You already have! You’ve put forth the singularly doltish thesis that somehow Washington, and FDR, were somehow run from Moscow. Well then sir, what happened five years after WWII when the U.S. found itself fighting “commies” in Korea under an Administration that was descended from FDR’s? It makes absolutely no sense! Do you want me to prove we fought in Korea? Do you need some “proof” that we fought communists in Vietnam? How did suddenly Moscow stop “running us” then?
This is pretty silly and any work even implying this is at best based on cherry-picked facts, red herrings, poor scholarship, and is obviously the work of a right wing ****w!t seeming to demonize FDR based more on their hatred of the “pinko-commie, liberal New Deal” than any real evidence. BTW, what evidence is actually cited? I’ve noticed you toss out authors without any actual citations or quotes. If you’re making what are truly fringe speculations that conflict with mainstream history, it is your responsibility to “prove” what you’re saying. Not my responsibility to disprove your unsourced hearsay, speculations, opinions misinterpreted as fact, and overall silliness. Who were the commie “Manchurian Candidates” here? About the worst one could say about FDR based on the historical evidence is that he was a bit weak with Stalin at Yalta. Something not unexpected since he was in failing health. But many leftist critics would accuse FDR of fighting Nazism to the death of the last Soviet - as if you hadn’t noticed, it was the Soviets that did the most fighting and dying in WWII. Whether they were led by a Red Fascist cvnt or not!
Stan Evans, James Earl Klehr, Paul Kengor, or any of the other historians whose findings you would prefer to be untrue? You can DECLARE “he is discredited” all you want, and many do, but i have yet to see any actual debunking -and I’ve searched in earnest
Which historical hypothesis are you putting forward. Please provided specific citations and quotes! What is there to ‘debunk’?
They were. It’s been proven. The archives which were opened after the fall of the USSR acknowledged this, as well as the declassification of the Venona decrypts of communications between FDR cabinet members and their soviet handlers.
The testimony of such figures as Whittaker Chamber and Elizabeth Bentley, both of whom were successfully slandered and dismissed for decades, was proven true. Off the top of my head I can list Alger Hiss, Laughlin Currie, Harry Hopkins, and Harry Dexter White as Soviet Agents in FDR’s cabinet, and one reason i can list them off the top of my head is that they were among his top advisors, and indeed Hiss and Hopkins were FDR’s two closest aides who accompanied him to Yalta and Casablanca and never left his side.
It is true that much of what FDR signed his name to during his presidency was entirely authored by soviets in the direct service of Stalin, who FDR trusted implicitly and totally. FDR also went on the radio in his famous “fireside chats” and assured the American people that Stalin was completely trustworthy.
None of this is conjecture, my good friend. If we carry on this debate I may prove to be a slow responder as my classes start back monday (student), but in the end you will be frustrated if you continue down the “FDR cabinet was not overrun with Soviet Spies” line. It is a truth, it has been proven well beyond any honest debate, and you will find no honest way to dispute it.
Well then sir, what happened five years after WWII when the U.S. found itself fighting “commies” in Korea under an Administration that was descended from FDR’s? It makes absolutely no sense! Do you want me to prove we fought in Korea? Do you need some “proof” that we fought communists in Vietnam? How did suddenly Moscow stop “running us” then?
This is silliness; theatrics. The answer to your question is: 1) FDR was gone, along with most of his cabinet 2) The public was beginning to get wise 3) There were still too many there
This is pretty silly and any work even implying this is at best based on cherry-picked facts, red herrings, poor scholarship, and is obviously the work of a right wing ****w!t seeming to demonize FDR based more on their hatred of the “pinko-commie, liberal New Deal” than any real evidence.
If you continue to man this line you will end up being badly embarrassed. Please do an honest investigation of Harry Hopkins, Owen Lattimore, Harry Dexter White, Alger Hiss, and Laughlin currie. The best you will be able to do will be to try and argue that they “weren’t all that important” in the FDR cabinet, which I will be able to shoot down quite easily. If you are an honest and honorable person, and I have no reason to believe you aren’t, you will be forced to conclude that the FDR presidency was precisely what I say it was, but then we should start another thread for that.
