Favorite Waffen SS division

World War II German Military
#121

I’m very much with you there, I can’t understand all this SS adoration. Ok, so they had nice uniforms but they were all members of an armed force who had some pretty dodgy and repugnant views on race and ethnicity. When they weren’t busy losing to us or the Russians (my brigade then a division gave the supposed supermen of the 12th SS a bloody good snotting in Normandy) they were busy hounding and murdering some of my fellow Juden, that’s right folks, ich bin jude (well only a 16th).

Granted they fought and died hard, but then if capture by the Russian pretty much meant a death sentance anyway then you would too. A very interesting bunch of individuals but personally I think choosing my favourite waffen ss division akin to choosing my favourite inmate in the secure wing of Parkhurst.

#122

I now need to clean the coffee off my screen…

#123

Bitteschon!

#124

Exactly.

#125

One of the things I used as a discussion tool in a module looking at the study of wars, was the rise in popularity and change in perception regarding the Waffen-SS and their portrayal that started during the 1980s.

A surprisingly small number of authors have been responsible for it. The worst was a history of Das Reich which failed to even mention Oraqour other than a footnote which pointed out that the events there would not be mentioned as it was not part of their ‘combat history’.

Its interesting, though disturbing, to see the change.

#126

It is a little disturbing, as I’ve mentioned previous, I find it odd why people have a lob on for an armed force that had very dodgy ideology, a tendenancy towards murder and lost their war?!?

Often people say its the uniforms, in which case I suggest they enrol in St. Martin’s college of fashion or look at British dress uniforms, they’re far fancier and no two regiments are alike and unlike the SS we won our wars (mostly).

#127

There is a certain ‘kewl’ factor with the SS. People tend to see them as ‘bad guys’ in much the same manner as Star Wars stormtroopers. A lack of knowledge of what they really did is the first issue, but lets not be blinkered here, all elements of the German Armed Forces committed atrocities during the war.

Then comes the whole book parade, with endless ‘coffee table’ books full of pictures, but light on text with titles like ‘Black Knights’ and similar.

I think that Geobbels and the propaganda ministry did such a good job, people are still sucking it down now.

Gordon Williamson ‘Aces of the Reich’ book uses the Propaganda Ministries version of Villers-Bocage word for word, despite it being utter fiction…

Why let history get in the way of a good story. I suspect most in that ministry went on to work in Hollywood…

#128

I think part of the fascination about Waffen SS can be explained by the first impression people often get about them: You know, the whole “elite warrior” -image.

And, they fought hard: partly because of they were brainwashed, partly because of they had to, partly because their training was good, partly because of during the first years the selection process let in only the best candidates. Of course, during the last year some Waffen SS units consisted of one-legged one-eyed 4-foot-tall Mongols, but it doesn’t seem to tarnish the “elite” brand (I’m talking about the public opinion here).

The were underdogs (always popular) with some pretty wacky ideas (always popular).

Sure, the idea of “favorite Waffen SS division” may seem odd/offensive to some, but I do know several persons who started learning about WWII because of “Best Waffen SS unit” or “Best WWII tank” -threads, and slowly worked their way through different layers and topics, ending up buying books about the Holocaust.

George Washington was a slave owner, who carried out scorched earth tactics against Native Americans, etc. Does that mean that we can never ever admire his bravery or positive activities?

#129

‘Positive Waffen-SS activities’… Where there is a thread fraught with danger.

#130

Well, George was involved in some brutal instances. But he actually freed his slaves towards the end of his life. And the ‘scorched earth’ tactics were under his command, but not directly so (assuming you’re talking about the American War of Independence as opposed to his colonial Virgina militia service in which he almost single handedly set off one of the French and Indian Wars). And scorched earth was used on both sides in that conflict and was often carried out by Indian allies on both sides…

I’m sorry, but I do not think the comparison of an imperfect man, but one who helped establish modern democracy can be compared to a bunch of fascist hooligan *****s who fought for a genocidal maniac is a very valid one…

#131

We should always compare apples with apples.

