Politics, ideology, and sociology become remarkably and instantly irrelevent once the lead starts flying. Certainly after death. Honor them.
Some found closer to Germany where probably Volkssturm, 13 years to ?
I’m not even sure what this means but in “the real world and actual history,” both the Axis and Allied causes were a swindle. We crap on the memory of German soldiers, but if the Allies had lost then it would have been Stalin’s death camps exposed for all to see. In that case, today the world would have sneering contempt for the memory of every Allied solider just as we do for the German, who were just as noble and decent as the American or British. The truth is that neither side was a noble cause, but noble people fought for them
I would enjoy reading more about what parts of the Allied efforts were a swindle,and why. Will you please expand on that thought?
Well the main thrust of it is that the USSR was at least as great of an evil as the Nazis, and before Hitler had begun starving anyone in concentration camps, the USSR had already killed more than the Nazi regime ever would. In World War Two we destroyed one evil and propped up an even worse and more deviant one. Whenever I say something like this I am accused of being a Nazi, etc, but it’s not that at all.
Everyone loves to think of VE day as the end of the holocaust but it wasn’t. In fact some of Hitler’s death camps were immediately re-opened under new Soviet management, the most famous of these being Buchenwald (not famous for the fact that Russia continued exterminating people… that part is almost universally unknown) which was renamed “Soviet Special Camp #2” and continued to exterminate political undesirables while the world celebrated “the end of the holocaust.”
Not only that but the insane Yalta agreements included a provision for the forcible “repatriation” of Soviet citizens, which included citizens of territory that the Soviets had just seized in WW2. Poles, Czechs, Ukranians, etc. Many of them had fought against the Germans alongside Americans, but unfortunately they also knew too much about the Soviets and Stalin was very aware of the threat they presented to him. American troops under Eisenhower (awful general and corrupt)'s orders ended up having to brutally enforce this “repatriation,” sometimes hunting down families trying to escape like the Gestapo, bludgeoning screaming innocent citizens and stuffing them onto boxcars, knowingly bound for Soviet death camps… while the Allies tried and hanged Germans for the same thing. These people begged for their lives in front of their American allies, and often became desperate to commit suicide when they realized there was no way out.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg. World War Two had no good guys. Only badguys and victims.
I would disagree that there were no good guys, even if I were to agree with your statements concerning Soviet use of German camps that does not implicate the U.S. or Britain in any way. Some citation of source authority would be appropriate with respect to the Soviet’s use of the camps.
Sure it does, to the extent that A) The entire American chain of command knew what the Soviets were doing, and helped cover it up B) did the dirty work of rounding up the Eastern European refugees … precisely as the Gestapo did, and forcing them onto boxcars which they knew were bound for Stalin’s death camps. They had to stuff screaming children onto the boxcars and often bludgeon their parents who were begging for their lives. The American soldiers had no choice and were forced to obey orders, but “just following orders” was not taken as an excuse at the Nuremberg sham trials, and many Germans were imprisoned or hanged for the mere act of rounding up Jews and forcing them onto boxcars for death camps in the precise same manner, and “just following orders” was not taken as an excuse.
Of course there were good guys in World War Two… on all sides. There were good Americans, British, Russians, and Germans. But the highest echelons of command were pretty much all badguys. Many came into the war innocent and forthright, but were badly corrupt by the time the war ended (Eisenhower is a good example). The Americans overall were a good, honest, idealistic, but naive people who (under the most corrupt president in American history FDR) allowed themselves to be taken in and hoodwinked into getting a half million of her best sons killed, just to help the Soviet Union take over the world. The history of American involvement in WW2 doesnt begin with Pearl Harbor or even Lend/Lease. The FDR administration, overrun with Soviet Spies, began setting the stage for WW2 immediately after his first inauguration day.
Some citation of source authority would be appropriate with respect to the Soviet’s use of the camps.
Agreed, and it appears in many books written which focus on the Soviet Union. The only one on the top of my head re: Buchenwald, is by Suvourov, but every time I bring him up people start going cuckoo claiming he’s been discredited (he hasn’t, but I don’t use him as a source because it is so often insisted that he has). As for the Spies in FDR administration, a recent book has come out by Herbert Romerstein and Stan Evans called “Stalin’s Secret agents,” which documents (the long- proven but seldom acknowledged fact) that the FDR administration was being run from Moscow the whole time. The book covers well, some of their machinations in diverting Japan from Russia’s most feared and dangerous enemy into America’s, and a multitude of others such as the Yalta concessions that ended with Americans playing Gestapo for Stalin, the penetration of the OSS by the Soviets (which was deep and vast, running all the way to Donovan’s office), and the betrayal and even assassination plot against Chiang in China.
