“Separatist fighters and Russian troops looted and set homes ablaze in Georgia… Hundreds of South Ossetian rebels with some Russian army personnel went house-to-house in villages near Gori. They torched houses and looted buildings, witnesses said…”
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“Human Rights Watch said its researchers in South Ossetia had witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians.” http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jNBg25n8qYjQyiQ-osgnmBJH6xSQ
“In the port of Poti on the Black Sea on August 13, the Russian military blew up three coastguard ships belonging to the Georgian border department in the full view of journalists. A ship given to the department by the Bulgarian government was also destroyed. The day before, several Gerogian vessels had been sunk out at sea.” http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=346145&apc_state=henh
[QUOTE=alephh;131512]
(TBILISI, Georgia) — A Russian military convoy thrust deep into Georgia on Wednesday and Georgian officials said Russian troops bombed and looted the crossroads city of Gori, violating a freshly brokered truce intended to end the conflict
Is the “Georgian officials” a reliable source?
Because it’s a very slow-moving news-media.
They are just European retards media…
You right the CNN/BBS is more quick and operate
“BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze.”
“Ossetians separatists” sounds cool
I think the proud Osetians freedom fighters, who come to kick Georgian ass after the Genocide in Tshinvali is not bad too;)
“A column of 70 Russian military vehicles, including military trucks with anti-aircraft guns and artillery, as well as armoured personnel carriers, pursued by a large contingent of the world’s media, left Gori on the road to Tbilisi and turned left a few kilometres outside of the frontline Georgian town.” [includes a photo of Russian convoy heading from Gori to the directon of Tbilisi]
The armored personel carriers , pursued by a large of the world’s media sounds really good.
Somebody said that Russian army forbid the World mass media to be here:)
But as we see they Journalist already “travels” together with Army.Good news.
“Separatist fighters and Russian troops looted and set homes ablaze in Georgia… Hundreds of South Ossetian rebels with some Russian army personnel went house-to-house in villages near Gori. They torched houses and looted buildings, witnesses said…”
Yea the S. Osetian rebels are actualy danger boys:)
Well nobody promised the GEorgians that Osetians will love them after all atrocities that they have commited couple days ago.
“Human Rights Watch said its researchers in South Ossetia had witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians.”
i have a question- where were this f…ng Human Rights Watch when Georgians commited Ethnical terror in Tshinvali?
May be the Human Rights Watch are the bunch of Racists who take in consideration only the rights of GEorgians.
Very strange selective approach.
“In the port of Poti on the Black Sea on August 13, the Russian military blew up three coastguard ships belonging to the Georgian border department in the full view of journalists. A ship given to the department by the Bulgarian government was also destroyed. The day before, several Gerogian vessels had been sunk out at sea.”
Oh damn the Last georgian warship have been sunked
Don’t worry the American would have presented them new few soon.Absolutly free, Becouse the state-bankrupt has NO money except the Amerian credits:)
“Bush is ordering his country’s military forces to Georgia to begin a “humanitarian mission to the people of Georgia”. American aircraft and naval forces will be deployed… A C-17 aircraft, spearheading the effort and carrying humanitarian supplies, is currently on its way.”
Well i just hope they were not mean Wearponry supplies as a “humanitarian mission”
No you misunderstood me I was just saying that maybe it could be more then Oil. It could be about land. I know the oil is in their , but We have no idea what they are after. I don’t think in russian, and I don’t know what they are thinking, And maybe It could be all that I have said. And everything everyone else has said. So If you still think Im am forming a false idea about the Russian’s please help me but That is my Idea on the Georgian crisis.
Is the “Georgian officials” a reliable source?[/quote]
No, but all the british, finnish, american, french, etc (reporters, etyj-people, citizens-in-area) are, especially when enough of them report the same thing.
That’s the trouble with the things you see in Russian news: Even if you’re on the very spot, on the very moment - you often just don’t see anything happening that Russian mass media is claiming.
For example, when the Estonians, with upmost respect and care, relocated the bronze statue (the fact one could see with own eyes, or watch it from footages) - at the same time Russian news claimed it’s being destroyed.
Or when news-channels and Internet is full of photos and live-footage of Russian planes dropping bombs inside Georgia, what’s the point, even 24 hours later, try to deny that Russian planes are not dropping bombs inside Georia in Russian mass media.
When troubles start, it would be so great, just once a century, to see Russian news media report something that somebody else of the 6.6 billion population could also see with their own eyes.
