Favorite Waffen SS division

That’s not entirely true. Waffen SS prisoners were taken and a significant number of Germans were captured in all phases of the Bulge, although there may have been a counter-massacre in retaliation…

I’m not sure of the reason for the Canadians killing HJ troops, but it may well have been in revenge for the killing of prisoners also…though whether or not the HJ did kill Canadian prisoners I don’t know.

I don’t know the specific units, but around a dozen Canadian soldiers were murdered around a French chateau while being used as targets by a sniper around the time of the Normandy landings…

The RAF probably did not have a ‘racial’ issue with Germans, but some may have felt the people below were getting their just deserts, just as some SS men may have felt the ‘untermensch’ were getting theirs. Conversely, some RAF men were doubtless troubled if not appalled by their bombing of civilians, just as I am sure some SS men were unhappy with their tasks…

I don’t disagree, but the RAF was conducting strategic area bombing as opposed to the specific targeting of civilians. We can argue about the results, and even express a certain disgust with ‘Bomber’ Harris. But I find it difficult to compare directly with Nazi atrocities…

Actually both 12th SS and Canadians acted partially barbaric in Normandy. The HJ division executed dozens of their Canadian POW’s (see e.g. the Kurt Meyer Case resp. the Abbaye Ardenne massacre of June 8, 1944). The Canadians however also shot POW’s (a high-ranking Canadian officer, Major-General Christopher Vokes, admitted that) and/or tied captured Germans to their tanks as human shields (also on June 8 soldiers of the “Inns of Court” regiment tied several Germans to their tanks’ turrets, among them one-armed WW1 vet Colonel Luxenburger of Panzer-Lehr-Division who died of his wounds after the Canadian tank was knocked out).

Part of the problem was that blaming the Jews for Germany’s problems was obviously wrong. It doesn’t matter that such views were sincerely held, they had no basis in fact and serious contemplation of the issue would have revealed that, Those who joined the SS did not bother to examine the facts.

Courage or skill is not the issue; humanity and decent behavior is. Whether some SS soldiers fought for their country or not, the SS will forever be tainted by the brutal and inhumane acts perpetrated as a result of the principles underlying the establishment of this organization.

Yes you can be brave, but when a man chooses the organisation with full knowledge of its beliefs that undermines him. At least the men & women of the Heer often didn’t have a choice, most were conscripted.

Interesting mate, I’ve heard of the “human shield” incident but thanks for providing some specifics. Google led me to this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=iER3n7NkAPoC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=Colonel+Luxenburger&source=bl&ots=dE7npmAsSt&sig=UwhrsIYURYIoJlOb6kX7CQMe2F8&hl=en&ei=usEuTa6WNISKlweXrdTHCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Colonel%20Luxenburger&f=false

Wizard, as always an interesting discussion. I wonder if you have any objection to continuing this in a different thread residing in the Civil War forum? since neither of us has a favorite SS Div. and this might not be the thread for it. However, I’m moving and am busy with work at the moment, so it might be a bit…

All Civil War related posts have been moved or copied to this thread:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?11607-Roots-and-Causes-of-the-War

So the Inns of Court regiment was actually British? Guess the German WW2 literature -and myself- owe an apology to the Canadians.
Usually it was the other way around. Everybody wearing any kind of “Tommy helmet” had to be English.

I suspected the “Inns and Courts” moniker to be more likely British than Canadian…

Not to someone whose native language is not English. :oops:

Most English speakers here wouldn’t recognize such subtleties unless they have connections to the Commonwealth militaries. I only know because I’ve read a bit about the Canadians in WWII and I sometimes get their news (living in a border city) about the Forces today. Most Canadian units have more regional titles such as “The Winnipeg Rifles” IIRC…

Here’s a list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_units_of_the_Canadian_Army

I can happily report that the Inns of Court regiment is still knocking about today albeit in a much reduced form. It’s now a troop and capbadged Royal Signals, they only just survived the latest round of cuts to affect the territorial army.

Btw thanks for the link I found that fascinating, good to see the traditional regimental names of both the British and French military being carried on. Well done the Canucks!