To be honest this is my first foray into historical forums (I’ve posted in nature and photography forums for a while), and I have to say that I am taken aback by the ignorance re: FDR the commie stooge. He was, and it’s not even seriously debatable. I suppose it’s not widely known outside the 65+ military retiree crowd at the VFW. I just wish those guys posted in forums.
“Closest aids?” A few quick Google searches indicates you haven’t a clue of what you’re talking about. Chamber was an idealistic communist who turned after Stalin’s purges (as many who were blacklisted had) and a bit of a crackpot. Currie and Hiss were never in the “cabinet” and worked various advisory functions. You’re clearly defaming Harry Hopkins who wasn’t a communist but a Keynesian capitalist. His “sin” was dealing with the Soviets as an ally in WWII. White may have been a Soviet agent, but he was by no means a close adviser to FDR. He as an as’t to the Treasury Sec. and his recommendations regarding Postwar policy on Germany were “rejected”. So, how was Moscow “running” Washington, again? Hiss is an infamous spy case, but he by no means had any impact on U.S. policies as he was a State Dept. functionary…
It is true that much of what FDR signed his name to during his presidency was entirely authored by soviets in the direct service of Stalin, who FDR trusted implicitly and totally. FDR also went on the radio in his famous “fireside chats” and assured the American people that Stalin was completely trustworthy.
LOL You’re getting into complete troll territory here…
None of this is conjecture, my good friend. If we carry on this debate I may prove to be a slow responder as my classes start back monday (student), but in the end you will be frustrated if you continue down the “FDR cabinet was not overrun with Soviet Spies” line. It is a truth, it has been proven well beyond any honest debate, and you will find no honest way to dispute it.
Are you in college or high school? Ask your teachers what the Presidential Cabinet means…
This is silliness; theatrics. The answer to your question is: 1) FDR was gone, along with most of his cabinet 2) The public was beginning to get wise 3) There were still too many there
If you continue to man this line you will end up being badly embarrassed. Please do an honest investigation of Harry Hopkins, Owen Lattimore, Harry Dexter White, Alger Hiss, and Laughlin currie. The best you will be able to do will be to try and argue that they “weren’t all that important” in the FDR cabinet, which I will be able to shoot down quite easily. If you are an honest and honorable person, and I have no reason to believe you aren’t, you will be forced to conclude that the FDR presidency was precisely what I say it was, but then we should start another thread for that.
I did an “honest investigation,” and you apparently don’t know what “Cabinet” means. By your definition, Ronald Reagan’s Administration was run from Moscow, because John Walker was a spy in the Navy…
To be honest this is my first foray into historical forums (I’ve posted in nature and photography forums for a while), and I have to say that I am taken aback by the ignorance re: FDR the commie stooge. He was, and it’s not even seriously debatable. I suppose it’s not widely known outside the 65+ military retiree crowd at the VFW. I just wish those guys posted in forums.
So you’re now an expert based on a corrupt 5 minute Google search? How many results did you have to wade through to cherry pick that which led you to the results you were so desperate to produce, and why do I get the feeling you have never heard of any of these players until just now? I’m going to try to avoid insulting you, because you’re clearly a respectable person overall and not stupid, but you’re arguing things that you really have no idea about and you know it. Google is a great starting point but you have too much faith that you can learn everything important and gain accurate perspective in 5 minutes.
Chamber was an idealistic communist who turned after Stalin’s purges (as many who were blacklisted had) and a bit of a crackpot.
Yes, he turned, and began naming communists in the FDR administration, like Alger Hiss. He was smeared as a crackpot for years but whoops: the fall of communism and the great intelligence windfall of the 90’s proved the veracity of every claim he ever made
Currie and Hiss were never in the “cabinet” and worked various advisory functions.
Including, in Hiss’ case, accompanying FDR to Casablanca and Yalta
You’re clearly defaming Harry Hopkins who wasn’t a communist but a Keynesian capitalist.
I do defame Harry Hopkins, Soviet agent
His “sin” was dealing with the Soviets as an ally in WWII.
That was one of his sins, the other sin was being a communist agent with the number 19, according to more than one Soviet defector who came forward at different times throughout the decades. if we follow the Hopkins case to a conclusion, the best you will be able to do will be to say that he was a severely misled dupe, but it takes OJ jury level of credulity and bias to find him “innocent” following an actual honest investigation.