If you want a good overview of the war from "my" perspective, the best starting point for clues might be the book "Target Patton: the plot to assassinate General Patton," by Robert Wilcox, which is a fantastic and easy read
EDIT: hate to use Wiki (which is a fine starting point but should never be the final authority) but the Buchenwald -to-Soviet-death-camp fact is even acknowledged there. The forum wouldnt let me post the link (my post count is too low) but search either Buchenwald or Soviet Special camp 2 in Wikipedia and it will come up
You will need 5 or more posts to attach a link, or a photo, so keep going, it’ll happen. I have read lots of “books” that claim any number of things to be factual, be it Aliens, Nazis under the Earth, Atlantis , honest politicians etc. Have yet to find much of actual historic value. But that aside, please feel free to express your perspective, many folks here are capable historians, you should not get bored.
I hadn’t seen it that way but, in light of your lucid explanation, I think you’re correct.
Now I can see why so many courageous and committed Americans fought and died undercover in Vietnam in a cunningly disguised war against communism when they were really the long dead Roosevelt’s commie agents promoting world wide communism by pretending to fight against it under the control of the communist controlled US general staff and the likes of commie plants like McNamara and Kissinger who ran the whole thing for the Comintern.
You seem like the sensible sort of person who would agree with the fact that the way to encourage kids to avoid using cocaine is to give them as much crystal meth as they can handle, because cocaine comes from the commies in Venezuela and when our kids get enough of that cheap commie shit they’ll be inert and the commies will be able to invade without any opposition. Whereas crystal meth comes from patriotic outlaw biker gangs, which chop the Venezuelans heads off if they try to sell coke in a proper American area, usually populated by people from south of the border but not Venezuela.
Your clarity of thought on these issues is an example of what should be happening on Capitol Hill.
You should stand for election, on a crystal meth / no commies / our current trillion dollar debt is all FDR’s fault / ticket.
P.S. Could you explain how the Soviet Union managed to lose about 25 million people during WWII against about half a million Americans (not all of whom were lost in Europe)? Were the Soviets just careless or was there some other reason why they suffered so much more than the Americans?
Nice pointless gibberish. Care to actually dispute anything I say, or can I expect more childish and vapid comedy?
It offends me that you are not taking me seriously.
You are exactly the sort of person who thinks you know all the conspiracies n shit, but when it comes time to stand up in the militia for the Republic, you’ll be lying on the ground while the rest of us are taking the soda streams.
says the clown
You are exactly the sort of person who thinks you know all the conspiracies n shit, but when it comes time to stand up in the militia for the Republic, you’ll be lying on the ground while the rest of us are taking the soda streams.
OK more worthless gibberish. Now you can be be offended on ignore
That seems to be the guist of your posts to date.
People think you’re a Nazi? Gee, perhaps it is your patently ignorant and offensive false “moral equivalencies”, politicized conspiratorial simplistic bonk, and you’re ad hominem overuse of words like ‘corrupt’ without actually providing any actual examples?
But I would love to see you answer RS*'s final question on the deaths of 20-30 MILLION* Soviet citizens under one of the most ruthlessly planned and executed invasions in history (by the Nazi’s) as the very planning of Operation Barbarossa was in itself a war-crime as it factored in the deaths of millions of Russians through starvation…
Morally perhaps, but in practice: No they weren’t. The Soviet Union never invaded anyone save Finland (and perhaps Poland [twice]), IIRC. And even those invasions were limited in scope and in response to the policies of Nazi Germany. Yes, of course Stalin was a cvnt. But in many respects, he actually handed Hitler several opportunities on a silver platter–such as not responding and preventing his commanders from responding to what was an inevitable invasion on the eve of Barbarossa…
…and before Hitler had begun starving anyone in concentration camps,
“Starving” or gassed? He did “starve” the majority of Soviet POW’s do death. In case you are ignorant of this fact, as you seem to be many, the second largest homogeneous grouping of people to die under Nazism were Soviet POW’s at around 3.3 million (57% of them according to Wiki).
the USSR had already killed more than the Nazi regime ever would. In World War Two we destroyed one evil and propped up an even worse and more deviant one. Whenever I say something like this I am accused of being a Nazi, etc, but it’s not that at all.
But the Nazis sure caught up! They killed more by virtue of their war of annihilation. One which they launched, BTW…
Everyone loves to think of VE day as the end of the holocaust but it wasn’t.
Which “Holocaust?” No one here is dumb enough to believe that VE Day was the end or the beginning, as genocide (and democide, which is what the Soviet Union actually mainly practiced) has been practiced since antiquity and certainly continues to modern day in The Congo and recently in The Sudan…
In fact some of Hitler’s death camps were immediately re-opened under new Soviet management, the most famous of these being Buchenwald (not famous for the fact that Russia continued exterminating people… that part is almost universally unknown) which was renamed “Soviet Special Camp #2” and continued to exterminate political undesirables while the world celebrated “the end of the holocaust.”