I have no objection as the topic really does not belong in a WW II forum. It is not really my area of interest, so any discussion will probably be short lived.

Hi everyone,
It has occurred to me that a good contender for a ‘favourite’ SS unit is the Kurt Eggars war correspondant battalion.
Although spread in small groups over other units they were a distinct formation with their own cuff title.
Many of the most dramatic photographs of the SS were taken by these men, both posed propagada shots that are interesting for their views of uniforms, medals, equipment and key figures and also photos taken in the heat of battle.
I think that anyone who is interested in the W-SS (or maybe in WWII at all) owes them a debt really.
Also, they were a really international unit, with even men from allied nations serving in their ranks.

I just learned that C Squadron of the Inns of Court Regiment was attached to the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division in Normandy. That is probably where this common mistake in German literature derives from.

By the way, the Inns of Court are essentially a sort of club that all Barristers join when they become Barristers (assuming I’ve got it straight). That being so, it sort of suggests that the members of this regiment were all/largely lawyers, and hence could be described as bloodsucking parasites. This being so, I can quite believe they’d do this sort of thing :wink:

They were known as ‘the devil’s own’ because the unit was mostly comprised of lawyers. It’s not so true these days, according to my mate who’s in what’s left of that unit.

Never heard of the Inns of Court Regiment before, but thanks to the magic of Google I found what seems to be a reliable history.

The modern history of the Regiment begins in 1859 with the formation of the 23rd Middlesex (Inns of Court) Rifle Volunteer Corps; it became the 14th Middlesex in 1889. The Regiment was attached, in its later years, to the Rifle Brigade and also formed part of the 2nd London Volunteer Brigade and the “Grey Brigade”. In 1888 a mounted infantry detachment was formed and became known as “B” (M.I.) Company. A contingent of 30 mounted infantry, 19 cyclists and 1 signaller joined the City Imperial Volunteers for service in South Africa during the Boer War. In 1908 the Territorial Force was formed and the Regiment became a Territorial unit, the 27th Battalion of the County of London Regiment (Inns of Court), but almost immediately it was changed into an officer training unit under the designation Inns of Court Officers Training Corps. The Regiment had an establishment of one squadron of cavalry (I.C.O.T.C. Squadron, formerly “B” (M.I.) Company) and three companies of infantry. In 1914 the Inns of Court Reserve Corps was formed consisting of former members of the Inns of Court Rifle Volunteers, and in 1917 the 1st Cadet Battalion, Inns of Court, was formed to train boys under military age.

In 1920 the Regiment was reformed with an establishment of one squadron of cavalry and two companies of infantry and in 1932 its designation was changed to the Inns of Court Regiment. The two infantry companies were converted to light tank cavalry squadrons in 1937 and two years later formed the Royal Armoured Corps Wing, Sandhurst. In 1939 the mounted squadron joined a cavalry training regiment in Edinburgh, but was disbanded in 1940. Between 1940 and 1943 the Regiment was the Armoured Car Unit of the 9th Armoured Division and from 1943 it was under the direct command of 1 Corps, the assault formation of 21 Army Group and later led the advance of 11th Armoured Division. On 1 April 1947 the Regiment was again reformed, as the Armoured Car Regiment of the 56th (London) Armoured Division, T.A., later to become the Reconnaissance Regiment of the 54th East Anglian Division. In 1956 the Northamptonshire Yeomanry was reduced to one squadron and amalgamated with the Inns of Court Regiment as “the Northamptonshire Yeomanry “D” Squadron, the Inns of Court Regiment”; and in 1961 a further amalgamation occurred when the Regiment and the City of London Yeomanry (Rough Riders) united under the title “Inns of Court and City Yeomanry”.