White may have been a Soviet agent, but he was by no means a close adviser to FDR. He as an as’t to the Treasury Sec. and his recommendations regarding Postwar policy on Germany were “rejected”.
Aha, so necause you could find a proposal of his that was rejected, it means that there’s nothing to see here? That’s what you’re saying?
So, how was Moscow “running” Washington, again?
through their deeply penetrated spy network throughout the FDR administration including treasury, office of war information, and State department.
Hiss is an infamous spy case, but he by no means had any impact on U.S. policies as he was a State Dept. functionary…
Oh really? Because he accompanied Roosevelt to Yalta, and I believe Casablanca too, and was so close to FDR that some joked he was “FDR’s boyfriend.” He also wrote the charter for the United Nations and served as its first general secretary… but he had no impact on US policy? Stop digging yourself into this hole, please. There is much more to the Alger Hiss story but unfortunately I can not link to it, as it is contained in books
LOL You’re getting into complete troll territory here…
Oh REALLY? So you’re saying that FDR did NOT, in fact, say to the American people, on Christmas eve no less, in a fireside chat, that Stalin was a good and honest man, deserving of our trust? Please corner yourself by saying this
I did an “honest investigation,”
An honest investigation takes more than 5 minutes on Google, and you surely had to dismiss several results as “right wing” and not credible
By your definition, Ronald Reagan’s Administration was run from Moscow, because John Walker was a spy in the Navy…
No, by my definition FDR’s presidency was run by Soviet spies, because FDR signed his name numerous times to policy that was written entirely by soviet agents, including at Yalta, where FDR was at death’s door, drooling on himself and shitting his pants like a 90 year old in a nursing home
You are indeed taken aback by ignorance, alright!
Start a new thread devoted to this topic and link to it here, please. I do warn you that it may play out slowly, so you’ll want to be careful to curb your smugness, and avoid painting yourself too deeply into corners as you are clearly wading into uncharted territory with your chin in the air. Over time I will demonstrate through examination of original source material that you are very badly mistaken on this subject. In my mind it is the most important and least covered topic in twentieth century history. I will do my best to avoid insulting you, and am prepared to forgive all the insults you hurl as your position becomes more desperate over time. Now I’m off to work. have a good day, and stay honorable
Which compares your five minute Google search, listing of books you haven’t read, and the use of Wikipedia, how?
How many results did you have to wade through to cherry pick that which led you to the results you were so desperate to produce, and why do I get the feeling you have never heard of any of these players until just now? I’m going to try to avoid insulting you, because you’re clearly a respectable person overall and not stupid, but you’re arguing things that you really have no idea about and you know it. Google is a great starting point but you have too much faith that you can learn everything important and gain accurate perspective in 5 minutes. Yes, he turned, and began naming communists in the FDR administration, like Alger Hiss. He was smeared as a crackpot for years but whoops: the fall of communism and the great intelligence windfall of the 90’s proved the veracity of every claim he ever made Including, in Hiss’ case, accompanying FDR to Casablanca and Yalta I do defame Harry Hopkins, Soviet agent That was one of his sins, the other sin was being a communist agent with the number 19, according to more than one Soviet defector who came forward at different times throughout the decades. if we follow the Hopkins case to a conclusion, the best you will be able to do will be to say that he was a severely misled dupe, but it takes OJ jury level of credulity and bias to find him “innocent” following an actual honest investigation. Aha, so necause you could find a proposal of his that was rejected, it means that there’s nothing to see here? That’s what you’re saying? through their deeply penetrated spy network throughout the FDR administration including treasury, office of war information, and State department. Oh really? Because he accompanied Roosevelt to Yalta, and I believe Casablanca too, and was so close to FDR that some joked he was “FDR’s boyfriend.” He also wrote the charter for the United Nations and served as its first general secretary… but he had no impact on US policy? Stop digging yourself into this hole, please. There is much more to the Alger Hiss story but unfortunately I can not link to it, as it is contained in books
No, um, I’ve heard of the ones that mattered and you wouldn’t know a “spy network” from the Food Network. There were agents at various levels, but all of them low ones. To say that that somehow constitutes an administration controlled by a foreign gov’t is foolish…
Oh REALLY? So you’re saying that FDR did NOT, in fact, say to the American people, on Christmas eve no less, in a fireside chat, that Stalin was a good and honest man, deserving of our trust? Please corner yourself by saying this
You’re no the sharpest knife in the drawer are you? What does that prove at all? What should he have said about Stalin? What a bastard we’re in bed with? Should FDR have joined Hitler against Stalin?