Everyone who sees something with their own eyes while the Russian media claims the exact opposite, time after time, will lose their faith in Russian media completely over the years. That’s the issue. It’s not about what you read on Internet, it’s about personally seeing that Russian claims are bogus. I feel sorry for people who try to understand what’s happening in the world by watching/reading Russian news.
Of course each side actively in war/conflict try to “report down” their own losses, push their own view, etc. But making up stuff to create more hatred in the years to come seems pretty criminal to me.
And I’m not saying that Georgia is completely innocent in this conflict. I do understand that they want to take full control of their own county - the very same way Russia wanted to take full control of their own county in the case of chechen. But I do not appreciate Georgian officials making claims that are without evidence (or at least seem to be at this point), like that Russians are setting up concentration camps as they march on - those kind of statements just “live on” and make the future much more difficult and hate-filled.
Yea
But all of the “british, finnish, american, french, etc” were reporting ONLY from Georgia:)
With sanction of GEorgian officials.
That’s the trouble with the things you see in Russian news: Even if you’re on the very spot, on the very moment - you often just don’t see anything happening that Russian mass media is claiming.
I have no ttrouble with the Russian news, becouse i watch the Euronews and CNN/BBS also.
So i can get the MORE OR LESS objective view on what is going on there.
i admit the russian News are not always objective, but the CNN absolutly biased also pretty clear fro me.
For example, when the Estonians, with upmost respect and care, relocated the bronze statue (the fact one could see with own eyes, or watch it from footages) - at the same time Russian news claimed it’s being destroyed.
No Russian news just told - thay were going to dismating the monument to replace it to other place.
BTW i do many russian well do understand the Estonians , and i personaly.
So there is nothing wrong.
I know the Russian mass media used it as political show, but such things do alsmost every state.
Or when news-channels and Internet is full of photos and live-footage of Russian planes dropping bombs inside Georgia, what’s the point, even 24 hours later, try to deny that Russian planes are not dropping bombs inside Georia in Russian mass media.
dropping bombs on the military object of GEorgialike airfield, bases and est- this is bit other thing.And nobody deny it .
I know it from most beginning, and told about it honestly.
You can’t break the Agressor while he use their Army to shot at our soldiers.
And in Tshinvali has bee fully crushed - is the YOUR NTERNET full of the photos of destroyed Osetian city?
No?
So maybe you use the biased part of Internet?
When troubles start, it would be so great, just once a century, to see Russian news media report something that somebody else of the 6.6 billion population could also see with their own eyes.
Well i don’t know how many of 6,6 bln World population really believe to the CNN/BBS.
But something promts me, that the 1,5 of CHineses and about the 1,5 bln of Arads do not really get the CNN as a “reliable source” ( especially when the CNN give its oppinion about Arab-Israeli conflicts:))
SO as you can see the world population indeed have the pretty different concepts about true, somethimes very differ from what you usialy see on your TV
Everyone who sees something with their own eyes while the Russian media claims the exact opposite, time after time, will lose their faith in Russian media completely over the years. That’s the issue. It’s not about what you read on Internet, it’s about personally seeing that Russian claims are bogus. I feel sorry for people who try to understand what’s happening in the world by watching/reading Russian news.
Don’t need to sorry.
Just keep in mind ONE simple thing - NOTHING can be 100% true, even what you geting from your TV and Internet.
Just use it and you can more easy understand the events.
I don’t watch ONLY TV and as i said not ONLY Russian TV.
But the Political point is pretty clear for me. I hope a bit later we should learn the true about hostilities.
Of course each side actively in war/conflict try to “report down” their own losses, push their own view, etc. But making up stuff to create more hatred in the years to come seems pretty criminal to me.
What do you call the making up staff?
And I’m not saying that Georgia is completely innocent in this conflict. I do understand that they want to take full control of their own county - the very same way Russia wanted to take full control of their own county in the case of chechen. But I do not appreciate Georgian officials making claims that are without evidence (or at least seem to be at this point), like that Russians are setting up concentration camps as they march on - those kind of statements just “live on” and make the future much more difficult and hate-filled.
OK , right point.
But you still believe them about “unfair bombing of Georgian cities and attempts to cupture WHOLE Georgia”?
This is also part of propogand informational war agains Osetians and Russia.
So as i said - we probaly would know all the true just LATER.
After when the special comissions have investigate all the crimes- ONLY then we would have probably learned the true.
But not now, taking the GEorgian news as a “source”.
So can you point me to 10 news items in CNN that are made up, that have no reality behind them at all? I’m having extremely trouble finding even one. But it’s easy to do from Russian news.
So why are all the repoters taking pictures of civilians houses bombed down? Why are two western reporters dead after being in civilian building in Gori? Why did Russian artillery bomb Gori after Georgian troops left it?