The “Rough Riders” had been formed in 1901 as the 1st County of London (Rough Riders) Imperial Yeomanry, but its name was changed to the City of London (Rough Riders) Imperial Yeomanry in 1902. Thereafter the Regiment’s name changed to City of London Yeomanry (Rough Riders), then City of London Yeomanry Battery, R.H.A. and 11th (City of London Yeomanry) Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, R.A. before reverting to City of London Yeomanry (Rough Riders) prior to amalgamation. In April 1967 the Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve replaced the old Territorial Army. The Inns of Court and City Yeomanry was reduced to one squadron and formed part of the “London Yeomanry and Territorials”; the regimental band was retained based at Lincoln’s Inn and attached to the newly formed Royal Yeomanry Regiment… In 1968 the London Yeomanry and Territorials was disbanded, but a cadre of the Regiment, consisting of 3 officers and 5 other ranks, was retained in the Royal Armoured Corps thus ensuring the continuation of the Regiment’s name in the Army List and the retention of headquarters and mess at Lincoln’s Inn. The cadre, however, was disbanded in March 1975. In 1969 71 Signal Regiment (Volunteers) was formed from disbanded yeomanry regiments and on 1 April No. 68 (Inns of Court and City Yeomanry) Signal Squadron was formed with an establishment of 8 officers and 85 other ranks and as such the Inns of Court and City Yeomanry still existed in 1977.
http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=15900&inst_id=118&nv1=browse&nv2=sub

I’m inclined to think it wasn’t a regiment composed entirely of barristers.

Anyone who’s had much to do with barristers (and I’ve been briefing them for the past 33 years) knows that while there are some nice and gentle souls among them, some of them are arrogant arseholes and many - probably most - have the probably necessary conceit and unbounded self-confidence which isn’t far under the skin of similarly independent professionals, notably surgeons, solely responsible for the consequences of urgent professional decisions which may have catastrophic consequences for others, and occasionally themselves.

The commander of a regiment composed entirely of barristers as ORs, NCOs, and officers would find it easier to herd single-handedly a few hundred feral cats in a thousand acre field. And the feral cats would be more obedient. :wink: :smiley:

The magic of Google hasn’t given me any info on the background of the members of the regiment, but I suspect that barristers probably formed a relatively small component.

While there were lawyers - both barristers and solicitors - who enlisted as ORs in Commonwealth forces, I suspect many of those enlisted men ended up as officers in combat units.

From wide reading, I get the impression that lawyers were over-represented as an occupational group in intelligence analysis and staff positions, which isn’t surprising given their high degree of analytical skills and attention to detail.

An interesting lawyer/soldier was Ned Herring, who after a distinguished military career in WWI and WWII, with a distinguished inter-war legal career, was recalled from his position as a lieutenant-general in New Guinea to become the Chief Justice of the State of Victoria in Australia.

http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A170522b.htm

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~herring/edmund.htm

The regiment wasn’t but the descendents sub unit today was known for it.
see the link for their website http://www.army.mod.uk/signals/organisation/8826.aspx

Back when I was student-scaley I used to train alongside them every so often. There’s still a good number of lawyers but they don’t dominate anymore, you get a lot of city types there. As well as a few wannabes, and i’ll explain that. The Lincolns Inn sqn is thought of being quite posh. The rank & file tend to be professionals i.e. lawyers, stockbrokers etc as a result you get a few who are trying to elevate themselves into a better social circle. Not as posh as the HAC but reasonably posh.

Appears to be a ?female? right (of picture) front with riding rather than military cap.

Last rank is wearing red and white tops contrasting with those in front of them.

Do you know why?

As a lawyer, I am wounded by the notion that stockbrokers are (a) a profession, and (b) my equal. :wink: :smiley:

I would put bookmakers way ahead of stockbrokers on that scale, if only because bookmakers use their own money to back the bets placed with them; have fewer opportunities to manipulate the market in which they operate; horses are more honest runners than companies; jockeys and trainers pulling horses aren’t even infants compared with the managers running, and ruining, companies for their own benefit; and bookmakers have to deal directly with their customers.

As the husband of the daughter of a bookmaker (okay, he was an illegal bookmaker - what we call SPs ((Starting Price)) here, but he was still a bookmaker, and a bloody good one) and as someone who spent some time with him and other illegal and legal bookmakers and their associates, and as someone who has spent some time with stockbrokers and their ilk, I’d rather be compared with a third-rate bookie’s penciller than the most succesful stockbroker around. At least the penciller has an honest occupation.