An honest investigation takes more than 5 minutes on Google, and you surely had to dismiss several results as “right wing” and not credible No, by my definition FDR’s presidency was run by Soviet spies, because FDR signed his name numerous times to policy that was written entirely by soviet agents, including at Yalta, where FDR was at death’s door, drooling on himself and shitting his pants like a 90 year old in a nursing home
How would you know? I’m guessing “research” isn’t your strong suit. And your definition is why we don’t let “special people” make definitions of historical importance.
But, okay. Specifically which “policy” was written by “Soviet agents?”
Start a new thread devoted to this topic and link to it here, please. I do warn you that it may play out slowly, so you’ll want to be careful to curb your smugness, and avoid painting yourself too deeply into corners as you are clearly wading into uncharted territory with your chin in the air. Over time I will demonstrate through examination of original source material that you are very badly mistaken on this subject. In my mind it is the most important and least covered topic in twentieth century history. I will do my best to avoid insulting you, and am prepared to forgive all the insults you hurl as your position becomes more desperate over time. Now I’m off to work. have a good day, and stay honorable
ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Why don’t you just answer my questions, first? Like:
What level of “student” are you?
If these spies were running FDR’s Admin from Moscow, then what happened when these same spies were in place in Truman’s Admin and he sent us into Korea to fight commies?
Yes, because so much of it is implausible and demonstrably wrong conspiracy theory bullshit.
No, because arguing with zealots and conspiracy theorists only reinforces them in their misguided belief that they are the only true holders of their special knowledge in a hostile world.
If I was going to dispute anything you say, I’d start with the fact that Alger Hiss was never a member of any President’s cabinet. Small fact, I know, but it’s rather inconvenient for the grand structure you build on that non-existent foundation. As you do with so many other historical ‘facts’, which aren’t. Such as Hiss writing the UN Charter. That must come as a surprise to the nations which attended the Dumbarton Oaks Conference where the US, Great Britain, USSR and China were under the illlusion that they were thrashing out the Charter.
I’m afraid I have to toddle off now as I must attend to a more important matter. My sock drawer needs tidying.
I don’t have a lot of personal insight into this discusion apart from my contempt for German violent and murderous aggression.
Both my grandfathers left their farms in 1917 to fight the kaiser, my father and uncles did the same in WW2. My father was 506th PIR.
I grew up surrounded by vets of both wars and their families. I developed an intense interest in that history.
Most nazi enthusiasts have none of that connection and cannot see past the jackboots and flashy uniforms.
I belong to a discussion group of current and former SF vets, the SF Teamhouse.
Wea re a group of verified guys of all ranks and all periods of SF history, from original manifest to currently serving.
The original manifest guys were mostly foreigners, recruited under the Lodge Act and many were involved in intel gathering and UW operations behind the Iron Curtain. A lot of them were from E European extraction. Some were former Whermacht or Liftwaffe conscripts. Somer were Hungarian freedom fighters. One guy I met was a pole who fought with the French and jumped into DBP with the legion. He later retired from the US Army.
Some of these guys fought in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam.
Most all were in serious combat units, Airborne Rangers, Rakkasans, even Marines. All retired US Army Special Forces. Some like me, did only a couple tours and got out.
We are privileged to be qualified to associate with such people.
Point is many of this group are scholars with lots of personal history. Many older guys served with 10th Grp at Bad Tolz and were involved in a lot of cold war operations and indoctrination.
From discussions it has become apparant that some of the Soviet influence on FDR is not fantasy. He is, in fact, a socialist or socialist leaning president.
TR was not better.
Another thing that has become more apparant since the fall of the SU, is that McCarthy was disturbingly right about influences and infiltrations.
About all I can say, but this comes from a learned group of people who were more than a little involved in such things.