Part of the Tshinvali was destroyed when Georgian troops secured their motherland, and stopped separatist-terrorists shooting innocent people (as any country would have done). Part of the Tshinvali was destroyed when Russian troops attacked over the borders of the independent Georgia (those borders are acknowledged by Russia) and attacked the city.
You’re absolutely right
Many countries have their “blind spots”. And while CNN may not be making up stuff, they sure annoy the heck out of me with their extremely selective news reporting about Middle East issues :-/
That’s correct - that’s why I’m so worried when Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia all report that Russians and Ossetians are looting places, killing civilians.
I do not see Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia all report that Georgians are looting places, killing civilians.
Of course, areas/cultures like Russia/China are poorly understood, of course there are lot of differences. In some cultures looking directly in the eyes is insult, in other cultures it’s polite. But killing a person is killing a person.
But if you take Russian media, British media, Arab media… and compare them, then you see that Russian media almost exclusively reports information from Russian sources. But British and Arab media are reporting claims by Russians, by Georgians, and by more-or-less independent reporters.
I call “making up stuff that’s untrue” a criminal activity. Especially if you’re a powerful leader in the world.
I think Russia unfairly bombed Georgian cities.
Why were the Russian convoys so relentlessly advancing towards Tbilisi? Because at some point they were ordered to advance to Tbilisi. If Russia was not capturing whole Georgia, why were the troops ordered to advance towards Tbilisi? If Russia was just seizing South-Ossetia, surely there were no need to head to Tbilisi with large convoys, no need to go outside South-Ossetia, at least that much.
So, there seem to be some credibility to the claim that Russia was capturing the whole Georgia - at one point in time.
Georgia sucks as a news source, but Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia (some of them more friendly towards Russia than America) are not seeing major offenses by Georgians, but they are seeing and hearing of lot of offenses by Russians and Ossetians.
Georgians in the tiny village of Dvani awoke Wednesday to the sound of doors being battered down. When they looked outside, Russian-backed soldiers from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia were pillaging the village, home by home. From the local school, they hauled away computers, from the grocery store, virtually everything. En masse, villagers fled… A few minutes later, when Merab Merakishvili looked back toward Dvani, he saw his village engulfed in flames. “I was at my neighbor’s house and looked out the window and saw a soldier breaking into my house They were shouting and screaming, so I ran,” Merakishvili said.
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Villagers reported that South Ossetian separatist soldiers, at times accompanied by fighters from Russia’s North Caucasus region, have looted homes and set them ablaze in Dvani, Tamarasheni and Shindisi.
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Dzhoni Patriashvili, 37, said the separatist militia fighters came in two trucks into Dvani. One man was gunned down when he looked out his window… Patriashvili said, adding that he barely escaped being gunned down himself. “I was walking through the village, and the Russians who occupy a church up on a nearby hill saw me and began shooting at me. I crawled down a ridge, saw the trucks coming and decided it was time to escape.” http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-georgia_village_rod.aug14,0,5606654.story
Gori’s day started with rumours of an imminent Russian arrival… We were filming at an apartment block when we heard the first shouts that the Russians were here. Then came the slow, steady rumble of the heavy vehicles, and just beyond the trees, we saw them. Packing up our gear we headed for the edge of town. Then from other nearby villages, others started to arrive where we had gathered. They told stories of masked men with guns stealing cars and valuables.
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Mariam Shulbatshvili was gasping for breath when she showed up. She had come from the village of Karaleti but as she and her family were driving out they were waved down and ordered to stop. “Men with guns stopped us and told us out to get out of the car. We offered them money but they said they wanted the car. We were very frightened. We lost everything, our documents. Money, everything.”
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A group of six women were distressed and angry. They told us they had heard from relatives in the villages of Mejvriskhevi and Karaleti, and were rounding up the men and older boys. “Khazacs and Ossetians in uniform are coming into the village, putting sacks over the heads of our men and slitting their throats. They’re taking everyone men, women and children. They’re dragging the attractive women away.” http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/20088146530258390.html
That’s is what I have been hearing/reading from the reporters in South-Ossetia…
Or if Indonesia was providing arms and training to a faction that wanted autonomy inside Northwestern Australia?
And I wish someone WOULD better train the Mexican forces in their battle against drug cartels…
Even if it is, it’s rather different to the US training Georgia or Russia training Mexico situations as Iran isn’t on America’s border or in striking range of America.
Oddly enough, a future by-product of a worsening of the current situation could be Russia providing technology to Iran to give it the range to try to strike America, as a new form of proxy wars between Russia and America.
