto serfdom that was abolished in 1861, terrorised, starved and killed millions of peasants irrespectively of their fortunes and property.

I won’t argue with the general thrust of that comment, although I think the kulaks had rather more to fear from that exercise than the peasants.

[Kato]

@Rising_Sun

Enslavement is, by definition, not voluntary.

By defintion no but the reality is more diverse.

So what was so bad about the gulags?

Gulags were mainly for those who could not be turned into voluntary slaves and pose a danger according to the opinion of the Soviet punitive machine.

So, where did these people come from if they were enslaved and not getting nutrition, medical, and educational support?

Is there some special Soviet slave colony which starves its prisoners, doesn’t give them any medical services, and refuses to educate them but which still produces people sufficiently skilled in the sciences and engineering to get the odd lump of metal into earth orbit with a few people aboard?

I repeat no one can work without nutrition, medical care. The master can’t kill all his slaves. It would be the same if he threw away all his money and burn his own house. If there are needs for highly-skilled work then masters would be interested in educating necessary amount of slaves for it.

Have you herd about sharashkas? They were prisons where the arrested Soviet engineers and scientists worked for the Soviet regime. Their priosners made it possible “to get the odd lump of metal into earth orbit with a few people aboard”.

To whom?

To the bulk of population deprived of civil and economic rights working almost for a song at plants and kolhozes under conditions that were a far cry from the promised Soviet paradise or even capitalistic realities in the West. The good Soviet education necessary for entering Univrsities in the 1920-30s was given only in a limited number of schools mainly in big cities. The prospects for higher eduction for the bulk of population did not differ from the ones in the tsar Empire at that soviet period.

[Kato]

@Rising_Sun

That must have been greatly distressing to them, being denied the opportunity to circle the globe and dance the light fantastic during their liberal annual holidays.

No everything was more banal. The absence of interior Soviet passport made a Soviet peasant to be a sort of illigal immigrant in his own country.

[Chevan]

@Kato

Could you outline what you imply under the “central front”?

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/План_Барбаросса#.D0.A1.D0.A1.D0.A1.D0.A0_2
The Central front was a soviet Western front ,that actualy was a central according the barbarossa definition.( the Area of Group Armies centre)

The Soviet southern front did not attack neither Roumania nor its troops on June 22. The directive sent to Soviet troops prohibited to undertake any offensive actions against Roumania and Finland in the first days of war.

You obvioucly know nothing about first days of war, that why you point has no any sense…
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/План_Барбаросса#.D0.AE.D0.B6.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.B5_.D0.BD.D0.B0.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5

Военные действия вермахта на юге, где находилась самая мощная группировка РККА, оказались не столь успешными. 23−25 июня авиация Черноморского флота нанесла бомбовые удары по румынским городам Сулина и Констанца; 26 июня по Констанце был нанесён удар кораблей Черноморского флота совместно с авиацией. Стремясь остановить наступление 1-й танковой группы, командование Юго-Западного фронта нанесло контрудар силами шести механизированных корпусов (более 1700 танков). В ходе крупного танкового сражения 26−29 июня в районе Луцка, Ровно и Бродов советские войска не смогли разбить противника и понесли огромные потери (60 % всех танков фронта), однако они помешали немцам осуществить стратегический прорыв и отрезать львовскую группировку (6-я и 26-я Армии) от остальных сил

If you take a map with the state borders of the USSR of 1941 you will see that the Soviet southern front was located much more eastwards than other Soviet fronts and the advance into Roumania will help not only capture its oil-fields but straighten the Soviet-Axis front-line as well as shorten the length of it.

They actualy have trued to do it…

К 1 июля войска Юго-Западного фронта отошли на укрепленный рубеж Коростень−Новоград-Волынский−Проскуров. В начале июля немцы прорвали правое крыло фронта под Новоградом-Волынским и захватили Бердичев и Житомир, но благодаря контрударам советских войск их дальнейшее продвижение было остановлено.
На стыке Юго-Западного и Южного фронта 2 июля германо-румынские войска форсировали Прути устремились к Могилеву-Подольскому. К 10 июля они вышли к Днестру.

But the offensive wasn’t succesfull.
The motorized experienced Germans troops prevent all their plans.

Could the Southern front with its 3000 tanks to succeed in such an advance against Roumania? Yes.

