Falklands/Malvinas slagging match

The point is often made, for whatever purpose, that Britain invented the concentration camp in the Boer War, but usually it is wrongly equated with Nazi death camps.

Britain’s general intention in the Boer War was to remove women and children, notably from areas subjected to the scorched earth policy, so that they could not provide support to the Boer guerrillas. This was rather more successful than originally envisaged as disease and neglect, whether through contempt for the internees and or bad administration, killed many of them. That, while deserving of condemnation, was not the intention of the policy, whereas in Nazi death camps (as distinct from Nazi concentration camps) it was.

Thinking that the same term used by different nations at different times necessarily means the same thing makes about as much sense as thinking that the German Democratic Republic was equivalent to the democratic republic in the United States, at any point in US history.

Oddly enough, people who castigated Britain for inventing concentration camps often tended to be the sort who castigated America for being a failure as a democratic republic while not bothering to get wound up about the absence of both democratic and republican elements in the German Democratic Republic.

I am not defending the appalling suffering and needless deaths Britain imposed upon Boer women and children in the concentration camps, but equating those camps with Nazi death camps is ridiculous.

On a different aspect, it is debatable whether the Boer War concentration camps would now fall under war crimes or crimes against humanity. Either way, Britain’s conduct was appalling. But not evil like Nazi death camps.

While I have to agree that he British have committed war crimes, they didn’t invent the Concentration Camp.
The Concentration Camp was actually invented by the Spanish during 1896 in Cuba, to separate the rebels in the province of Pinar del Rios from the civilians who supported them by relocating all the civilians into guarded enclaves, the Americans were next in 1900 with Concentration Camps built in the Philippines for civilians who were suspected of supporting Filipino rebels.
It wasn’t until January 1901 that they were first built by the British with fenced areas and blockhouses used as they were in prisons to observe and prevent attempts at escape

No nation has a monopoly on rounding up civilians and killing them.

The Duke of Cumberland isn’t well remembered in Scotland, notably Culloden, nor Cromwell in Ireland, notably Drogheda. I don’t think one can draw from these and other bloody events in British history that it is a British tradition to massacre civilians.

Here, we’ve tended to keep to less well organised killing of small groups of Aborigines, but the result is the same.

Rather than pointing to nations which have rounded up civilians and killed them, it would be quicker to construct a very short (possibly empty) list of nations which haven’t. Leaving aside nonsense nations of a few hundred thousand people in the Pacific and Indian oceans (which nations sometimes have a rather florid history of rounding up people and killing them), I look forward to entries for the ‘Nation With the Cleanest Hands When It Comes to Killing Civilians Award’.

The US used what we could call “concentration camps” as early as the first part of the 19th century against its Native Americans. But in those cases, as with the British refinement during the Boer War, the camps were a counterinsurgency tactic as a means to win a war rather than a means to an end to destroy a local population. The term was coined to describe the tactic to counter the Boers…

Ummm… The British committed a lot of war crimes

If that is correct then I dont know why some british members of this refinated forum feel so distressed/disturbed/dismayed/annoyed/amazed when I said the british forces in the Falklands did commited war crimes, speciallly when my claim are based mostly, mostly in two british sources with the back of some argentine witness.

Everybody needs to take account of that and re-read all this topic again from the early pages, I am convinced that it would be a eye opener, and the neutral observer ( side note: the neutral observer is not an image of my alter ego as an SF suggested but the reader who is not involved sentimentally in the war, no british nor argentine) will realize that most of the crimes were commited by the UK.

No PK the “crimes” you claim were committed consist of

a) Alleged execution of POW. All of which were extensively investigated by Soctland Yard, including travelling to the islands and Argentina to interview potential witnesses, exhuming bodies for forensic examination and not one shred of evidence has been found to back it up.

b) Mercy Killing. The incident at Goose Green where someone shot a man burning to death to put him out of his misery.

So the “crimes” consisted of something that didn’t happen and something that whilst unpleasant would be what any fundamentally decent human being would do in those extreme circumstances.

However, it has been confirmed that:

a) Argentine troops shot men struggling in the water after their helicopter was shot down.
b) Mohammed Ali Seineldin freely admits to shooting a man in the back whilst under a flag of truce, although he claims it was Col H Jones it was in fact Lt James Barry.

Nevertheless, most British commentator on this forum would simply acknowledge that these events could be written off as happening due to the fog of war. No rancour has been expressed at all. The facts are that most outside commentators, indeed I did publish a comment from a neutral observer, would acknowledge that the Falklands War is remarkable for the simple reason that both sides basically obeyed the rules of war.