Yes, but Iranians have probably killed US troops in Iraq, even if they were renegade factions not directly under gov’t control…
It’s all to do with perceived threat and counter-threat, complicated by threats to extra-territorial interests.
There’s very little threat coming from the US, as the gov’t has spouted little more than rhetoric, and there is no doubt that the Georgian offensive/counterattack (or whatever it was) was not sanctioned…
True. Which makes you wonder what particular madness possessed Georgia to start it up in the first place?
One of the things that is also not reported in “Western” medium is that the Ossetian separatists were in a recurring game of provoking the Georgians with indiscriminate firing…
Not something I know anything about, but given the huge profits Russia has made from gas and oil to Western Europe it might well want to corner that market for itself, or at least exclude a new source of supply.
So, basically they use American choppers and flashlights? I’ve yet to see one US sourced piece of equipment…
Russia build a industrial reactor , not conducting a researchs.
For a tidy profit.
BTW, what is the valiant Russian gov’t --that supports indigenous groups rights against their territorial occupiers-- doing supporting the Khartoum regime in the Sudan as they conduct what is a “genocide” against the Dharfur region…
You just repeat the Georgian propogandic shit.
And you repeat the Russian official line of propagandist shit…
It was a US journalist’s speculation on NPR actually. (Hardly the domain of the Bush admin)…
Nobody even speak about pipeline. And nobody planned to attack it.
See at facts…
If someone just wished - the pipeline have been alredy damaged since the first day of conflict.
Actually it has been bombed, and missed. But is heavily defended with those S300s you speak of?
Pretty much what happened with East Timor, where Australia distinguished itself by allowing the Indonesian invasion in 1975 (which is the only time I wanted 150% to join up to fight the good fight, which Australia was too cunning to have). Australia stood by for a couple of decades afterwards while Indonesia ran amok there, largely because it suited us to have semi-fascists there rather than possible communists or other people with untidy ideas. Until we were more or less forced to go in because of popular pressure by right thinking people here, unfortunately assisted by our reluctant zombie Prime Minister who FUBAPB in dealing with Indonesia and bloody near got us into a war, which would have delighted some US arms suppliers to both sides as they could see how their equipment worked in action, with better (but not US standard) specs allowed on Australian planes than Indonesian ones.
Difference between Georgia or Canada / Mexico is that we trained Indonesian troops up to the point of war in 1975, and afterwards.
Wasn’t (isn’t) it a brilliant idea to train our most likely enemy so it undestands all our tactics, commands, signals, weapons, equipment, etc up to battalion level, even brigade level (we could have done divisional level, if we had a division ), when we don’t learn anything about theirs?
Would better training overcome corruption?
So?
Pakistanis have been fucking your and my troops over in Afghanistan from day one, but they’re still our valued allies, despite harbouring bin Laden sympathisers and very probably bin Laden himself with the knowledge of the ISI or other elements of power in Pakistan.
I’ll hold fire on that.
Last I heard was about sixteen hours ago, which was that America was flying in troops and aid to Georgia for humanitarian relief. Sounds like another provocation to Russia by the US to support Georgia, even if it’s not intended to be by the US. Or maybe it is intended to be, because in the end that whole exercise is just an international pissing contest.
You mentioned Afghanistan and shared recently read material on it… that is it.
And the Soviet KGB as well as the GRU and “military advisers” were in Afghanistan all along…
Of course they were. But again you forget that Afghanistan is not USA’s underbelly but Soviet’s. Just like Georgia is Russia’s underbelly now. Rising Sun has mentioned it already.
The last time USSR set-up rockets in USA’s underbelly there was a lot of complaints. So it is not as streight forward as it seems.
From what I’ve heard of Indonesian forces, I doubt you’ve too much to worry about. I guess they don’t do so well against those that can really shoot back…
But yes, Indonesia was another Cold War moral abyss where both Australia and the US turned a blind eye to what were some pretty awful pricks…
Would better training overcome corruption?
Maybe not, but actually, it’s the Mexican Army that might just be the least corruptible. They seem to be genuinely prosecuting a “War on Drugs.” Unfortunately it seems to be a bit of a dirty war and they are either extremely locally popular in the face of rampant Mexican police corruption, or are brutal and alienate the local populace. But a Mexican General was recently sacked because he called out the entire Mexican political systems enabling of drug cartels and lack of action.
So?
Pakistanis have been fucking your and my troops over in Afghanistan from day one, but they’re still our valued allies, despite harbouring bin Laden sympathisers and very probably bin Laden himself with the knowledge of the ISI or other elements of power in Pakistan.