Buchenwald wasn’t a “death camp” technically in either case, it was a concentration camp in the truest sense of the word and a work camp. Of course, the proprietors didn’t mind if the inmates died. But the majority of inmates survived under the Soviets. And of course the Soviets were going to pen up and vet their potential enemies, just as we did after WWII. They were certainly far more lawless and brutal than we were, but upwards of 15,000 Wehrmacht also died under U.S. internment after the war. Mainly this was due to the inevitable famine and economic chaos…
Not only that but the insane Yalta agreements included a provision for the forcible “repatriation” of Soviet citizens, which included citizens of territory that the Soviets had just seized in WW2.
“Citizens?” Do you mean captured and interred Soviets that served in the Wehrmacht? Because, those were mainly the ones we’re talking about. And it is hard to have sympathies for the majority of them…
Poles, Czechs, Ukranians, etc. Many of them had fought against the Germans alongside Americans,
Um, no. Many of them had actually fought against Americans at Omaha Beach! For instance, few, if any, members of the Free Polish Army (of The West) whom ACTUALLY fought against the Nazi Germans were forcibly repatriated. Please provide sources for this if you believe otherwise…
but unfortunately they also knew too much about the Soviets and Stalin was very aware of the threat they presented to him. American troops under Eisenhower (awful general and corrupt)'s orders ended up having to brutally enforce this “repatriation,” sometimes hunting down families trying to escape like the Gestapo, bludgeoning screaming innocent citizens and stuffing them onto boxcars, knowingly bound for Soviet death camps… while the Allies tried and hanged Germans for the same thing. These people begged for their lives in front of their American allies, and often became desperate to commit suicide when they realized there was no way out.
Complete horse-hockey! Your melodramatic blathering aside, this never happened. You clearly haven’t read much on this or have read what amounts to poorly sourced, speculative conspiracy crap not written by actual accredited and generally accepted historians. Ike wasn’t an “awful general,” nor was he “corrupt”. You simply fail to comprehend nuance and the extremely complex situation and simply boil everything down to some school-boy simpleton politics…
That’s just the tip of the iceberg. World War Two had no good guys. Only badguys and victims.
You seem to backpedal on this point in later posts. Only if everyone could be an armchair, revisionist heroic “good guy” like you? 
I see alot of sweeping declarations but without anything to back it up. I apologize for causing offense but I am neither lying or mistaken about my claims. If i am misinformed, please enlighten me. I do not mean to cause offense, and I respect you and your point of view
It is not “conspiracy theory” that FDR’s cabinet was overrun with Soviet agents, it’s simply a matter of fact and it has been proven beyond all reasonable dispute. It is not conspiracy theory that Eisenhower brutally enforced the agreement at Yalta to round up Eastern European refugees and send them to their doom in Russia. It is also not conspiracy theory that the Soviets held onto thousands of American POWs -who were never returned and died in Soviet captivity, and that SHAEF along with the American government knew about it but refused to act or even make it public. Sorry if I label that “corruption,” but it is corruption.
As for “moral equivalency,” yes, I think that the German sergeant in the field was morally equivalent to the American and the British. There were good men and there were monsters on all sides. I don’t make excuses for anything that the Nazis did, but I also do not demonize the German soldier in the field who took no part in such things. The Germans who forced helpless Jews onto boxcars bound for death camps were “morally equivalent” to Americans who loaded Ukranians onto boxcars bound for death camps. In both cases they were following orders from above, could have been killed for refusing, and the fault lies in those who gave such orders.
Ridiculous. You’re severally confused. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head was the largely ignored forced “repatriation” (otherwise known as Ethnic Cleansing via terror) of German-speaking “Volksdeutch” from Eastern Europe back to Germany after WWII (which was also an atrocity)…
Of course there were good guys in World War Two… on all sides. There were good Americans, British, Russians, and Germans. But the highest echelons of command were pretty much all badguys.
Oh thank you for acknowledging that some people might have fought selflessly for a “good cause”, from your lovely abode in Florida…
Many came into the war innocent and forthright, but were badly corrupt by the time the war ended (Eisenhower is a good example). The Americans overall were a good, honest, idealistic, but naive people who (under the most corrupt president in American history FDR) allowed themselves to be taken in and hoodwinked into getting a half million of her best sons killed, just to help the Soviet Union take over the world. The history of American involvement in WW2 doesnt begin with Pearl Harbor or even Lend/Lease. The FDR administration, overrun with Soviet Spies, began setting the stage for WW2 immediately after his first inauguration day.
