Falklands/Malvinas slagging match

Thanks PDF, I was more than a little busy on Fri/Sat but in the odd breaks attempted to write a reply to Firefly’s post at Serial #172. When I managed to return I was surprised that the thread had been locked, though the reason as not difficult to fathom.

Anyway, here it is, warts and all.

There may be some truth in this, but on the other hand certain members here seem to take a small amount of pleasure in trying to wind up certain other members, especially other members whose command of the English language and nuances therein is not as good as native English speakers.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure if you mean to include me in that first group, either way no worries, though if I may I’d like to comment.

I don’t believe I’ve ever criticised anyone’s grasp of English unless that was their first language and they’ve insisted on attempting to communicate using that abomination, ‘text speak’ - or txtspk as I’m informed it is written.

On numerous occasions various posters from different countries and linguistic backgrounds have responded to the posts of others with invective and profanity.
It is very easy to respond in a like manner, and some folk do take that option.
Personally I see little point in descending to a playground level, not through any inability to do so as I believe I’m quite able in that are (and probably with a more comprehensive vocabulary of obscenity, :smiley: ) but in general I avoid it.
I neither speak to troops nor strangers in person in that way, (unless push comes to shove,*) and see no reason to begin.

The language I use tends in the main to be easily understood and should anyone be unfamiliar with particular words, they can be readily looked up on a net dictionary or translation engine.

Looking at the posts of the member in question, his command of the English language is far above average and manages mostly to read idiom well. At times, and often within a specific location on this site, an aberrant understanding is read into a certain posts. That his linguistic capability should suddenly experience a drop in quality remains a perplexing mystery but it can always be called as a defence should the moderation staff show ire. I would expect those for whom English is their first language would be held to higher account.

(* ‘Push & shove’ in a real situation, not the virtual world in which we post.)

I’m in full agreement that in this forum there is often a cyclic moment, though I’d venture to suggest that it is due in no little part to one opinion trying to keep to known facts, and another clawing desperately at fantasy straws.
My opinion of those who refuse to accept facts is no secret.

I feel it would be a great pity if the forum was locked or removed, as some of the more modern conflicts are potentially far more emotive than a conflict that was started and finished over a quarter of a century ago. There are of course exceptions, most often between participants of wars, but those on here who have experience of these things have been remarkably restrained.

In the broader picture, and particularly with reference to the two examples you have given, I’m ready to change my ideas on absolutely anything if given a convincing argument.
Indeed, my views on the problems endemic to the ME over the past sixty years were given their first major change when working there. First hand experience is an extremely good furnace in which to reforge ones opinion.

I think that just about all of us who served in the Province met people and saw things that changed our outlook on what we thought to be the case on our arrival each time. In some cases it strengthened a bias, in others it undermined it.

My view, for what it’s worth, is that despite the odd outburst this is a valid forum as a number of salient points on both sides have been made, and to close it down would only serve to perpetuate disinformation, myth and hatred by leaving allegations unchallenged and questions unanswered. Such concealment of fact will always hinder reconciliation.

(Expletive edited.)

Once again I thank you for posting to prove my point.

[quote=“Panzerknacker”]

Ha, ha, ha, so I didnt own a 12 gauge and a 22 magnum ?[/QUOTE]
Your words, not mine.
Could you be so kind as to point out exactly where I have stated that you are not the owner of a twelve bore shotgun and a .22 mag rimfire please ?

While I have never disputed the fact that you do possess at least the two wpns mentioned above, what anyone can learn from the link is that photographs have been posted of somebody holding first a shotgun and then a rimfire rifle, it doesn’t actually prove you own them.
It is unimportant whether you own firearms or not.

You misunderstand when, why and how one would use a .177 air wpn.

Why on earth should a picture of a pistol frighten me ?
I have no phobia about photographs, pistols or indeed anything else.
If you think this is normal behaviour, am I to understand there are certain photos that you find frightening ?
It would explain much.

Quod erat demonstrandum.
:smiley:

Well, I am happy to see the thread is once again open. After months of not visiting the forum as I had a difficult year. Yesterday and thanks to the flu, I had the oportunity to interact with you people again.

I was under the impression we were well pointed to continue, and sparked for the post abour Astiz, I wrote an extensive post but it was impossible to upload due to the quarry happened when I was writing. Now I am going to re-read that post as I might have been carried out last night and wrote too much for this forum… perhaps there is no reason to explain too much as most of you guys are not Argies like me.

All I will say for now is that the “Dirty war” was as the name indicates a REAL WAR… there were atrocities commited for BOTH SIDES, always victims altough not all of them innocents.

I remember one night around 1975, when with my parents we “counted” 12 bombs going off in the area as they were clearly heard and some caused some rattling.

