Poles who survived Siberian death camps ~ The 1500

World War II Other Military Units
#1

My father in law was taken by the Russians from a village just outside of Warsaw at the beginning of WWII. He was sent to a Siberian death camp and was later a part of 1500 men released to a diplomat in England that was supposed to train them and outfit them, then send them back to Russia to fight against German. Instead they enlisted in the 1st Polish Armored Division and fought with Canada for England. I have been trying to find information on the 1500. There must be documentation on them. How would I find information on my father in laws arrest, detention and release?

While in college I was told they were known as the 1500 but I have not been successful at finding any information on them.

#2

Even though it is brief it pretty darn interesting!

#3

It is interesting. I have some of my father in laws military papers. He was part of the 1st Polish Armored Division also known as the Black Devils. He won many medals and at the time of his release from the military was a Sr Master Sgt.

My problem is finding out more about his detention in Poland, where he was sent to in Siberia and the negotiations and release from Russia. I think it was Władysław Sikorski who negotiated the release http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorski–Mayski_agreement However they say that all the Polish citizens released were kept in Russia as a Polish army and were not allowed to leave Russia. I know that my father in law was a part of 1500 men released. They marched over the Siberian mountains and down through Iran, Iraq, Syria and into Palistine where they boarded a ship and were taken to Scotland.

The agreement with Russia was broken because they were to be returned to fight for Russia. This diplomat knew he was not going to send them back so this was a betrayal and probably why further detainee’s were not allowed to leave the country. It is also probably why negotiations broke down between Russia and Poland. I imagine it is also why Russia demanded Poland as part if it’s settlement at the end of the war. My father in law could not go back to Russia for fear of being sent back to the death camps. He didn’t return for a visit until 1979.

I need to find the information on the release of these 1500 men. There should be something out there on them.

#4

those Poles were not sent to death camps, neither German POWs were, get your facts right.

#5

Yes, Mr. Stalin, Kittas is speaking the truth. Polish civilians were sent to work camps in Siberia, and many did not make it back. I am one of the few members of the Polish AK to make it back from Siberia alive. I can tell you gruesome stories about my interrogation by a round of NKVD officers, and those lost years mining coal and logging trees, Mr. Stalin. When life was a painful struggle.

#6

So how do you explain the very high death rate of German POWs in Soviet hands?

As you’re the man for facts, I suggest you present us with the following facts:

  1. Number of German service people taken prisoner by the USSR.
  2. Number who died in captivity.
#7

My father’s partner’s father, (grandfather effectively, Polish, now deceased) was sent to a Siberian camp following the 1939 invasion. He was 14 years old at the time. As he told it, a group of 12 of them escaped and made the horrifically arduous journey to Iraq (apparently only 2 or 3 of them survived the ordeal of the journey). He lied about his age and immediately enlisted in a Polish unit within the British Army and saw service in North Africa and Italy. He was a member of the unit that finally took the monastery at Monte Casino. He was decorated accordingly. Such an amazing and inspiring story. But like every true soldier, he never spoke of it in enough detail to give a full picture. He made light of it and was extremely humble about his involvement in the whole affair. A defence mechanism of sorts I suppose. Such an amazing man and story.

#8

WTF!!!:slight_smile: How old are you buddy?
Even If you was 20 in 1945 when the Polish AK has been finally dismissed and has been sent into GULAG- you shoud be around 95 years old today:))))) And this is after “mining coal and logging treesIn Syberia”???!!! Really your memody serves that well?

#9

Not for defense of Stalin , but the death rate was never hight actually:)
Within 1941-1956
The total NKVD’s statisic of german POW in USSR - 2.389.560 (100%)
Executed or died( including due the natural reasons) in captivity - 356.678 ( 15%)
Liberated and rhepatriated back to Germany -2 031 743 (85%)
Those figures don’t count the anothe axis pows like romanoans or italians in USSR!! Only the Germans
So , pure statistically the 85% of germans succesfully surviver the Syberian “death-camps”.
The phrase “high death rate of German POWs in Soviet hands” is a pure fake propogandic term wich is , usially tied with the bitter fate of 6-x army Stalingrad POWs, whom from 90 thousands in 1943 only 3 thousands survivded. But those POWs have been captured almost dead and looked like a ill sceletons. Manyes of them been exhausted and died of starvation.
As for the good comparition - the fate of Soviet pows in Germans camps
From about 5 mln of the soviet pows, captured within 1941-1944
Realised as colloborators( ROA, RONA and ets) - 800 thousands
Executed - 473 thousands
Missed - 67 thousands
Died in camps -2 mln
Died on the road to camps - 768 thousands
The survived in camps ( 1 may 1944) - 1 mln
So totally till 1944 almost 3 mln of 5 ( or almost 60%) died in German captivity within firts 3 years of war( the last year isn’t counted yet).
Thats how the race-hate theories worked and real death-camps looked like, gentlemens.