Agreed, and it appears in many books written which focus on the Soviet Union. The only one on the top of my head re: Buchenwald, is by Suvourov, but every time I bring him up people start going cuckoo claiming he’s been discredited (he hasn’t, but I don’t use him as a source because it is so often insisted that he has). As for the Spies in FDR administration, a recent book has come out by Herbert Romerstein and Stan Evans called “Stalin’s Secret agents,” which documents (the long- proven but seldom acknowledged fact) that the FDR administration was being run from Moscow the whole time. The book covers well, some of their machinations in diverting Japan from Russia’s most feared and dangerous enemy into America’s, and a multitude of others such as the Yalta concessions that ended with Americans playing Gestapo for Stalin, the penetration of the OSS by the Soviets (which was deep and vast, running all the way to Donovan’s office), and the betrayal and even assassination plot against Chiang in China.
The above is complete conspiratorial horseshat and a completely made-up history. There were communist “spies” in Reagan’s administration. Was he “run from Moscow”, too? Suvourov is a pseudo-historian fantasy writer that invents completely uncited bonk often used by Nazi-apologists to justify Barbarossa. And Herbert Romerstein is an extremist right wing agenist dipsh!t laughed at by any serious historian…
If you want a good overview of the war from “my” perspective, the best starting point for clues might be the book “Target Patton: the plot to assassinate General Patton,” by Robert Wilcox, which is a fantastic and easy read
I bet it’s an ‘easy read’ alright. 
EDIT: hate to use Wiki (which is a fine starting point but should never be the final authority) but the Buchenwald -to-Soviet-death-camp fact is even acknowledged there. The forum wouldnt let me post the link (my post count is too low) but search either Buchenwald or Soviet Special camp 2 in Wikipedia and it will come up
You don’t have to apologize for using Wiki, this is the one case it is actually more reliable than the books you’ve pseudo-cited…
Sorry I replied before I saw your later reply.
You seem to posit that it was perfectly OK for the Eastern Europeans to be “repatriated” to the Soviet Union, and many of them had fought alongside the SS (certainly not most of them), but that is the same exact thing as justifying Hitler rounding up Jews because surely a number of them had been collaborators with the USSR. Do you not see that?
I truly do respect you, and do not want to cause offense, but you like almost everyone else views World War Two entirely in terms of black and white, good guy vs badguy. That is, in my opinion, far from the truth.
Why don’t you challange something? And I’ll back it up with an actual historian like Beevor, Tooze, Atkinson, etc…
It is not “conspiracy theory” that FDR’s cabinet was overrun with Soviet agents,
You’re right! It’s actually such a completely idiotic notion of hyperbole, that it doesn’t even qualify as a “theory.” More like idiotic gratuitous assertion!
it’s simply a matter of fact and it has been proven beyond all reasonable dispute.
Why? Because you say so? Which historian says this?
It is not conspiracy theory that Eisenhower brutally enforced the agreement at Yalta to round up Eastern European refugees and send them to their doom in Russia. It is also not conspiracy theory that the Soviets held onto thousands of American POWs -who were never returned and died in Soviet captivity, and that SHAEF along with the American government knew about it but refused to act or even make it public. Sorry if I label that “corruption,” but it is corruption.
“Brutally” how? Thousands of American “POW’s” when? How would they have had access to thousands of Americans in 1945? Where are you getting this cr@p from?
As for “moral equivalency,” yes, I think that the German sergeant in the field was morally equivalent to the American and the British.
What about concentration camp guards and SS men that summarily executed virtually at will? Who are their American or British counterparts? On what scale?
There were good men and there were monsters on all sides. I don’t make excuses for anything that the Nazis did, but I also do not demonize the German soldier in the field who took no part in such things.
I don’t demonize the average German soldier either. I started this thread! But his cause under Hitler was pretty vile and carried out under a mass brutality virtually unseen in scale in history…
The Germans who forced helpless Jews onto boxcars bound for death camps were “morally equivalent” to Americans who loaded Ukranians onto boxcars bound for death camps. In both cases they were following orders from above, could have been killed for refusing, and the fault lies in those who gave such orders.
Um, no, it isn’t! Please explain which Ukrainians you’re talking about…
I do not know if it is “acceptable.” But it certainly is understandable! French SS members were certainly not treated well, so why should Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, etc., whom fought for Hitler expect good treatment? To imply that they are some how equivalent of the Jews being rounded up is one of the most disturbing and offensive notions I’ve come across here!
This is sad. Would you care to enumerate a single falsehood put forth by Romerstien, Stan Evans, James Earl Klehr, Paul Kengor, or any of the other historians whose findings you would prefer to be untrue? You can DECLARE “he is discredited” all you want, and many do, but i have yet to see any actual debunking -and I’ve searched in earnest