However, it has been confirmed that:

a) Argentine troops shot men struggling in the water after their helicopter was shot down.
b) Mohammed Ali Seineldin freely admits to shooting a man in the back whilst under a flag of truce, although he claims it was Col H Jones it was in fact Lt James Barry.

The helos shooting is a very recurrent one, incidentally I asked you some months ago were you find the information saying that subleutenant Esteban “…cannot control his men”…until this date you have failed to provide an aswer ( and a link preferably)

In regard of the other, well I had heard wild stories in this subforum, but this is the first time some related with Seineldin, again I would ask if you can provide a link or other source backing your statement.

Panzon knows Lt Esteban and has already confirmed it.

PK I got the names slightly mixed up, it was Gomez Centurion not Seineldin, in Malvinas, un sentimiento, Seineldin Mohamed. You posted a link yourself

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4983&page=14

And don’t ask again, you know they’ve already been provided.

PK I got the names slightly mixed up

Slightly ?, you mixed it up badly

And don’t ask again, you know they’ve already been provided.

I wil ask anything, at any time, at any moment, about any subject, at any member in any topic, but thank you for you suggestion.:cool:

Fecking hell, this bloke doesn’t give up does he, an unusual trait for an Argie!!

Mr Knacker, get it into your head once and for all that a few incidents happened on both sides that were due most likely to confusion. For a full scale hand to hand combat war, the Falklands War was the cleanest in history.

Poor loser, syndrome - common among non-cricket playing nations. :army:

Not quite.

The Australian cricket teams of the past couple of decades would have to be the worst losers, and winners, in probably any sport and especially in cricket.

They reversed Churchill’s commendable ‘magnanimous in victory, defiant in defeat’ principle.

Alas, I show my age…I’m such an old-fashioned chap…living in the past! :lol:

I can’t blame you.

England used to win Tests in the past. :smiley:

Yes, when sport was sporting! :lol:

CLR James:

“I never appealed for a decision unless I thought the batsman was out, I never argued with the umpire, I never jeared at a defeated opponent…”

Well, I don’t want to convert this thread into really vicious bickering which will make the Malvinas opponents look like schoolgirls, but those of us not even a gleam in our fathers’ eyes at the time still haven’t forgotten Jardine and the Bodyline Series. :wink: :smiley:

Dear old Frank Maher, a great lawyer, teacher and all round very nice man who taught me in later years, used to base his first year law lectures at Melbourne University on ‘the laws of cricket’ to try to explain how law worked. Fortunately I wasn’t in his first year classes but a fair few sheilas I knew were, and they had bugger all idea what he was on about. Particularly when he went all soft when recalling some great moments he had witnessed at the MCG, which had bugger all to do with the subject but made him happy in recall. Which just goes to show how cricket helps us all to understand life and law. :smiley:

Yes, but …that was the exception to the rule, and the ‘Bodyline’ tactic was later banned.

Dear old Frank Maher, a great lawyer, teacher and all round very nice man who taught me in later years, used to base his first year law lectures at Melbourne University on ‘the laws of cricket’ to try to explain how law worked. Fortunately I wasn’t in his first year classes but a fair few sheilas I knew were, and they had bugger all idea what he was on about. Particularly when he went all soft when recalling some great moments he had witnessed at the MCG, which had bugger all to do with the subject but made him happy in recall. Which just goes to show how cricket helps us all to understand life and law. :smiley:

He sounds like a jolly decent , if wistful, chap.

The new Empire has, for some tme now, ben exporting its culture of ‘Winners’ and ‘Losers’ such is the power of the media coupled with the wealth generated through advertising.

I don’t want to convert this thread into really vicious bickering which will make the Malvinas opponents look like schoolgirls,…

You and I would never sink to that level. :lol:

By the way. Speaking of schoolgirls, I believe the new St Trinian’s are rather tasty…
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00409/St_Trinians_409219a.jpg

…and rather sporting:

http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/q-photo-belles-of-st-trinians-games-hockey-new.jpg
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/FiN0mcM0Ev8/St+Trinians+World+Premiere+Arrivals/4o3YVo5Gi0P/Cheryl+Cole

Yeah, and so were landmines.

Doesn’t mean they weren’t useful. :wink:

This may be a rather Anglo thing, but suspender belts and stockings always work for me. On, or off. :smiley:

Although I prefer your and other photographs to Ronald Searle’s (a former POW of Nippon) original scratchy drawings of the girls of St Trinian’s.

Well do I remember august journals such as Spick 'n Span, which helped us while away time doing nothing in the guard room while guarding nothing from nobody with nothing more threatening than a bayonet frog. I seem to recall expressions such “PHWARRR!!!” and “GEDDALOADOTHIS!!” and ‘LOOGADERTITS!!’.

There is almost no level to which I would not sink. :wink:

Okay, Big Boy! :lol: