For a moment there, I thought my wife had stumbled upon this site. 
Seriously now.
Iâm a neutral observer, who also remembers the development of that stupid conflict and the dismay I and others felt about such a large military enterprise and so much loss of life over some unimportant specks of remote land.
Be that as it may, the fact remains that Argentina started it and everything that happened thereafter was a case of Argentina reaping as it sowed. This was an unfortunate shock to a dictatorship which thought it could get away with a naked land grab to distract attention from internal political problems and which, apparently, even now succeeds in presenting Argentina to Argentinians as the victims of Britain rather than of their own ill-considered aggression.
My perception is that both sides had a few bad moments where some things were done which rightly upset the other side, but none of it was out of the ordinary in war nor really deserving of the attention given in this thread to them being âwar crimesâ.
Compared with WWII actions in which Britain was engaged (Argentina not being a belligerent in that war), the Falklands / Malvinas conflict was, as Zulu Zulu said, the cleanest in history, for things done by and to British forces.
Given Argentinaâs conduct towards internal opponents in the same era, I donât see why much lesser actions, on any brutality scale, by the British engender such outrage in some modern Argentinians. Except to the extent that Galtieri and Co were successful in the old art of creating an external enemy to distract attention from them as the internal enemy.
I think much of the reason that such heat is engendered in some people on both sides of the debate is that it was a war in an era where neither side was used to casualties at the rate incurred in that war. Compared with WWII, the various events in that war would rarely have rated a headline in a newspaper, but it was the biggest and most intense war for both at the time and since.
At the risk of stating the obvious, war is not conducted according to civilian or moral philosophersâ notions of proper social, moral, or legal conduct. It is the very opposite of all those things. War is conducted by people trying to kill other people at the greatest possible rate necessary to win. The concept of âwar crimesâ is in itself rather nonsensical as war is the greatest mass violent crime humans can commit against other humans. Where is the rationality in outlawing dum dums but allowing artillery?
I donât see much evidence of war crimes in the Falklands / Malvinas, but I do see evidence of actions which could be interpreted as low level âcrimes against humanityâ by some Argentine forces against some Falkland Islanders. But, compared with the experiences of civilians in Europe and Asia in WWII as armies rampaged through their areas, it was still quite a modest experience.
I think some people on both sides of this debate would benefit from standing back and contrasting what happened in the Malvinas / Falklands with WWII, and realising that instead of focusing on selective bad events which happen in all wars it was a war which, as Zulu Zulu said, was the cleanest in history.
Phew!!! :lol:
Yeah!
Talk about feeling a bullet snap by your head!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Gentlemen, Iâve warned you before. Serious discussion ONLY in this forum, banter, etc. should be taken to off-topic. Any more and I lock this thread for 24 hours again.
One has to take the topic seriously in order to have a serious discussion. Frankly, I have difficulty with that.
Serious and vigorous discussion in threads on this topic area tends to get them locked.
I thought it useful to lighten it up a bit, before it went into a predictable shitfight.
Is there a happy medium, where vitriol and humour are excluded?
Apparently not, so I think itâs best to close this thread for good, thus avoiding any further shitfights, vitriol, humour, and, most of all, discussion.
There has been some truly excellent, mature discussion in âThe air warâ, so it is possible. Unfortunately it seems to require a level of maturity rarely present in this forum 
Now that everyone has had time to calm down after an afternoon nap or three, this thread is reopened for what will probably be the last time.
But it could get shut down any time anybody gets stroppy, and without warning, and permanently. So behave.
It could get also get shut down if people continue to plough the same furrows which are now close to penetrating the earthâs volcanic crust after endless ploughing without any seeds of new life being sown.
Some original discussion please, or the boredom meter will kill this thread.
As could complaints or discussion about moderation of this thread.
I am very calm, my post ( 225) was very calm and kind of âclosing speechâ.
Actually as more old I get calmer is my character.:rolleyes:
Fecking hell, this bloke doesnât give up does he, an unusual trait for an Argie!!
Thank you, is nice that you noted this.
Yes, well, donât age too quickly or youâll be asleep.
Thank you, is nice that you noted this.[/QUOTE]
Zuluâs comment could be funny in other circumstances, but in this sensitive thread such comments should not be made as they denigrate the service and sacrifices of the Argentinian forces who fought well and were injured and killed in that enterprise.
Such comments might provoke understandably and justifiably hostile comments from the Argentinian side, so they will not be tolerated.
As stated previously: Behave.
The future of this thread is in the hands of the people who have the greatest interest in discussing it. If you ignore the moderatorsâ numerous warnings to conduct yourselves properly, this thread will be closed permanently.
Now, try to disappoint me by showing me that I wonât have to close the thread because these warnings have been ignored.
I find this thread highly provocative. It is a thinnly, veiled and hostile attempt, by its author, to denigrate the British troops involved in that unfortunate war.
Instead, what he ought to be considering is the good that came from the actions of the Britsh Forces in forcing the demise of the facist regime which was torturing and murdering his own people.
I have no dislike of Argentinian people: Iâm even a fan of the authors other thread âArgentine Modelsâ (which is yet another, but clearly identified as, a fantasy topic) but this is blatant provocation and no amount of window dressing by him or the MODS, whom I know are trying to remain impartial.
If anyone wishes to discuss the war, then by all means discuss it, but letâs please stop the conjecture. If the author has any evidence of war crimes then let said author take said evidence to a lawyer and begin legal proceedings. Instead of insulting the sacrifice of my countrymen and, by association, myself and the other British contributors to this site.