Theoretically yes, but Theory is the interesting thing , you know:)
In theory the Ukraine can be independent nation - in practice - this never happend till 1991.

Did the USSR have the military power to stop the Axis near its borders in the fisrt days of war. Yes, more than enough. It had serious military superiority over the enemy even without any mobilization.

Again in theory…
The Poland also could stop the GErmans in 1939 in East and hold them for the entire month , while the British-French troops could finish them in West, but it was never happend

Дивизии 1,1:1
Личный состав 1:1,3
Орудия и минометы 1,4:1
Танки и штурмовые орудия 3,8:1
Самолеты 2,2:1

And what out of it?
Man merely count only the Germans troops opposite to Southern front.
But the problem was that Army Group Centre already surrounded and destroyed the troops of soviet Western front and can easy turn to the South.Having the superior mobility, they can finaly surround and cut off the troops of Southern and South-West fronts ( as later it happend near the Kiev). So the soviet front South needed to retreat to escape the full destruction ( later this let to win the time during the GErmans hard offensive through the Crimea and Caucaus)

[Chevan]

@Kato

You mistake a bit. They usually liked cutting throats of foreign invaders.

Oh yea , to whom have you cuted the throats man?
Except the Polish civilil “inviders” in Volun?
Any real invider OWNED the Ukraine as he wish and can
Everybody from Poles till the Turks
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/История_Украины#.D0.A2.D1.83.D1.80.D0.B5.D1.86.D0.BA.D0.BE.D0.B5_.D0.B2.D0.BB.D0.B0.D0.B4.D1.8B.D1.87.D0.B5.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.BE
And do not tell us that the UPA themself liberated the Ukraine from Germans.
The contemporary territory of Ukraine is the PURE resault of russian efforts.

Besides for instance in the Austrian empire Ukrainains had its autonomy, self-governemnt, regional parliament, their fraction in Empiral parliament, civil rights, they ceased to be serfs long before Russians in their “own” state and their status was incomparably higher than the status of an average Russian in their state before and even after 1918

Oh it was so beautiful ukrainian life in Austo-Hungarian impare, i didn’t know.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/История_Украины#.D0.97.D0.B0.D0.BF.D0.B0.D0.B4.D0.BD.D0.B0.D1.8F_.D0.A3.D0.BA.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B8.D0.BD.D0.B0

Новое украинское правительство перед лицом наступления из России Красной Армии обратилось за помощью к Польше, пообещав за это отказаться от суверенитета над Западной Украиной к тому времени уже бывшую под польским контролем. Польша, вернувшая в 1918 независимость, утраченную в конце XVIII века, стремилась при этом вернуть себе украинские земли, некогда принадлежавшие ей.

I hope the Polish comrides was as much kind as their Austrian mates to the Western Ukrainians, whose leader voluntary SOLD their independence for poles, right?

The funniest thing is that Russians were serfs and slaves in their own independent state Russian Empire while local jews, all sorts of foreigners from Europe, different Chechens, Circassians have never been.

Really funnest thing was when the “non-slaves” Chechens, Circassians went to the Syberia and Kazahstan in 1944:)
And independent Jews who suddenly lost thier previous privileges and influence in 1948-49:)

My best friends Poles? You are mistaken again.

Alas, you are pretty friends- this is a HISTORICAL fact.
Even today the Poles supports the Oranges in their anti-russian hysteria. So you are a pretty good friends…

They are more your friends because the status of Poles in your Russian Empire was higher than the status of Russians.

Actualy in the Tsar Impare there were a such wrong thing.
But as you know , comride Stalin , has improved it

Napoleon lost the campaign in Russia but he was finally defeated by the joint efforts of nearly all Europe.

Becouse of UPA has beated him in Ukraine too:)

Besides till the moment the French logistics were able to satisfy the needs of the Napoleon’s army, the tsar army had seen one defeat after another both in Europe and in Russia. Of course as a result of logistic failure Napoleon lost his army. He can’t replenish this loss and can’t men his new army properly. He had to recruit teenagers or the old.

or shortly saying , the French logistics were NOT able to satisfy the needs of his ambitious army.
And France starts had seen one defeat after another in Europe soon. Even from his neighbourd Germany…
BTW the Ukraines own partisan units ( or how is they called now?) wasn’t able even to beat the Ottoman Impare at that time.What sense to tell about French army, who losed the battle of france for 6 weeks in 1940.

You forget the fact that the Russian Empire was defeated in the Crimean war by “Western Civilized Inviders” as you put it.

Oh lucky Kato , has remember one unfair war;)
YOU missed again , you know that Finaly the Crumea was joined to the Russian impire, as well the Whole Caucaus later.So finaly the Russian Army has reached all the AIMS of previous Crimea War, but bit later.
Unlike your Ukraine nationalist…

[Kato]

@Chevan

Oh yea , to whom have you cuted the throats man?
Except the Polish civilil “inviders” in Volun?

There had been uprising since XVI century. The Polish "civilil “nviders” were as much civil as modern jewish colonists in Palestine.

Any real invider OWNED the Ukraine as he wish and can
Everybody from Poles till the Turks

In the meantime Russians were slaves in their “own” state - Moscovia/Russian Empire.

And do not tell us that the UPA themself liberated the Ukraine from Germans.
The contemporary territory of Ukraine is the PURE resault of russian efforts.

Purely Russian efforts? Each second Soviet soldier killed at the German-Soviet front wasn’t Russian.

I hope the Polish comrides was as much kind as their Austrian mates to the Western Ukrainians, whose leader voluntary SOLD their independence for poles, right?

No one sold the Western Ukraine. It had been already occupied by Poles by the time of negotiations. You can’t sell something that you lost.

Really funnest thing was when the “non-slaves” Chechens, Circassians went to the Syberia and Kazahstan in 1944:)
And independent Jews who suddenly lost thier previous privileges and influence in 1948-49:)

I spoke about The Russian Empire. Russians were slaves and serfs there.
Chechens, Circassians, jews and many other non-Russians were not.

Alas, you are pretty friends- this is a HISTORICAL fact.
Even today the Poles supports the Oranges in their anti-russian hysteria. So you are a pretty good friends…

Fairy-tales about anti-russian hysteria are produced in the state Russian media.

BTW the Ukraines own partisan units ( or how is they called now?) wasn’t able even to beat the Ottoman Impare at that time.

Don’t make me laugh.Ottoman Empire was the most powerful empire in the 16-17 centuries.

Ukrainian cossacks gained victories over Turks at the time when Ottoman Empire was in its climax and when Moscovians feared even to think about challenging Turks

From the second part of the 16th century, Cossacks started raiding Ottoman territories. The Polish government could not control the fiercely independent Cossacks, but since they were nominally subjects of the Commonwealth, it was held responsible for the raids by their victims. Reciprocally, the Tatars living under Ottoman rule launched raids into the Commonwealth, mostly in the sparsely inhabited south-east territories. Cossack pirates, however, were raiding wealthy merchant port cities in the heart of the Ottoman Empire, which were just two days away by boat from the mouth of the Dnieper. By 1615 and 1625, Cossacks had even managed to raze townships on the outskirts of Istanbul, forcing the Ottoman Sultan to flee his palace.[3] Consecutive treaties between Ottoman Empire and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth called for both parties to keep the Cossacks and Tatars in check, but enforcement was almost non-existent on both sides. In internal agreements, forced by the Polish side, Cossacks agreed to burn their boats and stop raiding. However, boats could be rebuilt quickly, and the Cossack lifestyle glorified raids and booty. During this time, the Habsburg Empire sometimes covertly employed Cossack raiders to ease Ottoman pressure on their own borders. Many Cossacks and Tatars shared an animosity towards each other due to the damage done by raids from both sides. Cossack raids followed by Tatar retaliation, or Tatar raids followed by Cossack retaliation were an almost regular occurrence.

[Kato]

Oh lucky Kato , has remember one unfair war;)
YOU missed again , you know that Finaly the Crumea was joined to the Russian impire, as well the Whole Caucaus later.So finaly the Russian Army has reached all the AIMS of previous Crimea War, but bit later.
Unlike your Ukraine nationalist…

The Russian Empire and the USSR turned Russians into volantary slaves and reached nothing else. Nations of Caucases and Tartars have never been serfs unlike Russians in their own state, even after being conquered. Today Crimea is Ukrainian. Georgia, Armenia and Azeris are fully independent. Chechens are de-facto independent. Russians are their slaves per Moscow’s consent. Here some modern Russian soldiers working for Kadyrov clan as free labour according to the orders of their commanders. Thousans of Ivans died just to let other Ivans be Chechen slaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQusB--Ow_U&eurl=http://lj-toys.com/?journalid=8069219&moduleid=27&preview=&auth_token=sessionless:1217178000:embedcontentiurl=http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dQusB--Ow_U/default.jpg