Yes, well the Iranians have also killed a lot of Iraqis with some of their “Quds” forces supporting Iraqi gov’t (militia) death squads and are generally not the most reliable of sorts. But I realize that it is also a very complex situation as US (special?) forces are also supporting anti-Iranian gov’t elements…
I’ll hold fire on that.
Last I heard was about sixteen hours ago, which was that America was flying in troops and aid to Georgia for humanitarian relief. Sounds like another provocation to Russia by the US to support Georgia, even if it’s not intended to be by the US. Or maybe it is intended to be, because in the end that whole exercise is just an international pissing contest.
If humanitarian aid is a provocation, then so be it. But US forces also delivered Tsunami relief among other recent historical disasters…But yes, it is meant to ratchet up pressure on the Russians…
In any case, the Ossetians and Georgians have historically exchanged fire in August…
Of course they were. But again you forget that Afghanistan is not USA’s underbelly but Soviet’s. Just like Georgia is Russia’s underbelly now. Rising Sun has mentioned it already.
The last time USSR set-up rockets in USA’s underbelly there was a lot of complaints. So it is not as streight forward as it seems.
Underbelly or not, they are an autonomous country. And the US also has never invaded Cuba unless you consider the Bay of Pigs debacle an invasion…
There are no real rockets in Georgia bigger than Katyusha ones, otherwise they would have been used. The main reason is that the Russian gov’t doesn’t like the Georgians working with the West…
Give every one of them a broomstick and they should be able to beat us into submission.
Their good forces are fairly good, but generally not up to the best standards of special forces in the West. On the other hand, they have a lot of them.
Their biggest problems are a lack of unified arms (in the sense of weapons, not corps), logistics, and command, which deprives them of the ability to sustain a long war with anyone. Plus sea transport problems which limits their capacity for long term war beyond their islands. I hope.
That is right Gerogia is autonomus country.
An autonomus country with two break away regions. The conflicts were raging there since colaps of USSR and by far not only because of Russian stir up. The antipaty between Gerogians and Abhazians and Osetians has ows routes. So Georgia in modern times - since 1992 - always had these issues. And as some people argue it is a bit open question if unified Georgia has really been existing since 1992 until today. That is one thing.
Specificly the South Osetian issue has an extra dimention to it: the North Osetia is in Russia. Which means that this was has also internal Russian reason to it - Russias central goverment had to assist South Osetian or rist loosing the main ally of the Federal Goverment in Caucasus.
There are no real rockets in Georgia bigger than Katyusha ones, otherwise they would have been used. The main reason is that the Russian gov’t doesn’t like the Georgians working with the West…
Of course they do not. Just like US goverment does not like Cuba.
Not true.
You see all the states of former USSR today works and co-operats with West.
Kazahstan, Azerbaijan, Ukraine and est.
But no other state that almost officialy has declared anti-russian way OPENLY except Georgia.
This madman Saakashvily from most beginning has started to use the anti-russian demagogy, that of course is very irritating for all the russians.
Just think yourself - is the anti-american demagogy of Venesuela welcomed in USA?
I would like to call it as NATO piece of exuipment
For a tidy profit.
But does the everything USA do in world is not for their profit?
BTW, what is the valiant Russian gov’t --that supports indigenous groups rights against their territorial occupiers-- doing supporting the Khartoum regime in the Sudan as they conduct what is a “genocide” against the Dharfur region…
What do you mean?
And you repeat the Russian official line of propagandist shit…
may be , but why your propogandic shit is better than my one?
It was a US journalist’s speculation on NPR actually. (Hardly the domain of the Bush admin)…
i heard Journalist “speculations”, it seem they competite with each other - who can invent more loud and more sensless and cruel “scenario”.
Some of them even predicted the start of WW3.
Tupical shit press speculation.
The Rising Sun know what i mean.
Actually it has been bombed, and missed. But is heavily defended with those S300s you speak of?
S-200 indeed, but you are wrong if think that it is TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE to cover all of the pipe with couple of S-200.
The “attack of oil pipe” was just a Georgian Propogandic “action”, one of many , sensless , but West like to believe in it:)
This madman (Saakashvili) has PUBLICALLY declared - the Georgia is on the front line of fight with Russia
His slogans emotionaly are nearest to F.Kastro or Hitler speechs.
This is tupical little dirty Further, who is going to solve all their inner problem with “little victorious war”. He is sick.
He openly try to involve the Israel and West into conflict… I do understand the American methoods to support “our bastards”, but Nick ,for god’s sake, those bastard should not be … an idiots at least:)
Sometimes you have to watch , whom are you going to support.
), when we don’t learn anything about theirs?