There were atrocities, YES. 30,000 dissapeared people, FALSE, The Sábato report, specially commisioned to investigate the dirty war when democracy came back determined the real number was close to 9,000… I know it is still an atrocity, but why multiply it fom more than 3? All this data can be checked on the final report called “NUNCA MAS” ( Never more) which was published for the public domain and was a best seller at he time.

Good to see the sub forum opened once again even when I scarcely participate in it as the subject is a bit “scratchy” for my taste.

Pánzon.

So, here it goes… I hope is not going to cause problems here or anywhere. Just trying to give CUTS the view of somebody who was an adolescent then. It reffers to CUTS post number 177.

Hello Cuts, During the 80´s, there were a couple of military moves ending in the law of “Obediencia debida” (that would be more and less “owed obedience”) in which they limited the punishments mainly to the ones that issued the orders, thus covering the arses of several characters like the “Angel Rubio”… If all happened as u described above, then he is the most stupid of intelligence officers I ever heard off… he knew very well he was wanted for the “disappearance” of Nuns Leonie Duquet and another French religious woman… Thus the problems with France, who anyway did not hesitate in providing Exocets, SuE´s, etc… Sweden wants him for the disappearance of a girl by the name of Dagmar Hagelin. He “infiltrated” the organizations trying to do something about their “desaparecidos” (which later on would develop into the "Mothers of Plaza de Mayo and others) and as a consequence there were several disappearances blamed to his “double agent work”… and he wants to be seen in a picture “signing”… Arrogant son of a mother and who knows how many fathers… But let us be fair once again… in spite of the brutalities committed by a number of military and paramilitary forces against the then “rebel” forces, I have also to say that the terrorists were ruthless beasts thirsty for blood. The amount of attacks they carried on, on a long war were terrible and with lots of innocent victims. They were not “freedom fighters”… they wanted to take over the country and turn it into another communist foothold in South America. There were brutalities on BOTH sides, but only the military went to trial… and you know what? The “freedom fighters” then. Now are the government… the former Governor of the Province of Bs As. was up to a year ago Felipe Solá… chief of intelligence of the “Montoneros”…:(Responsible among other things for the sinking of the DDG SSma Trinidad when being finished). The current minister of defence… is the widow of Miguel Abal medina, another terrorist “capo”… So the new government is going after the criminals… 30 years later, but they are going for them. And the law of “obediencia debida” was struck down and now all of them are going to jail… Astiz among then and I am pretty sure they are going to give him what he deserves. UFFF… What a post, I hope not to create controversy; I am just telling the story as I know it… BOTH sides are to blame… that was madness… which at the time suited very well the agendas of the “big players” in the world… Remember “he is OUR BASTARD!”… To finish, I will tell you a bit of a personal story… I did spent several summers sunbathing not five meters from Astiz, he was a member of my same yacht Club and thus we used to go to the same beach in Mar del Plata… We all knew who he was… I never spoke to him nor even looked into his eyes… but I did “observed” pretending to sleep in the sun… And he has a stare that freezes your blood… I was certain at that time that that guy was capable of ANYTHING… What a post… I will regret it I am sure. Pánzon.

Pánzon - that was entirely appropriate to the forum, thanks for that, it was really rather interesting.

As for the 30,000/9,000 numbers, I think applying Occam’s Razor is the best approach here. Because these people disappeared, and at the time asking questions about them was made difficult by the government, then only the government will have had good figures for how many were vanishing. Since they were denying it, all such figures will come from those opposed to the government - who both will have a very poor idea of the numbers and the incentive to inflate the figures. By the time the true figures come out, the false ones have entered popular mythology and become generally accepted.

Cuts - while I can see and understand what you’re doing and why, please take it outside this forum. It is not related to the subject at hand and is only going to cause trouble. Off topic or PMs only please.

Noted PDF.
I think it’s best to avoid PMs as the few I have received need a parental guidance warning ! :smiley:
I’ll set up a separate thread just for these ‘difficult’ questions as the off-the-wall posts are designed to divert attention from the questions in point.
At least I really and truly hope that’s the reason behind the hysteria.

Looking back through various fora I note that I, amongst others, have in a number of threads, been ready to draw a line under the puerile behaviourand start afresh with a buried hatchet.
The unforseen problem was that our young armour breaker seems only ready to bury it in my, (and a couple of other posters’,) heads !
Such are the delights of correspondence with the uninitiated.
:smiley:

Thanks for your illuminating insights from your personal experience.

However, from the perspective of an outsider whose nation had no involvement or interest in the Falklands conflict or internal politics in South America, apart from receiving a large number of political refugees as a result of the dirty wars there, I think a full picture requires people to examine the involvement of America in the dirty wars.

America was, post-Cuba, obsessed with suppressing what it thought was communism and every socialist revolutionary movement wherever they appeared. It was up to its neck in much of what happened in South America, notably Chile when Allende was toppled, from funding and supplying arms to providing intelligence to training counter-revolutionaries, interrogators and torturers at the School of the Americas to controlling various operations in various countries.