[Kato]

Стремясь остановить наступление 1-й танковой группы, командование Юго-Западного фронта нанесло контрудар силами шести механизированных корпусов (более 1700 танков). В ходе крупного танкового сражения 26−29 июня в районе Луцка, Ровно и Бродов советские войска не смогли разбить противника и понесли огромные потери (60 % всех танков фронта), однако они помешали немцам осуществить стратегический прорыв и отрезать львовскую группировку (6-я и 26-я Армии) от остальных сил

The South-Western front was not abut on Romania. The Southern front was formed along the Roumanian border did not attempt to attack Roumania so don’t make irrelevant statemants

[Kato]

Again in theory…
The Poland also could stop the GErmans in 1939 in East and hold them for the entire month , while the British-French troops could finish them in West, but it was never happend

The USSR had more military power than Poland, France, Britain and Germany itself when it attacked the USSR without mobilization. So if you have military superiority you are expected to win or stop the advance of the enemy near the frontier. Thew Soviets faced military catastrophe in 1941.

And what out of it?
Man merely count only the Germans troops opposite to Southern front.

It has been already counted by Russian historians. Table 53.

http://militera.lib.ru/research/meltyukhov/

Дивизии 1,5 : 1
Личный состав 1 : 1
Орудия и минометы 1,7 : 1
Танки 7 : 1
Самолеты 2,6 : 1

So the Soviet troops confronting the group of army South had seven times more tanks, 2,6 times more planes, 1,7 more cannons and mine-throwers than this group South and the Soviet lost without trying to attack Roumania to overtake its oil fields in spite of this enormous superiority.

But the problem was that Army Group Centre already surrounded and destroyed the troops of soviet Western front and can easy turn to the South.

The Soviet Western Front that you call “central” was not destroyed, it successfully existed till 24 April 1944 when it was divided into the 2nd Belorussian Front and 3rd Belorussian Front. The difficult situation in the Western front could pose a threat for the Soviet South - Western front bot not for the southern
ast the Soviet Southern Front was located much more eastward than the rest. So the situation in the Western front did not pose any direct threat during the first weeks of war. However, it undertook no offensive.

Having the superior mobility, they can finaly surround and cut off the troops of Southern and South-West fronts ( as later it happend near the Kiev). So the soviet front South needed to retreat to escape the full destruction ( later this let to win the time during the GErmans hard offensive through the Crimea and Caucaus)

Germans surrounded only South-western front near Kiev. It was done because South-western front failed to succeed in counter-offensive to help the Soviet Western front, and the southern front did not even try to do it in spite of the fact that the Soviets in Ukraine had 7 times more tanks than the German Army Group South.

[Chevan]

@Kato

It reached nothing. Crimea is Ukrainian. Georgia,

True the bald idiot Khrushev presented it for Ukraine as we as few other historically russians areas.It was resault of political mistakes ( or planned evil actions) but not failure of the “despoties Army”
And what about Georgia?
Washington owned it today?You know why and how:)
What then?Say it was because of failure “russian despoties Army”?

@Kato

Purely Russian efforts? Each second Soviet soldier killed at the German-Soviet front wasn’t Russian.

Just not tell me that each second perished soviet soldier was Ukrainian.

spoke about The Russian Empire. Russians were slaves and serfs there.
Chechens, Circassians, jews and many other non-Russians were not.

So you agree finaly that Stalin has changed the some things to better way:)
Besides the serfs were a peasants, the others were not.
as you have pointed it - the life of Tsar peasants were not better then in first soviet collective farms .
This is progressive idea , that shall shut up the mouths of the some russian who constantly cry about “how beautiful life was in Tsar Russia till 1914”

@Kato

Fairy-tales about anti-russian hysteria are produced in the state Russian media.