What was done or thought in 18th Century America isn’t very relevant to what was done in 20th Century Europe.

Not least because in the mid-20th Century the world had moved on and the Nazis were the only ones on the planet engaged in racially and religiously motivated and highly organised extermination camps. Even the Japanese, for all their random and racist brutality, never descended to that level.

I can’t think of any person or organisation in American, or British or French or other WWII Allies’, history who or which engaged in anything remotely like the Nazis’ exterminations, whether in occupied territories or in the extermination camps.

#132

George Washington: Not comparing, just pointing out that each and every one of us has done good and bad things – and we should be able to talk about both of them. :slight_smile:

Positive Waffen SS activities: For example, men of the 9th SS Panzer Division risked their life (during the Operation Market Garden) to make sure that injured allied soldiers (cut-off paratroopers) were evacuated from the battle zone and that they received good medical care. Are you saying this was not a positive feat carried out by the Waffen SS?

If you’re talking with the Allied WWII veterans in person for a longer period of time, you sometimes get them to admit that unarmed German POWs were regularly killed if it was a tight spot – an often ignored fact publicized by Beevor in his latest book – but once you place your tape recorder on the table it’s impossible to get them repeat that admission. And that’s how it goes, veterans on the both side will go to the grave claiming that they never did anything wrong, when, in reality, there were moments when both sides did whatever it took to stay alive, and naturally there were moments of great unselfishness and generosity – even towards the enemy.

Passion is a great thing, it can stir up great conversations where you can learn a lot from (if it doesn’t get too heated ;-)), but you should always be able to see the different sides and shades of the things. I’m currently arguing on this forum that T-34 was not an efficient tank, and at the same time in real life I’m arguing with a friend that it was a great tank. How can one understand anything about history, if one cannot see/understand the both sides of any given argument/conflict/atrocity.

#133

To use the old adage, one swallow a summer does not make. Whilst their actions with regards to British paratroopers are commendable they’re still a bunch of racist murdering scumbags. By no means am I implying the Allies were perfect but then again the Allies didn’t practice mass murder on ethno-religious grounds on such an industrial scale that Henry Ford would have been proud. And for those that say ‘oh that wasn’t the waffen ss that was the einsatz truppen etc…’ those mass graves in eastern europe didn’t fill themselves.

#134

one swallow a summer does not make … they’re still a bunch of racist murdering scumbags.

Wow.

For example the Finnish Waffen SS battalion (1200 men) had very strict selection process, during which the Finnish authorities tried to cut out as large percent of men with right-wing background/opinions as possible. In spite of decades of ceaseless scrutiny, no atrocities has ever been linked to those men.

Most of those men just wanted to fight godless communism and help Finland to gain back the areas lost to the Soviet Union. The Finnish Waffen SS troops complained a lot about the cruel handling of the soviet POWs, and other issues.

Are calling those men racists or murderers, in spite of large majority of them having no right-wing or racists views at all?

#135

Like I said, one swallow a summer does not make. One battalion from an organisation of thousands big deal. And as for the assertion that this particular battalion wasn’t that right wing and just wanted to fight Russians, oh that’s ok then. Imagine the scene in Helsinki…

HARRII: ‘Hey Lars, I really want to get back at those Russian fellows’

LARS: ‘Well Harrii, I’ve heard of this German mob called the Waffen SS and they’ve got really cool uniforms and they’re hiring!’

HARRII: ‘Cool, what’s their deal then?’

LARS: ‘Well they hate Jews and other untermensch, believe in one supreme race (although that doesn’t stop them recruiting said untermensch when it suits them) and follow this right wing dictator chap called Hitler’

HARRII: ‘They sound like a reasonable bunch, let’s join them and fight communism…’

End scene to the strains of Wagner’s Gotterdammerung

If what you’re saying is true those Finns must have been the most niave battalion in history. They knew what they were joining.