If America had instead stood up for the human rights it espouses in its constitution and public pronouncements but repeatedly denies people in nations America thinks threaten its interests, the dirty wars would probably have been a very different and much less damaging exercise to the people and institutions in several South American nations.

The dirty wars were, in part, proxy wars by America against perceived communist threats in the same way that Vietnam was under the impetus of the same anti-communist outlook. The difference is that America left it to the local elements to run the war in the local powers’ and America’s interests.

Once America, belligerently standing for democracy and all that is good in the world according to its own publicity, gave the green light to and actually encouraged and assisted abuses of human rights in the dirty war nations, it is not fair to place all responsibility for such abuses on the nations where they occurred with American connivance and assistance.

Uh… Panzon you fell in the trap, shame on you.

Panzon seemed to me to be participating very reasonably (in itself somewhat remarkable in this thread) in a reasonable discussion, and making a very useful and informative contribution to it.

For those of us who have no idea of what trap was laid and why Panzon deserves shame for falling into it, could you explain?

Easy Panzon , no regrets , no shame , you had the Courage to tell part of our History ( like it or not ) the way it was - Some may agree or not - Thats up to them -

That seems to be perfectly correct to me in endorsing Panzon’s commendable honesty about his nation’s past.

I can’t imagine why anyone would say he should feel shame about it.

Honesty can never be shameful.

Sometimes unwise, but never shameful.

For those of us who have no idea of what trap was laid and why Panzon deserves shame for falling into it, could you explain?

Is very clear, the trap was set by cuts to make us discuss the internal conflict of Argentina in the Falkland Malvinas area.

Even I know Panzon have good intentions he wasnt intelligent enough to avoid this trap.:rolleyes:

The entire reason the invasion happened when it did (thus allowing the British to launch an effective counterattack) was the weakness of the Argentinian military government, which was at least partially related to the internal strife in Argentina at the time. Therefore, Pánzon’s comments are entirely in order.

Furthermore, I note that this is the second time in this thread recently that you have insulted other members. Such behaviour is NOT acceptable on this website without good evidence (which you have singularly failed to provide), and certainly not in the Falklands/Malvinas sub-forum, which due to the behaviour of certain members we have found it necessary to moderate very tightly indeed. I would strongly suggest that you either make a radical change to your posting style in this sub-forum, or cease to post at all. If you go on as you are you will be responsible for this forum being closed for good.

Is very clear, the trap was set by cuts to make us discuss the internal conflict of Argentina in the Falkland Malvinas area.

Even I know Panzon have good intentions he wasnt intelligent enough to avoid this trap.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

A few of points here:

  1. Regardless of anyone’s paranoia and fantasy, I had not set any ‘trap.’
  2. The situation in Argentina had a direct bearing on the war, and Pánzon’s post is even more appropriate here when one takes into account the deployment of the criminal Astiz on the Islands.
  3. I’m not here to blow smoke up anyone, but Pánzon has shown himself to be chivalrous, quick-witted and intelligent. Besides, he has actually served his country.

Now back to the topic.

Edited for tense.

Aw my gawd:( … I regret causing turmoil, but I challenge ANYBODY to rebate what I have written. I liked very much the phrase Unwise but not shameful. Perhaps I have been unwise… but we are talking and I talk the truth.

I have not fallen in any trap laid by anybody, after months absent from the forum due to personal reasons (father one and a half months in hospital in Berlin and myself by his bedside), wife with Leukemia, the effects of the world crisis that does not leave me a moment to rest as I need to produce “something” everyday and like people use to say "to fill the pot ".

Suddendly, I receive a notice of a post by a “luxury” that we have over here which is Enrique. on the Air War thread… and that, combined with my terrible flu, gave me the time and desire to surf a bit in this thread and I felt that I wanted to clarify a few things… I think I was quite balanced as I DID spread the blame for what happenned on both sides and I did it, as it was because that was a WAR in which the “freedom fighters” almost took over a full province, the province of Tucumán ( accented on the “A”) and commited countless atrocities against innocent people… Let us not forget that the military and paramilitary did not started the dirty war until there was a point of no return and after being ordered by the then constitutional presiden of the nation, M. I. Martínez de Perón… In fact, the order was to “eliminate” the terrorist mennace, and was not Isabel Perón, but Dr. Italo Luder, accidental president in absense of the president ( he was the president of the senate and thus, the vice president of the Nation after the death of General Juan Domingo Perón in 1975). The military coup came when the government did not know what to do and the oposition in the person of their leader Dr. Ricardo Balbín expressed that they had “no solutions”… Very bad idea to call armed forces to fight terrorism… but they were marxists, trained in Cuba, Libia and the eastern block and exceptionally well trained and armed by “rogue states”.