Oh really …
Now may be you say that fary tell about Holodomore ( when evill Jews and Moskali genocided poor ukrainians ) is the “state russian media” production too?
Say that you nationalistic-biased Orange’s hysteria are simly the Russian media imagination, man;)

Ukrainian cossacks gained victories over Turks at the time when Ottoman Empire was in its climax and when Moscovians feared even to think about challenging Turks

Oh yea, the Ukrainians cossacs were so cool that grabed and robbed almost everething around even Istanbul( from what their masters Poles felt the certain troubles:)
But damn , that cant liberate the ukraine and just was waiting when Russian army finaly liberated Crimea and Southern Ukraine for them;)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Русско-турецкая_война_1768-1774
Now don’t make me laught you;)

[Chevan]

@Kato

The South-Western front was not abut on Romania. The Southern front was formed along the Roumanian border did not attempt to attack Roumania so don’t make irrelevant statemants

I’m not you to write an irrelevant statements Kato, you should know it…
http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/oborona-e.shtml

Несколько выходя за рамки статьи, хочу заметить, что 23-24 июня, пытаясь облегчить положение в полосе действий Юго-Западного фронта, советская 51-я дивизия имитировала наступление. Переправившись через Дунай, части дивизии захватили населенный пункт Пардина (восточнее Измаила). 26 июня советский десант, высадившийся с 8 бронекатеров, захватил Килия Веке и Периправа (населенные пункты на Дунае поблизости от украинского прибрежного городка Килия). Румынский 15-й батальон морской пехоты был разгромлен и более 350 его солдат были взяты в плен.

Но время больших наступлений Красной Армии еще было впереди и никаких практических результатов эти десанты не дали. Немцев эти советские успехи не впечатлили

Beside as i wrote the Black sea fleet has attacked the Romanian ports.
BTW this excellent article beat all of your previous figures about correlation of strengths in South.

В общем то довольно трудно сравнивать, но если исходить из расчетных дивизий, то получается соотношение сил:
-по пехотным дивизиям 1:3 в пользу противника,
-по кавалерийским дивизиям 2: 1 в нашу пользу,
-по горным дивизиям 1.5: 1 в пользу противника,
-по моторизованным дивизиям - почти абсолютное советское преимущество,
-по танковым дивизиям - абсолютное советское преимущество.

Без рассмотрения расположения дивизий на линии фронта можно сказать, что и на южном фланге советско-германского фронта у Красной Армии преимущества в силах не было. Да, у противника здесь не было танков вообще, как и моторизованных соединений. Но основную массу войск и с той, и с другой стороны составляла пехота. А вот тут то немецко-румынские войска имели троекратное преимущество. Правда, стоит отметить, что наличие у РККА танковых и моторизованных соединений в значительной мере выравнивало положение, что и подтвердил ход боев первой недели войны. Выравнивало, но не давало превосходства. 9-я отдельная армия ( с 25 июня Южный фронт) могла успешно вести и вела оборонительные бои, но наступать никак

Now you see , all your previous point is just a foolish. You just heard somewhere something, but don’t know a matter.

[Kato]

[QUOTE=Chevan;130059]True the bald idiot Khrushev presented it for Ukraine as we as few other historically russians areas.

Historical Russian areas. Are you joking? Crimea has always had to do more with Ukraine than Russia in economic, historic and geographical respect. Even
water has been supplied to it from other Ukrainin regions.

It was resault of political mistakes ( or planned evil actions) but not failure of the “despoties Army”
And what about Georgia?
Washington owned it today?You know why and how:)

I am afraid they are not owned by Washington more than Russia

What then?Say it was because of failure “russian despoties Army”?

Just not tell me that each second perished soviet soldier was Ukrainian.

It was not Russian. The majority of this half were Ukrainains conscripted to the Red Army.

Say that you nationalistic-biased Orange’s hysteria are simly the Russian media imagination, man;)

My personal opinions was formed before 1991.

The fact that you mention the point Orange proves that you brainwashed
by Moscow’s medias.

Oh yea, the Ukrainians cossacs were so cool that grabed and robbed almost everething around even Istanbul( from what their masters Poles felt the certain troubles:)

Of course, they were cool. At that time no force on the earth manage to attack Instabul, the heart of the Ottoman Empire and dereat its harnison except Ukrainians.

As you read the Poles were not their masters but felt very serious troubles because of them.

But damn , that cant liberate the ukraine and just was waiting when Russian army finaly liberated Crimea and Southern Ukraine for them;)

Ukrainian cossacks lived in Southern Ukraine and had their de-facto sovereign
state independent from anyone else for three centuries. There had dozens of treaties signed with foreign states as with equals.
The waged wars for liberating other parts of Ukraine.