#136

What about Latvians, Lithuanians, etc, who hated Germans, hated Russians, and had lived under the occupation of both countries. When the Red Army started to advance, many decided to join the Waffen SS, because it was the only way to get arms and be able to defend their country against the communism. They didn’t even belong to the Waffen SS during its attacking phase, they only defended their country, most getting killed in the process, soon. Are you calling them murderers?

What about the men who served in the Waffen SS before the war, without ever firing a shot in battle, are you calling them murderers?

What about the thousands of men who from different countries who hated racism, who disliked Germans, but joining the Waffen SS was the only way to fight the godless communism (and by pleasing the Germans help their occupied country to get better treatment from the Germans) which they disliked even more (anti-communism was a big part of foreign Waffen SS recruitment propaganda). Are you calling them racists?

What about the units like 1st Cossack division (consisting of russians), which didn’t even want to part of Waffen SS, but was nonetheless placed in the Waffen SS system. After the war they surrendered to the Allies, who promised they won’t ever be turned over to the Soviet Union. Soon, that exactly what the Allies did, and most of the cossacks were executed by the Russians. Are you saying that that type of Waffen SS units - which didn’t even see much acion - were murderers or racists?

What about the pure Jews who served in the Waffen SS, are you calling them racists?
source: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=68429&start=15

those Finns must have been the most niave battalion in history.

If it was so easy to see what Hitler was planning, then why did countless British and American politicians (who had much better understanding of the world than regular persons) praise Hitler before the war (when the decision to send to send Finnish men to the Waffen SS was also made)?

#137

I think you are purposely missing the point.

The organisation, the SS, is hardly something that to me, befits a thread termed ‘favourites’.

What would be better a term is perhaps ‘What Waffen-SS Division performed the best?’ as that seems to be what most are saying.

You can split hairs all you want over the personnel. If you want to consider the Waffen-SS on a personal individual basis, it may take some time… Buts its a fair stereotype to make that most divisions have a checkered, at best, record. Most have some alledged war crime attributed to them.

You want to turn it on an individual basis, to try and prove not all SS-men were ‘murderers’, a purely provocative term. I agree, not all were, indeed the majority were not actual murderers, but they are implicit in the actions of the Third Reich due to their association of ones of its most obvious and crucial symbols.

As for 1st Cossack Division… They are alledged to have committed atrocities against Yugoslavian civilians and this is pointed out by Otto Kumm in his history of the 7th SS Division.

As for Allied crimes… Yup. It happened… I know it did for sure as my own grandfather committed one.

#138

You’re David Irving aren’t you? All bold text that follows is me;

Because they were trying to appease him and I think few could have predicted the war, plus 99% of politicians are weasels and will say anything to make friends or win votes. What is undeniable is mein kampf was there for all to see and they all knew the ideology that was spewing out of the 3rd Reich. Again Kristallnacht should have been a good indicator of the regieme’s character. Yes there were individuals who weren’t out and out baddies, but IMHO anyone who wore a SS uniform is tainted.

#139

I agree generally with student-scaley’s and The Fiendish Red Baron’s posts so far.

One cannot separate individual good deeds by Waffen SS members from the bad purposes for which it was formed, and to achieve which its members volunteered, to argue that it wasn’t a bad organisation in pursuit of bad aims by a bad regime. http://ftp.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-03/tgmwc-03-23-07.html

Conversely, one cannot separate individual bad deeds by Allied soldiers from the good purposes for which the Allies fought against the rabidly racist and systematically brutal German and Japanese to argue that the Allies were engaged in a bad enterprise by bad regimes against good people with good aims.

#140

As Gordon Williamson likes to say they were ‘Hitlers Samurai’, his ‘Black Knights complete with code of chivalry’.

He dont half right some amount of bolloxs.