If somebody thinks that I did “took the bait”… please re- think… I wanted to explain that the “dirty war” was a WAR, and not a “fumigation” process that is all.

Astíz stirs my blood… and I sincerely thought that I could speak about this character as I actually “KNOW HIM IN PERSON” and my personal intention was to make a line with guys like this pig on one side, and the bravest of Argentines, who went to a war with the then 3rd or 4th world´s military power at the time without asking questions… Not many of the “pigs” fought in Malvinas. And to compare them with our brave soldiers, constantly “insulted” calling them “kids of war” when every single one of them was actually a hero on my eyes. I just wanted to SEPARATE the veterans from the “vermin” which was running around with uniforms at he time.

Most of those “vermin” have already died, some of them from horrible diseases who consummed them to prepare them for the grill in hell… the rest of them, the new government, as I said, made like a personnal crusade to struck down the laws who covered their arses during a long time and they are going to jail, one by one… and they keep no predicament on the new generation of officers ratings that conform the Argentine Armed Forces today.

So, let us be fair, should the “dirty war” never happenned, probably Argentina would be facing similar dangers as for example Colombia has been suffering since decades… They did “exterminate them”, with the horrible consecuence of thousands of civilian casualties… and hundreds of service people killed too… they used to “assault regiments”. can you imagine such daring? Could you imagine the quarters of the Welsh Guards taken by storm?

They had to be extremely though and that was the perfect primordial soup for the appearance into scene of lots of psicopaths and a forge for them too… some of those psicos were in government by the force of arms… but hey were complying to a direct order from the acting persident of the nation as the leftists were ruthless and they did not know what to do, it was impossible to fight them with the police…

It was really a “catch 21”… such a mess…

I also want to say that I regret the fact that the only the military are being prosecuted, some of the ruthless brains of the former “guerrila” are rampant either making money or directly in government positions…

The terrorist of then, should also be prosecuted, funnily almost the whole “cuppola” suvived and thrived… they left their fighters to take the blunt of the fury…

Messy subject, but since we are gentlemen, we can discuss this as we can discuss other things, I am willing, more now, when I think I did say that is a personal opinion and to clear once again that the subject should be left aside as it had nothing to do with the conflict as they were far away from there with exceptional exceptions.

I really do not know what it has to do with the conflict more than the worry of the Islanders at the thought of being governed by that people.

With regards to the involvement of the USA, Henry Kissinger himself said to the junta… " whatever you are doing, do it fast" as he knew Carter was coming.

I consider the goverment of the USA, due to their interest being it political of in defense of their interest responsible for the blooming of dictators at the time, they used them like pawns in a chess game and they fell for it. So they share part of the blame for the dirty war. I did mentioned it before a bit crypticaly when I said, “our bastards”. refering to “their” dictators. This is for the co-forumer who seemed not to catch the “twisted ball” of my idiom.

Perhaps we should go to next issue, is not it?

Pánzon

Being honest one of the reasons why I don’t tend to hang around here is Panzerknacker’s attitude. I did used to enjoy talking with Panzon and others, still chat with him occasionally via email. But Panzerknacker does have an attitude problem.

Judging from previous comments, nothing would please him more than to have this closed down. And it would be a great shame for those able to discuss in a reasonable, and a double shame because just recently a couple of interesting characters from both sides have dropped by.

Not my forum, its yours but I sincerely hope you won’t close it down now that its getting kinda interesting again.

Not unwise in the slightest, I for one, appreciate you speaking frankly and expressing an opinion on a complex subject. Its given me something to think about and I’ll reply presently.

I just want to clearly say that in no way, I have felt insulted by Panzerkncker, neither other member of this forum.

And also want o clarify, that I have not had the honor to serve my country more than a civilian, I say this because a co- forumer, seems to think so. I am just an amateur historian who is digging on the facts that are coming into view in order to analaize such catastrofe.

But do not misunderstand, Argentina wants the Malvinas/Falkland back and they will keep on insiting until that time comes it is a reality that it would be only by diplomacit means, I sincerely hope the British will sit down an talk as a lot of people thinks that the Argentine claim for the Malvinas /Falklands is quite good.

Only god things will come for the islanders as they would be tretated with white gloves an give unprecedented benefits.

I stand down for now to se how u guys react.

Pánzon.

Good thinking , I would add to your thoughts of peacefull conversations that they must take place in a three party meeting and those are Great Britain , Argentina and the Islanders ( which actualy are the only ones born in the Islands , they are the only natives ) And if we think straight they are the ones that should make the final decision ( we like it or not ) - We can bring up all our reasons of why we state they are Argentine Islands , so will Great Britain , but the ones that will incline the balance to one side or the others are going to be the Natives of those Islands - And Personaly that is why I think conversations have never gone beyond the point of just being requested and never happen -

With my respects Enrique