[Chevan]

@Kato

The USSR had more military power than Poland, France, Britain and Germany itself when it attacked the USSR without mobilization.

Again simply bu…t.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Великая_отечественная_война#.D0.9F.D0.BE.D0.BB.D0.BE.D0.B6.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5_.D0.BA_22_.D0.B8.D1.8E.D0.BD.D1.8F_1941_.D0.B3.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.B0
The Wermacht had just tiny less power then Red Army in june of 1941, but thier army was much more experienced and trained by the previous two years succesfull compaine in Europe.Thei medium and low officer corp was BEST in the world in that time.
Soviet simply has no chance to prepare it army in such excellent level.

Germans surrounded only South-western front near Kiev. It was done because South-western front failed to succeed in counter-offensive to help the Soviet Western front, and the southern front did not even try to do it in spite of the fact that the Soviets in Ukraine had 7 times more tanks than the German Army Group South.

Wrong again
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Операция_Барбаросса#.D0.A6.D0.B5.D0.BD.D1.82.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.BB.D1.8C.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.B5_.D0.BD.D0.B0.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5

Ещё более тяжелая ситуация сложилась на Западном фронте. Контрудары механизированных корпусов РККА провалились; в ходе боев 23−25 июня основные силы Западного фронта были разбиты. Немецкая 3-я танковая группа, преодолев сопротивление советских войск в Литве (см. Сражение за Алитус) и развивая наступление на вильнюсском направлении, обошла 3-ю и 10-ю Армии с севера, а 2-я танковая группа, оставив в тылу Брестскую крепость (она держалась до 20 июля), прорвалась к Барановичам и обошла их с юга. 28 июня немцы взяли столицу Белоруссии и замкнули кольцо окружения, в котором оказались основные силы Западного фронта.
В начале июля моторизованные корпуса вермахта преодолели рубеж советской обороны на реке Березина и устремились к линии рек Западная Двина и Днепр, однако неожиданно натолкнулись на войска Второго стратегического эшелона (в первом эшелоне 22-я, 20-я и 21-я Армии). 6 июля 1941 советское командование предприняло наступление на лепельском направлении (так называемый Лепельский контрудар). В ходе разгоревшегося танкового сражения 6−9 июля между Оршей и Витебском, в котором с советской стороны участвовало более 1600 танков, а с немецкой до 700 единиц, немецкие войска нанесли поражение советским войскам и 9 июля взяли Витебск. Уцелевшие советские части отошли в район между Витебском и Оршей. Немецкие войска заняли исходные позиции для последующего наступления в районе Полоцка, Витебска, южнее Орши, а также севернее и южнее Могилёва.

Exactly because of the major forces of Western front have been surrounded and destroyed during the first week of war, the plan of supposed soviet attack in south was UNREAL.
Besides as we saw it , anyway the Southern front has no enough forces to realize the great offensive in Romania

[Chevan]

@Kato

Historical Russian areas. Are you joking? Crimea has always had to do more with Ukraine than Russia in economic, historic and geographical respect. Even
water has been supplied to it from other Ukrainin regions.

So why it was russians who has liberated it in 1774?

I am afraid they are not owned by Washington more than Russia

Well you should better know:)
Washington owns both of you now - georgia and Ukraine.
Just do not tell us that your Oranges populists are Independent of USA.

It was not Russian. The majority of this half were Ukrainains conscripted to the Red Army.

Every people of USSR has puted its role in victory. I don’t see the reason overestimate the Ukraine victims over other ones for instance russians and belorussians.

The fact that you mention the point Orange proves that you brainwashed
by Moscow’s medias.

Oh so tell me please “true” about Oranges?
Aren’t they who sponsored and PRed by USA?Say me please this is Russian brainwash

Of course, they were cool. At that time no force on the earth manage to attack Instabul, the heart of the Ottoman Empire and dereat its harnison except Ukrainians.

As you read the Poles were not their masters but felt very serious troubles because of them.

So why they did not fight for their independence, but was limited in actions by the robbing?

Ukrainian cossacks lived in Southern Ukraine and had their de-facto sovereign
state independent from anyone else for three centuries. There had dozens of treaties signed with foreign states as with equals.
The waged wars for liberating other parts of Ukraine.

Yes they lived in South and “waged the wars” with no sensitive effect.
they were “sovereign tribes” in cuptured , oppressed state, and sad fact ,but unfortinately nobody knew about thier independense:)