World War related bickering

[BDL]

@Erwin Schätzer(argentina)

[quote=Bladensburg]Erwin, Duck et al where was this mythical replacement Invincible class supposed to have been built then? Do you have any relaible (third party witness or documentary) evidence to confirm this?

As far as I can tell only three ships of that class were ever built and there are still three ships of that class afloat as all three were recently in portsmouth at the same time. If a fourth was built there should be verifyable evidence.

im not anymore here,why you said erwin?[/quote]

You clearly are here

[system]

@Juvenal

You are, of course, going to provide a link to verify that, hm?

yes of course, search “Service Pals” in google and you will find it.
Then go to the gallery section.

[system]

@maninblack

As far as the loss of a major vessel is concerned I would like to know how the Argentine claims can be substantiated against existing records of building ships.

The UK shipbuilding industry was contracted to build 3 “Through Deck Cruisers” as they were known at the time. These were major vessels of over 20 thousand tonnes gross weight.

A vessel of this size would take around 3 years to construct due to long lead time items and the need to obtain materials by advanced purchase; this weight and material is not available from steel and aluminium processors without ramping up production.

The need to construct a replacement vessel for the lost one would not be possible to hide from the public at large due to the vast supplier base which would be required to deliver parts for the vessel as well as the shipyard that built the secret ship. A construction programme such as this would have a direct impact on the working lives of over 100 thousand workers and cause economic blips in shipbuilding regions that would not be easy to hide.

As well as this there is the “rumour mill” that runs around any armed service. Does anyone really believe that the loss of 1000 crew or the rescue of the said crew from the sea could have been hidden without leakage via the press or the internet for 23 years whilst the death of Princess Diana (an event of much less significance) is the subject of weekly discussion amongst conspiracy theorists?

That the ship was hit by a missile would be extremely difficult to cover up especially with the internet. The loss of the ship does not stand up to logical examination.

I do not doubt that the pilots who launched the attack were brave men who believed that their attack against Invincible had been a success but the only conclusion that bears examination is that the claims on the website are the remaining echoes of a murderous and desperate military government determined to prop up its position by propaganda and lies.

you will see the proves in a book, but wait a few months.

[system]

@FluffyBunnyGB

Given the fact that the Government of the day admitted the loss of the SHEFFIELD, ATLANTIC CONVEYOR etc etc, I’m not sure why the loss of INVINCIBLE would have been covered up. The MoD seemed to make no secret of things once OPSEC was no longer an issue.

PS in the famous picture that has been posted of the INVINCIBLE supposedly on fire, where was the photo taken from? I doubt it was a British photo released to the Argentinian goverment of the time, so who took it? Given the VSTOL planes on the deck and the INVINCIBLE’s AA complement, to say nothing of any escorting ships, how did the FAA manage to get a plane that close?

Pilots attacked the Invincible i interviewd them and i´m not the only person who had done it.
In Argentina all the people think and know that Invincible was attacked.
They believe in their pilots.

The picture:
I have the picture in an italian book, too, not only in Argentina magazines.
The photo may be was taken from a Chinook, the last in service, because the others were lost.

Invincible was alone, remebered that on 30 of may the Task Force had lost lots of ships (damaged and sunk) and nobody thought that an argentine attack to that latitude could be possible.

[BDL]

Ok, I’ll post all of this again, since some of us haven’t been paying attention at the back:

HMS Invincible returns to Portsmouth (she is sailing into port in that photo - the English channel is on the right of the photo). It is not HMS Illustrious - she was 8000 miles away in the Falklands. It is not HMS Ark Royal, she hadn’t been built yet.

Tuesday 1st June

[b31] - Sea Harrier of No.801 NAS, HMS Invincible shot down south of Stanley by Roland SAM (2.40 pm). Flt Lt Mortimer RAF ejects and is later rescued from the sea.

One of HMS Invincible’s aircraft shot down the day AFTER she was apparently sank.
Source is here

In February 1982 it was announced that Invincible was to be sold to Australia where she would replace the aging Melbourne as the flagship of the R.A.N. However, a few months later Invincible sailed together with the larger carrier Hermes to the Falklands. As one of only two available aircraft carriers she was one of the principle targets of the Argentine air force not only because of her importance to the operation but also because of the presence of H.R.H Prince Andrew- a helicopter pilot- on board. If Argentina had succeeded in eliminating her, the results would have been disastrous- as Admiral Woodward commented “Lose Invincible and the Operation is severely jeopardized”. After the ceasefire Invincible returned to heroes welcome at Portsmouth and her sale to Australia was cancelled. Between 1986 and 1988 Invincible underwent a large refit at Devonport Dockyard. During NATO exercise Tapan in 1998 Invincible simultaneously operated three kinds of harrier aircraft- the Royal Navy FA2 Sea Harrier, the RAF GR.7 Harriers and the Spanish AV8B Harrier. In the same year she not only became the first carrier to enter the Baltic for many years on a visit to Poland but she also became what is believed to be the first carrier to visit HM Naval Base Clyde (Faslane). In 1998/9 Invincible became a household name, reaching the headlines once again after being sent to the Gulf where she supported operation ‘Desert Fox’. A short while later she was deployed off the former Yugoslavia where she participated in Operation ‘Allied Force’- the bombing of Kosovo. In 2000 Invincible was deployed to the Mediteranean during the Serbain elections. On 19th September she came to the aid of a sinking yacht off the North East Algerian coast. The carrier, 15 miles away, received the mayday from the stricken yacht- Kabuki- saying she had lost her sail and was taking on water. A Sea King helicopter was immediately launched and twenty minutes later whinched two Frenchmen from the vessel to safety. On 26th September 2000 the Greek registered ferry Express Samina ran aground two miles off the island of Paros. Two Sea King helicopters from HMS Invincible winched a total of 12 people, including two Britons, off the rocks. Once flown back to the carrier, one survivor was treated for hypothermia and the rest for minor bruises, cuts and shock.

A brief history of HMS Invincible from here

Some ships will sadly not be returning - destroyers “Coventry” and “Sheffield”, frigates “Antelope” and “Ardent”, LSL “Sir Galahad” and the “Atlantic Conveyor” - but by the end of August, most of the others have left the Falklands area (some later make a second trip) to be replaced by a smaller number of destroyers and frigates and other vessels mostly on their first journey south. Amongst these are the four merchantmen, two minesweepers and their support ship “St Helena” all of which which sailed from the UK before the surrender. MCMS “Brecon” and “Ledbury” arrive in early July to relieve the five minesweeping trawlers, and spend the next five weeks hunting for any ground mines laid by the Argentines, none of which are found.

Of the major warships, assault ships “Fearless” and “Intrepid” set sail a week and a half after the surrender, and arrive at Portsmouth on the 14th July after first unloading marines and Sea Kings of No.846 NAS at Devonport. As for the carriers, until the arrival of the RAF Phantoms at Stanley, only their Harriers can provide much of the air defence still needed by the Falklands. Following the surrender, “Invincible’s” first priority is to sail well clear to the north, escorted by frigate “Andromeda” in order to change a main engine. “Hermes” remains behind until “Invincible” is back, and on the 4th July sails with escort “Broadsword” for Portsmouth, arriving on the 21st to another great welcome. Well before then, on the 2nd July, Admiral Woodward is relieved as Task Group commander by Rear Admiral Reffell flying his flag on destroyer “Bristol”.

But there is no relief for “Invincible” which has to await the arrival of newly-commissioned sister ship “Illustrious” carrying a reformed No.809 Sea Harrier squadron and the first early airborne warning Sea Kings. Reaching the Falklands on the 27th August, and after a day’s vertrep, “Invincible” is at last able to head north on the 28th accompanied by “Bristol” and later RFA “Olna”, arriving at Portsmouth on the 17th September to be met by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. After 166 days at sea, “Invincible” claims the record for the longest continuous carrier operations ever.

The Sea Harriers and most of the Navy, Marine and Army helicopters go back to the UK with the returning ships. As for the RAF, mainly based at or flying to Ascension, the few Vulcan bombers fly home by the time of the surrender, and the last Nimrod MR.2’s continue operating from Ascension until August, but even then, there is little let-up for the other aircraft. VC.10’s maintain the air-link between the UK and Ascension, returning with many of the troops from there. Hercules transports fly south regularly, and from late June are landing at Stanley. (By then, two members of 47 Sqdn have earned gallantry awards for their air-drop missions.) And for many more months, Victor tankers and later Hercules conversions refuel the extended range Nimrods and Hercules deep into the South Atlantic and on to the Falklands. On the island itself, a number of Harrier GR.3’s of 1(F) Sqdn once again fitted with Sidewinder for air defence, are based at Stanley, but in October, 29(F) Sqdn Phantoms fly down from Ascension to the newly opened RAF Stanley to start taking over from them.

Finally there is the question of the last resting place for those British dead not buried or lost at sea. The policy has long been for those killed on active service to remain in the country where they fall, but many families choose to bring their men home. In October, LSL “Sir Bedivere” leaves the Falklands carrying over sixty back to the UK. Another sixteen however, including Lt Col Jones VC, stay in the Falklands.

A brief run down of the naval losses from the war, taken from a link kindly posted by IrishDuck. The link is here. Note the writing in bold.

[Fuchs66]

@TheIrishDuck

[
you will see the proves in a book, but wait a few months.

and I dont suppose you could give us the name of the Author?

[system]

@BDL

Ok, I’ll post all of this again, since some of us haven’t been paying attention at the back:

HMS Invincible returns to Portsmouth (she is sailing into port in that photo - the English channel is on the right of the photo). It is not HMS Illustrious - she was 8000 miles away in the Falklands. It is not HMS Ark Royal, she hadn’t been built yet.

Tuesday 1st June

[b31] - Sea Harrier of No.801 NAS, HMS Invincible shot down south of Stanley by Roland SAM (2.40 pm). Flt Lt Mortimer RAF ejects and is later rescued from the sea.

One of HMS Invincible’s aircraft shot down the day AFTER she was apparently sank.
Source is here

In February 1982 it was announced that Invincible was to be sold to Australia where she would replace the aging Melbourne as the flagship of the R.A.N. However, a few months later Invincible sailed together with the larger carrier Hermes to the Falklands. As one of only two available aircraft carriers she was one of the principle targets of the Argentine air force not only because of her importance to the operation but also because of the presence of H.R.H Prince Andrew- a helicopter pilot- on board. If Argentina had succeeded in eliminating her, the results would have been disastrous- as Admiral Woodward commented “Lose Invincible and the Operation is severely jeopardized”. After the ceasefire Invincible returned to heroes welcome at Portsmouth and her sale to Australia was cancelled. Between 1986 and 1988 Invincible underwent a large refit at Devonport Dockyard. During NATO exercise Tapan in 1998 Invincible simultaneously operated three kinds of harrier aircraft- the Royal Navy FA2 Sea Harrier, the RAF GR.7 Harriers and the Spanish AV8B Harrier. In the same year she not only became the first carrier to enter the Baltic for many years on a visit to Poland but she also became what is believed to be the first carrier to visit HM Naval Base Clyde (Faslane). In 1998/9 Invincible became a household name, reaching the headlines once again after being sent to the Gulf where she supported operation ‘Desert Fox’. A short while later she was deployed off the former Yugoslavia where she participated in Operation ‘Allied Force’- the bombing of Kosovo. In 2000 Invincible was deployed to the Mediteranean during the Serbain elections. On 19th September she came to the aid of a sinking yacht off the North East Algerian coast. The carrier, 15 miles away, received the mayday from the stricken yacht- Kabuki- saying she had lost her sail and was taking on water. A Sea King helicopter was immediately launched and twenty minutes later whinched two Frenchmen from the vessel to safety. On 26th September 2000 the Greek registered ferry Express Samina ran aground two miles off the island of Paros. Two Sea King helicopters from HMS Invincible winched a total of 12 people, including two Britons, off the rocks. Once flown back to the carrier, one survivor was treated for hypothermia and the rest for minor bruises, cuts and shock.

A brief history of HMS Invincible from here

Some ships will sadly not be returning - destroyers “Coventry” and “Sheffield”, frigates “Antelope” and “Ardent”, LSL “Sir Galahad” and the “Atlantic Conveyor” - but by the end of August, most of the others have left the Falklands area (some later make a second trip) to be replaced by a smaller number of destroyers and frigates and other vessels mostly on their first journey south. Amongst these are the four merchantmen, two minesweepers and their support ship “St Helena” all of which which sailed from the UK before the surrender. MCMS “Brecon” and “Ledbury” arrive in early July to relieve the five minesweeping trawlers, and spend the next five weeks hunting for any ground mines laid by the Argentines, none of which are found.

Of the major warships, assault ships “Fearless” and “Intrepid” set sail a week and a half after the surrender, and arrive at Portsmouth on the 14th July after first unloading marines and Sea Kings of No.846 NAS at Devonport. As for the carriers, until the arrival of the RAF Phantoms at Stanley, only their Harriers can provide much of the air defence still needed by the Falklands. Following the surrender, “Invincible’s” first priority is to sail well clear to the north, escorted by frigate “Andromeda” in order to change a main engine. “Hermes” remains behind until “Invincible” is back, and on the 4th July sails with escort “Broadsword” for Portsmouth, arriving on the 21st to another great welcome. Well before then, on the 2nd July, Admiral Woodward is relieved as Task Group commander by Rear Admiral Reffell flying his flag on destroyer “Bristol”.

But there is no relief for “Invincible” which has to await the arrival of newly-commissioned sister ship “Illustrious” carrying a reformed No.809 Sea Harrier squadron and the first early airborne warning Sea Kings. Reaching the Falklands on the 27th August, and after a day’s vertrep, “Invincible” is at last able to head north on the 28th accompanied by “Bristol” and later RFA “Olna”, arriving at Portsmouth on the 17th September to be met by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. After 166 days at sea, “Invincible” claims the record for the longest continuous carrier operations ever.

The Sea Harriers and most of the Navy, Marine and Army helicopters go back to the UK with the returning ships. As for the RAF, mainly based at or flying to Ascension, the few Vulcan bombers fly home by the time of the surrender, and the last Nimrod MR.2’s continue operating from Ascension until August, but even then, there is little let-up for the other aircraft. VC.10’s maintain the air-link between the UK and Ascension, returning with many of the troops from there. Hercules transports fly south regularly, and from late June are landing at Stanley. (By then, two members of 47 Sqdn have earned gallantry awards for their air-drop missions.) And for many more months, Victor tankers and later Hercules conversions refuel the extended range Nimrods and Hercules deep into the South Atlantic and on to the Falklands. On the island itself, a number of Harrier GR.3’s of 1(F) Sqdn once again fitted with Sidewinder for air defence, are based at Stanley, but in October, 29(F) Sqdn Phantoms fly down from Ascension to the newly opened RAF Stanley to start taking over from them.

Finally there is the question of the last resting place for those British dead not buried or lost at sea. The policy has long been for those killed on active service to remain in the country where they fall, but many families choose to bring their men home. In October, LSL “Sir Bedivere” leaves the Falklands carrying over sixty back to the UK. Another sixteen however, including Lt Col Jones VC, stay in the Falklands.

A brief run down of the naval losses from the war, taken from a link kindly posted by IrishDuck. The link is here. Note the writing in bold.

You are wrong.

First of all, the photo show us the Invincible, yes but before Malvinas, may be in 1981.

[system]

@Fuchs66

[quote=TheIrishDuck][
you will see the proves in a book, but wait a few months.

and I dont suppose you could give us the name of the Author?[/quote]

the book is not ready yet.

[BDL]

@TheIrishDuck

You are wrong.

Oh, well that’s me proved wrong then :roll:

First of all, the photo show us the Invincible, yes but before Malvinas, may be in 1981.

Yesterday you were telling us it was definitely HMS Illustrious

[Crab_to_be]

Holy freaking guano, bat-brits! IRISHMAN lives!!

[system]

[quote=“BDL”]

@TheIrishDuck

You are wrong.

Oh, well that’s me proved wrong then :roll:

First of all, the photo show us the Invincible, yes but before Malvinas, may be in 1981.

Yesterday you were telling us it was definitely HMS Illustrious[/quote]

yes but i was confused with the insults in this forum.

Now i see it again, and saw my archive of photos and is the invincible but before 1982.

[Fuchs66]

@TheIrishDuck

[quote=Fuchs66][quote=TheIrishDuck][
you will see the proves in a book, but wait a few months.

and I dont suppose you could give us the name of the Author?[/quote]

the book is not ready yet.[/quote]

so how do you know it’s going to provide all the proof? If you know so much already then surely you must know who’s written it, or are you making that up aswell?

[BDL]

@TheIrishDuck

[quote=BDL][quote=TheIrishDuck]
You are wrong.

Oh, well that’s me proved wrong then :roll:

First of all, the photo show us the Invincible, yes but before Malvinas, may be in 1981.

Yesterday you were telling us it was definitely HMS Illustrious[/quote]

yes but i was confused with the insults in this forum.

Now i see it again, and saw my archive of photos and is the invincible but before 1982.[/quote]

Why would all those people be there for Invincible getting home, if it’s not coming home from a war?

The photo was of the celebrations for Invincible returning home from the Falklands.

[Flash]

@TheIrishDuck

Pilots attacked the Invincible i interviewd them and i´m not the only person who had done it.
In Argentina all the people think and know that Invincible was attacked.
They believe in their pilots.

The picture:
I have the picture in an italian book, too, not only in Argentina magazines.
The photo may be was taken from a Chinook, the last in service, because the others were lost.

Invincible was alone, remebered that on 30 of may the Task Force had lost lots of ships (damaged and sunk) and nobody thought that an argentine attack to that latitude could be possible.

TheIrishCock; Define ‘lots of ships’ and define ‘Alone’?

You think it was taken by ‘BN’, the sole surviving Chinnok from Atlantic Conveyor? From what I remember, it made its way to Hermes on the 25th May then popped off to San Carlos to move blokes and kit around. Of course, it wasnt busy enough on the 30th of May so it tootled off on a ‘round robin’ to take photos of the fleet. And it just so happened to be near Invinsible right after the attack.

A slight flaw to your otherwise watertight plan.

Any actual proof apart from a poor photoshopped piccie and ‘your interviews’?

Oh, by the way, youre a cock.

[system]

@Fuchs66

[quote=TheIrishDuck][quote=Fuchs66][quote=TheIrishDuck][
you will see the proves in a book, but wait a few months.

and I dont suppose you could give us the name of the Author?[/quote]

the book is not ready yet.[/quote]

so how do you know it’s going to provide all the proof? If you know so much already then surely you must know who’s written it, or are you making that up aswell?[/quote]

i can´t give you more information, here i gave you a few, but believe me the book has old the things to prove the true.

[Fuchs66]

@TheIrishDuck

i can´t give you more information, here i gave you a few, but believe me the book has old the things to prove the true.

How can I believe you when you offer absolutely no proof.

[system]

[quote=“Flash”]

@TheIrishDuck

Pilots attacked the Invincible i interviewd them and i´m not the only person who had done it.
In Argentina all the people think and know that Invincible was attacked.
They believe in their pilots.

The picture:
I have the picture in an italian book, too, not only in Argentina magazines.
The photo may be was taken from a Chinook, the last in service, because the others were lost.

Invincible was alone, remebered that on 30 of may the Task Force had lost lots of ships (damaged and sunk) and nobody thought that an argentine attack to that latitude could be possible.

TheIrishCock; Define ‘lots of ships’ and define ‘Alone’?

You think it was taken by ‘BN’, the sole surviving Chinnok from Atlantic Conveyor? From what I remember, it made its way to Hermes on the 25th May then popped off to San Carlos to move blokes and kit around. Of course, it wasnt busy enough on the 30th of May so it tootled off on a ‘round robin’ to take photos of the fleet. And it just so happened to be near Invinsible right after the attack.

A slight flaw to your otherwise watertight plan.

Any actual proof apart from a poor photoshopped piccie and ‘your interviews’?

HEY MODERATOR!!!

WHAT´S UP???

I WON´T POST AGAIN WITH THAT KIND OF INSULT

Oh, by the way, youre a cock.[/quote]

[Crab_to_be]

@IRISHDUCK

HEY MODERATOR!!!

WHAT´S UP???

I WON´T POST AGAIN WITH THAT KIND OF INSULT

I’m a mod. You’re an idiot. Please don’t post again.

[system]

@BDL

[quote=TheIrishDuck][quote=BDL][quote=TheIrishDuck]
You are wrong.

Oh, well that’s me proved wrong then :roll:

First of all, the photo show us the Invincible, yes but before Malvinas, may be in 1981.

Yesterday you were telling us it was definitely HMS Illustrious[/quote]

yes but i was confused with the insults in this forum.

Now i see it again, and saw my archive of photos and is the invincible but before 1982.[/quote]

Why would all those people be there for Invincible getting home, if it’s not coming home from a war?

The photo was of the celebrations for Invincible returning home from the Falklands.[/quote]

no the photo that i showed you is the celebration, in your photo i can´t see any ship.

[Flash]

HEY MODERATOR!!!

WHAT´S UP???

I WON´T POST AGAIN WITH THAT KIND OF INSULT

So if I inuslt you, you wont post, TheIrishCock?

Good. Go take your face for a shit you small minded cunt.