Saying FDR was actualy controlled or handled by Soviets may be a bit radical, but not entirely to be dismissed pending actual research.
1)Let the record reflect that you just admitted that your knowledge is based entirely off of a 5 minute Google search
2)You’re making a mistake in assuming that I am as ignorant on this subject as you are, or as lazy. I promise you i have read each book that I mention, and unlike you my research didn’t begin with a conclusion that I became desperate to maintain after going far out on a limb.
No, um, I’ve heard of the ones that mattered
This is teenager-type smugness and very undignified. “I’ve heard of the ones that mattered?” Good gosh man, listen to yourself
and you wouldn’t know a “spy network” from the Food Network. There were agents at various levels, but all of them low ones.
I humbly beg you to read about some of these “various low-level agents,” and find out exactly how “low” they actually were, and what they did
To say that that somehow constitutes an administration controlled by a foreign gov’t is foolish…
Even more foolish is your smug self assurance; that you understand completely the depth of Soviet penetration in the FDR administration and its effect on world affairs, based on precisely zero study. Aside from exerting daily influence over FDR, spies in FDR’s administration pushed through such things under lend lease as the United States providing the Soviet Union with the materials for their nuclear weapons program. In your mind that’s low-level and nothing to worry about? What about that it was Soviet Spies Alger Hiss and [name escapes me, Soviet operative] accompanying FDR to the Yalta and Casablanca conferences? Low level? Really?
The OSS was penetrated at the highest level: Duncan Lee was a soviet spy and was literally Donovan’s #1, right hand man. That’s low-level? What would you consider high level?
You’re no the sharpest knife in the drawer are you?
Depends on the drawer. If you and I are in the drawer alone together, than indeed I am the sharpest knife -and by a considerable margin. You think that spies in the white house and in OSS headquarters are “low level.” You think that spies with the power to see to it that the Russians received uranium from the United States were low level. That’s not very sharp
What does that prove at all?
It is evidence of just how mesmerized and duped he was by Stalin
What should he have said about Stalin? What a bastard we’re in bed with?
Well Churchill said that
Should FDR have joined Hitler against Stalin?
Well he certainly shouldn’t have “joined” Stalin. In reality the best course of action would have been to stay out and let them crush each other OR simply let Patton crush them in 1945, which he said he could do in 6 weeks and there is no reason to doubt him. To have crushed the USSR in 45 might have achieved a semblance of world peace: we certainly wouldn’t have had to have fought in Korea or Vietnam
How would you know? I’m guessing “research” isn’t your strong suit. And your definition is why we don’t let “special people” make definitions of historical importance.
You can lash out and hurl insults all you want, but that doesnt make up for your breathtaking ignorance on this subject
But, okay. Specifically which “policy” was written by “Soviet agents?”
Here’s where you have me at the classic advantage that those who lie have over those who are truthful. For I have to actually consult books, which is something of a painstaking process that can’t be done in 8 seconds on Google. This is why I stipulate that this argument will play out slowly: because you will hold me to an impossible standard
That said, I did find a small tidbit this morning in a recent book called Stalin’s Secret Agents (you will no doubt simply attack this book, its author M. Stanton Evans and Herbert Romerstein, and go further out on a limb, and please do. You’re probably a lost cause but there are other observers who can watch you make a fool of yourself, and may be compelled to check for themselves). My own commentary will be in bold
of course this is only one example, and not exactly the “smoking gun” that I was looking for, but as I said before: i will produce such evidence in due course. I can not google search my books, and I dont still own each one that I have read. But I promise more are to come, as you have given me a new hobby to busy myself with on the toilet: re reading and highlighting tidbits to cite in this debate.
If I win the lottery this week, then I can devote myself more to providing you with the education you so desperately need, but as it stands I am a full time student and I own a small construction business so I am too busy to hold your hand and gently guide you out of your credulity, especially with you kicking and screaming like a 3 year old being led away from McDonald’s playland
ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Why don’t you just answer my questions, first? Like:
What level of “student” are you?
Undergrad. Studying to be an art teacher
If these spies were running FDR’s Admin from Moscow, then what happened when these same spies were in place in Truman’s Admin and he sent us into Korea to fight commies?