The future of this thread is in the hands of the people who have the greatest interest in discussing it. If you ignore the moderatorsâ numerous warnings to conduct yourselves properly, this thread will be closed permanently.
Furthermore, the Britsh members of the site, many of whom are former military personnel, were never trained to turn the other cheek to a hostile foe.
Scupper it!
This regime committed abhorent crimes against the people of Argentina. The same regime that invaded the Flakland/Malvinas Islands. This same regime that the British were supposed to roll over and accept as the true govrnment of the Falklands. If one wishes to investigate crimes and and administer jsutice, what better place to start:
Argentina is to convert the former juntaâs biggest torture centre into a museum of its crimes, officially confronting the horrors of the military dictatorship that ruled the country for seven years.
With relatives of the dead and surviving victims looking on, President Nestor Kirchner announced the move at the colonnaded, whitewashed Navy Mechanical School (Esma) in Buenos Aires.âI come as president to beg forgiveness on behalf of the state for remaining silent during 20 years of democracy,â he said. âThere is only one name for those who run concentration camps such as the Esma and that is murderers.â
Human rights groups estimate that up to 30,000 people disappeared as the 1976-1983 dictatorship sought to eliminate Left-wing radicals.
About 5,000 people were tortured at Esma, one of 300 secret detention centres, and many of them were then drugged and thrown from aircraft into the Atlantic to die.
Some pregnant detainees were kept blindfolded after giving birth so they could never see their children, according to government and rights reports. The babies were then handed over to military families for adoption.
Juan Cabandie, now in his twenties, told the crowd: "I was one of 10 babies born here and taken from my motherâs arms by doctors of torture.
âTwo months ago, I finally found out who my parents were. Now I know that I am the son of âdisappearedâ people, I want to look their murderers in the eye. I ask for justice for them and that this never happens again.â
A woman whose son died in Esma said: âWhat has happened here today will bring me some peace, but it cannot bring my child back. I know the names of his murderers and I want them to pay by spending the rest of their lives in prison.â
The museum is the latest element in a campaign by Mr Kirchner, who was arrested by the junta as a student, to cleanse Argentina of the legacy of its brutal past.
He began his term in office by sacking the heads of all the armed forces and ordering a purging of the federal police. He went on to annul amnesty legislation, paving the way for junta members to go on trial.
and more:
US Declassified Documents: Argentine Junta Security Forces Killed, Disappeared Activists, Mothers and Nuns
US officials were split in blaming the Generals, made considerable efforts to find and save victims, but then dropped demands to find those responsible
On the 25th anniversary of the disappearance of leaders of the internationally renowned civil disobedience group the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, recently declassified US documents show that the Embassy in Buenos Aires had evidence of the Argentine Military Juntaâs responsibility in the crime. The US dedicated substantial resources to establish the whereabouts of the victims and protect their lives, but once it learned they had been killed, it dropped the demand to the Junta to find and punish the perpetrators and discipline officers condoning it.
With all due respect, where do we draw the line at closing threads we find highly provocative?
I agree the thread premise seems nihilist in light of certain actions by certain armed services in their own countries against their own people, which certain thread starters seem to sort of condone with their signatures and postingsâŚ
But I donât believe good message boards close threads because they piss people off. IMO
find this thread highly provocative. It is a thinnly, veiled and hostile attempt, by its author, to denigrate the British troops involved in that unfortunate war.
Instead, what he ought to be considering is the good that came from the actions of the Britsh Forces in forcing the demise of the facist regime which was torturing and murdering his own people.
I have no dislike of Argentinian people: Iâm even a fan of the authors other thread âArgentine Modelsâ (which is yet another, but clearly identified as, a fantasy topic) but this is blatant provocation and no amount of window dressing by him or the MODS, whom I know are trying to remain impartial.
If anyone wishes to discuss the war, then by all means discuss it, but letâs please stop the conjecture. If the author has any evidence of war crimes then let said author take said evidence to a lawyer and begin legal proceedings. Instead of insulting the sacrifice of my countrymen and, by association, myself and the other British contributors to this site.
Well definately you mask had fell Bravo, a pity really, you always try to give an image of funny, intelligent and joyful character, but with this same post you had show that you are just another âfanaticâ like me.
Let me add if you think that I made this topic because a supposed âdislikingâ or attemped âdenigrationâ against british people or soldiers you are extremely, extremely wrong.
Okay, so why did you make it?
Well, okay, Nick, but then one can hardly complain if people react to said provocation in, say, the manner of Zulu Zulu.
Personally, I thought his comments quite restrained, given the circumstances. I have tried to ignore much of what has been posted to this thread up until now, but there is a limit.
I am not asking for the thread to be closed, but I wouldnât loose any sleep if it was. My saying âScupper itâ was merely a polite comment.
No, on both accounts.
First of all I was demonstrating how easy it is to dig up dirt.
Secondly, your motives are obvious.
Iâm nothing like you. I havenât even referred to you by name, even your site name, and I certainly havenât accused you of being a fanatic - as it happens, I donât think you are a fanatic (after all, you think shooting rabbits is the macho thing) - just an ingrate. We British get rid of the evil Junta for you, and there you go having a pop at us for it.
If you want to investigate crimes, why donât you investigate those that have been committed by your own people against your own people. Iâm sure that their are many perpetrators of those crimes roaming about Buenos Aires.
Iâm sure if that happened in my country and I was so concerned about bringing people to justice as you appear to be, I wouldnât be wasting my time with some flimsy story about some supposed war crime in some obscure place. Iâd be too busy chasing after the bad guys. Or is it that you, as with the Junta, are attempting to distract attention away from that?