#10

Congratulations on being able to log in, never mind the huge achievement of actually managing to post on this currently ****ed site. ):
Before you and I join battle on these figures and arguments, why should I accept the NKVD statistics as correct?

Some examples of why I’m sceptical of NKVD, as an arm of Soviet propaganda, figures.

  1. North Vietnam erected a shrine at site of Battle of Long Tan stating that Vietnamese forces wiped out an Australian battalion. First problem is that there wasn’t an Australian battalion in the field at the time, never mind in that battle.
  2. Second problem is that there was only one Australian company at that battle.
  3. USSR said it never had any forces in North Vietnam, when it had substantial forces there.
  4. USSR blamed Nazis for the Katyn massacre carried out by NKVD.

So what has Vietnam bullshit about relatively minor battle at Long Tan got to do with Katyn and NKVD statistics?

Just part of a long line of Soviet and Chicom and NVA related communist bullshit that wants the rest of us to believe that horse shit is strawberry jam.

Doesn’t mean that the US was much better in some respects about its own propaganda post WWII, but I don’t think anyone can point to anything by the US and its allies that goes anywhere near the usually abysmal Soviet treatment of German and related POWs as an enduring and systematic form of punishment for being in Germany’s armed forces.

#11

Well he’s old enough to “Like Ike”… :slight_smile:

#12

One of the issues with the Soviet ‘statistics’ is that many German soldiers remained “missing” or MIA in the Soviet Union and some historians believe that many of the missing actually died in captivity and simply remain unlisted. The number of deaths may be as high as 1,000,000…

#13

He he he, i’m too very glad to see you old mate;))))) The site may looks boring fo someone - but this is the only place we ( a mean you and Nick) meet together already 10 years . So i don’t know the better place to learn the last news and thoughts independently on idiotic mass media;)

Before you and I join battle on these figures and arguments, why should I accept the NKVD statistics as correct?

Firslty becouse we have no other statistic otherway about German pows in gulag! The declassified NKVD/KGB datas are very informative for current historians actualy.

Some examples of why I’m sceptical of NKVD, as an arm of Soviet propaganda, figures.

The Soviet propogand is a bitch, i’m agree. Any propogand has no much deal with reality- becouse the propogand is continuation of War. But the NKVD statistic wasn’t for propogand - it was pure beurocratic inner statistic. The NKVD boses had absolutly NO reasons to falsify the reports or any statistical datas - firslty coz it was DANGER for their carier and life during Stalin era.

  1. North Vietnam erected a shrine at site of Battle of Long Tan stating that Vietnamese forces wiped out an Australian battalion. First problem is that there wasn’t an Australian battalion in the field at the time, never mind in that battle.
  2. Second problem is that there was only one Australian company at that battle.

Not known about this theme - Australians in vietnam war- but say me honestly where you have learned about this falsified propogandic tale- directly from Northern Vietnam press or from local Australian media? Remember your own medie wage own game!

  1. USSR said it never had any forces in North Vietnam, when it had substantial forces there.

The soviet leadership denied this fact becouse of obvious reasons, but today all the Army’s archived datas has declassified- and you may learn the full picture. Wiki has even very detailed article about itAnd nobody in USA or else doesn’t dispute those archive datas from soviet archives.
Buth this is wfole another big thread , i guess…

  1. USSR blamed Nazis for the Katyn massacre carried out by NKVD.

Not NKVD blamed Nazis but Soviet political leadership!!!
Moreover, exactly declassified in mid 1990y NKVD datas of executed POWs has lade into the report that has been passed to Polish side. And poles never actually denied or argued the figures , reported there.
So NKVD inner datas are pretty correct endeed. Which doesn’t the same for the Soviet political proclamations about the events…

So what has Vietnam bullshit about relatively minor battle at Long Tan got to do with Katyn and NKVD statistics?

The common basis for those fake propogand was a war. But where from it come from? Beeing involed into the War - peoples use own myths and propogad for own purposes. Same was any time in any wars.
You dislake the “commies” just coz they were enemies - so any farytales or lie is desired and welcomed. Just the matter of psyhology that uses your own govenment to warm up the race/ethnic/national/ideological/religion hate in mases. It’s normal, for current time at least

Doesn’t mean that the US was much better in some respects about its own propaganda post WWII, but I don’t think anyone can point to anything by the US and its allies that goes anywhere near the usually abysmal Soviet treatment of German and related POWs as an enduring and systematic form of punishment for being in Germany’s armed forces.

This just show up how the you own propogand work:) Your mass media just took the old goebbels propogand aka"horrible Syberia"and slightly modified it to the new ideological requirements, apropriated to Cold war era. Nothing principially new endeed.
I may explaine you why the “abysmal treatment” has absolutly NO motivation for Soviet govenment. Firstly coz the devastated post war economic needed the manpower, seriously reduced within the war. And for that - the manpower should be at least Alive and Fed ( more or less) to work .
The another reason was pure political- the post war East Germany ( DDR) becoming one of the major soviet ally in Europe and the Soviets were NOT interested to warm up antirussian feeling amont post war germans and execute anyone or treat bad the german pows in GULAG, most of whom should be later returned back to the allied DDR. In fact the post germans pows supplied and feeded even better thier russian or ukrainain prisoners in Gulag. The same rule shared to another
axis pows in USSR like hungarians or romanians.
By short words- i’m absolutly deny your denial about NKVD figures;):slight_smile:

#14

Hello Nicki. You seems touch an old controversal conspiracy the “missing million of german pows”.
I know an alternative poin to the theme:wink:
And i bet some historians believe that version too;)

#15

I’ll reply to the rest of your post later, but if we look back at you, me and Nick we have all come a long way from the sometimes bitter and aggressive disputes many years ago.

Perhaps it’s not that different to former enemies in wars who meet each other personally many years later and get on well together (the best example I know of being a couple of blokes in an Australian gliding club who got talking and thought they might have been opposed to each other as fighter pilots in WWII, and brought their log books to their next meeting and found that they probably had been as they were in the same action, and regretted it).

Wars aren’t made by people like you, Nick and me. We’re just the dumb bastards who fight the wars for the rich and powerful.

If only all the average people like you, Nick and me around the world could recognise that and refuse to fight each other for the benefit of the rich and powerful and the advancement of their wealth and egos.

#16

Very true RS* I have met former potential adversaries, and never have I felt animosity toward them, nor they me. As you said, we were just soldiers, doing a job we didn’t want, or create. I recall being in East Berlin, and the Warsaw Pact Troops, and the Vopos were all smiles, and peace signs (unless you pointed a camera toward them, then the stone face came out. ) When we would cross at Check point Charlie, one would come on the Bus to check I.D.'s and as often as not attempt to trade belt buckles, insignia etc. for American Cigarettes. Didn’t seem to me to be the blood enemy type, just another kid like us doing what he was told.

#17

And that is the essence of war. Young blokes full of piss and vinegar manipulated or conscripted by much older people, mainly men, to believe that they are doing the work of their god or tribe or nation, without realising that almost always the older people are just advancing their own or their nation’s interests which rarely confer any benefit on the young men, and increasingly young women, and usually work against the interests of those young people who bear the brunt of wars.

There is no nation which ever lived up to its recruitment promise of a land fit for heroes upon return from war.

#18

The appearance is deceptive;) You too ,TG looks like another one breaded good soul. If not to take in mind your deadly military arsenal at home)))

#19

Amen. So we don’t need to kill each other- better to kill own gowenments. A bit of anarchy couldn’t to harm…

#20

I don’t remember correct, but seems i linked you , honored and peace-loved gentlemens the link to the brilliant notes of former air corp of Kwantung army , prisoner of war in GULAG, the Kiuchi Nobuo site . His story in Gulag looks much like a little novel. Wery interesting for reading. For those of you , who still think there were a dath-camp in Syberia. The Kiuchi has told an interesting story of international relations, troubles, grief and joy - i almost start to think he spend his best years in Syberia;))) He just a inner-strong kind man with honor - even nkvd’s personal of camp looks friendly and positively in his pictures.