Is there ANYTHING I dont have to hold your hand and guide you through? Truman got rid of a number of them, as he was no Stalin loving idiot like FDR (Truman didn’t know how bad the problem really was, but he did act based on what he did know) and also there was the “Red Scare” during Truman’s term (McCarthy’s Wheeling speech, Senate hearings, HUAC rumblings et. al), which scared a lot of Reds and was a severe, if temporary, handicap to them.
Really, must you be so smug and nasty? And I love your cheap “Oh I could demonstrate that you’re wrong, but my mom is calling, so accept this passing insult as a substitute for honest debate.”
I am sorry for you if FDR is your lifelong hero, but the facts which have floated to the surface in the last twenty years… mean you should find a new hero. As for Alger Hiss, perhaps I was a little fuzzy with my details but Wikipedia (whose page isnt very accurate on Alger Hiss, particularly at Yalta) has it as
Hiss was secretary-general of the San Francisco United Nations Conference on International Organization (the United Nations Charter Conference),
So excuse me for misremembering (although it wouldn’t surprise me if during a review of my facts, i find that i am remembering correctly). I guess he didnt pen the Charter, he was just the general secretary of the Charter Conference.
And you’re arguing semantics if you say that Hiss did not serve in the president’s cabinet because he did not hold an official title of “cabinet minister.”
So toddle off and organize your sock drawer. It is obviously more important to you than actually understanding what you’re talking about. I see that I will be held to a perfect standard in this debate, and that is perfectly appropriate, as defense attorneys for guilty clients (which is the role you are playing for FDR) hold prosecutors to such standards. I don’t really expect much out of you, to be honest. You seem to be a “hurl insult then run and hide” type of guy. You dont want to swim into the deep end of this argument because I think you implicitly know very well that you’ll be drowned.
No, I’m just being sarcastic and dismissive. When I’m being nasty, I’m a real ****.
You, on the other hand, demonstrate the inherent smugness of the zealot who will never be swayed by anything which contradicts his belief, no matter how silly, flimsy or unfounded it may be.
You clearly misunderstood me.
I didn’t offer or intend any insult. I was just being dismissive of silly opinions based on demonstrably wrong facts. If I wanted to insult you, the language would be clear and direct. You are too thin skinned.
There is no place for ‘honest debate’ about groundless conspiracy theories, so there is no debate to be had.
Ah, another facile baited hook thrown out by the troll disappointed with the prey’s failure to rise to the bait.
It’s not FDR who is my hero.
It is an unknown American soldier who ended this exchange of catcalling between American and Japanese troops in the Pacific, bearing in mind that Eleanor Roosevelt was a long way short of pretty. It went along these lines
If you knew it wasn’t accurate, why did you rely upon it?
The first lecture in any History 101 is to get your sources correct.
Major fail.
No, you didn’t ‘misremember’, you relied upon Wiki to support a crap argument in support of a crap theory.
Wiki can be a useful source occasionally, if one knows enough about the topic to judge whether it is reliable, or if one refers to it while putting a caveat on its reliability.
You failed on both counts.
It wouldn’t surprise me. I would be ****ing astonished!
The secretary to a committee is a mere functionary and, so far as the creation of important committee resolutions is concerned, is no more than an amanuensis.
Or do you think that the Secretary General of the United Nations sits back in his big chair with fine malt whisky and creates resolutions of the Security Council committing the major powers to conflicts at his whim?
No, facts.
You need to spend less time following your favourite pastime of porn in your Mastubatory, because apart from harming your eyesight it is seriously damaging your thinking by transferring proteins needed by your brain to Kleenex.
Hiss was never a cabinet member. He was at best a senior member of staff to a cabinet member.
No. It’s just that organising my sock drawer is an activity I can undertake in the real world instead of the fourth dimension of conspiracy theories you inhabit.
Terribly sorry to inform you, old chap, but you got this horribly wrong as well.
As a practising lawyer for the past 35 years, I can assure you that in a criminal trial defence lawyers like me do not have to hold the prosecution to a standard of perfection, or anywhere near it. All we have to do is create reasonable doubt about our client’s guilt.
So far as your prosecution of the “FDR is the American incarnation of Soviet communism” case is concerned, it doesn’t even get that far. You’d lose on a ‘no case’ submission.
I hope I’ve met your low expectations.
I don’t think so.
Just the other day an arsehole in the car behind me kept tooting his horn to encourage me to magically levitate my car over a traffic blockage that I and everyone else apart from the tooting ****head could see would take time to clear. When I’d had enough of his tooting I took my keys out of the ignition and went back to his car, thrusting my keys through the window he was frantically trying to wind up as I said, rather courteously in the circumstances, “Here are the keys. See if you can do any ****ing better.” There was no more tooting.
Even if there was anything insulting in my conduct, I certainly didn’t hide. Unlike Mr Tooter, who discovered a sudden interest in his brake pedal when I reached his car.
I bring the same attitude to this forum.
No, there isn’t even a shallow end to your argument.
If you push it too far, people might stop responding. Then you’d have nothing to do but tidy up your own sock drawer.
P.S. If you run out of Kleenex in the Mastubatory, you could use your socks. Probably best to do it after they’ve been worn, because then they have to be washed only once.
2)You’re making a mistake in assuming that I am as ignorant on this subject as you are, or as lazy. I promise you i have read each book that I mention, and unlike you my research didn’t begin with a conclusion that I became desperate to maintain after going far out on a limb.
Then you should be able to post some actual quotes from it. Then we’ll research to see if it is a crackpot book or not.
This is teenager-type smugness and very undignified. “I’ve heard of the ones that mattered?” Good gosh man, listen to yourself I humbly beg you to read about some of these “various low-level agents,” and find out exactly how “low” they actually were, and what they did Even more foolish is your smug self assurance; that you understand completely the depth of Soviet penetration in the FDR administration and its effect on world affairs, based on precisely zero study. Aside from exerting daily influence over FDR, spies in FDR’s administration pushed through such things under lend lease as the United States providing the Soviet Union with the materials for their nuclear weapons program.
Specifically what?
In your mind that’s low-level and nothing to worry about? What about that it was Soviet Spies Alger Hiss and [name escapes me, Soviet operative] accompanying FDR to the Yalta and Casablanca conferences? Low level? Really?
The OSS was penetrated at the highest level: Duncan Lee was a soviet spy and was literally Donovan’s #1, right hand man. That’s low-level? What would you consider high level?
So what? FDR’s butler also accompanied FDR to Yalta. “Wild Bill” Donovan was a capitalist that made his fortune on Wall St. while the accusations against Lee were just hearsay that were never proven and in the end, again Soviet Archives, have vindicated him. His only crime was possibly having an affair with an OSS Agent who worked for the Soviets. But that doesn’t make him a spy for the Russians! And yes, there were many ideological communists and “champagne socialists” in the OSS. We were at war with the Nazis and IJ at the time, not the USSR. Many openly admitted their political beliefs in fact.
Did you know (since you mention Vietnam) that none other than “Ho Chi Minh” was considered an OSS source (or “agent”)? Was he run from Washington?
Depends on the drawer. If you and I are in the drawer alone together, than indeed I am the sharpest knife -and by a considerable margin. You think that spies in the white house and in OSS headquarters are “low level.”
They were not cabinet members as indeed there is no evidence the sole high level courtesan with actual access to FDR you have defamed. Even the Soviet archives have shown he was not a spy and many in the NKVD and GRU didn’t trust him while some others did. That sole fact alone debunks your silly arguments.
But perhaps you can move on and tell us how the Bush Administration was behind 9/11?..
You think that spies with the power to see to it that the Russians received uranium from the United States were low level. That’s not very sharp
The single largest problem during the early Soviet project was the procurement of uranium ore, as the USSR had no known domestic sources at the beginning of the project. The Soviet F-1 reactor, which began operation in December 1946, was fueled using uranium confiscated from the remains of the German atomic bomb project. This uranium had been mined in the Belgian Congo, and had fallen into the hands of the Germans after their invasion and occupation of Belgium in 1940. Further sources of uranium in the early years of the program were mines in East Germany (SAG Wismut), Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania (near Stei) and Poland. Eventually large domestic sources were discovered.
The uranium for the Soviet nuclear weapons program came from the following countries in the years 1945 to 1950 (mine production only):
It is evidence of just how mesmerized and duped he was by Stalin Well Churchill said that Well he certainly shouldn’t have “joined” Stalin. In reality the best course of action would have been to stay out and let them crush each other OR simply let Patton crush them in 1945, which he said he could do in 6 weeks and there is no reason to doubt him. To have crushed the USSR in 45 might have achieved a semblance of world peace: we certainly wouldn’t have had to have fought in Korea or Vietnam
LOL Um, Roosevelt was dead when Patton uttered that, and I believe Hitler also thought he could “crush” the Soviets in six weeks. I could go on and on about how idiotic and impractical that would have been as already there was a movement demanding the U.S. demobilize and send troops home from Europe not long after VE Day. You can even watch the last episode of Band of Brothers (I even read the book, too!) to get more information. Patton was a good field commander, but terribly overrated overall and lousy at logistics and he had very impulsive decision making possibly linked to multiple head injuries suffered early in his career…
You can lash out and hurl insults all you want, but that doesnt make up for your breathtaking ignorance on this subject
Here’s where you have me at the classic advantage that those who lie have over those who are truthful. For I have to actually consult books, which is something of a painstaking process that can’t be done in 8 seconds on Google. This is why I stipulate that this argument will play out slowly: because you will hold me to an impossible standard
Pardon me if I lash out, but I find such historical conspiracy theories not accepted by anyone but fringe partisans to be completely bullshit and embarrassing…
That said, I did find a small tidbit this morning in a recent book called Stalin’s Secret Agents (you will no doubt simply attack this book, its author M. Stanton Evans and Herbert Romerstein, and go further out on a limb, and please do. You’re probably a lost cause but there are other observers who can watch you make a fool of yourself, and may be compelled to check for themselves). My own commentary will be in bold
of course this is only one example, and not exactly the “smoking gun” that I was looking for, but as I said before: i will produce such evidence in due course. I can not google search my books, and I dont still own each one that I have read. But I promise more are to come, as you have given me a new hobby to busy myself with on the toilet: re reading and highlighting tidbits to cite in this debate.
Of course, because there is no “smoking gun.” Because you’re interpreting the text way beyond what the author probably meant. Just guessing. But please skip to the part where he asserts that FDR was “run from Moscow.”
If I win the lottery this week, then I can devote myself more to providing you with the education you so desperately need, but as it stands I am a full time student and I own a small construction business so I am too busy to hold your hand and gently guide you out of your credulity, especially with you kicking and screaming like a 3 year old being led away from McDonald’s playland
Undergrad. Studying to be an art teacher
Is there ANYTHING I dont have to hold your hand and guide you through? Truman got rid of a number of them, as he was no Stalin loving idiot like FDR (Truman didn’t know how bad the problem really was, but he did act based on what he did know) and also there was the “Red Scare” during Truman’s term (McCarthy’s Wheeling speech, Senate hearings, HUAC rumblings et. al), which scared a lot of Reds and was a severe, if temporary, handicap to them.
Um, the biggest “spies” you mentioned were not discovered until after Truman’s Admin was over. Hiss wasn’t exposed until Ike’s Admin IIRC. After Korea was well under way…
Firstly, Sen. Josef McCarthy was a liar who lied about his military service. At best, he was a ruthless and smarmy **** trying to build his career and power base by “hunting commies.” But he never really uncovered a national security threat on his way to defaming people and demonizing those that may have had flirtations with utopian Marxist thought until Stalin’s atrocities revealed his dystopian nature in practice (or destroying those he simply didn’t like).
BTW, McCarthy was also a big, giant, flaming homosexual that had men “infiltrating” his bedroom and had a very public long time companion. If Edward R. Murrow, possibly the finest radio/TV journalist the U.S. ever produced, hadn’t exposed him for the disingenuous demagogue and bully he was–several journalists working with members of both parties were prepared to go public about his apparent love or mens’ penises and destroy him by outing McCarthy the way he “outed” so many others…
FDR was not a “socialist.” It is argued that he actually saved capitalism by reforming it as it is forgotten that communist or fascist inspired civil insurrection by was a real possibility during the Great Depression and that hungry, unemployed, and homeless masses were already beginning to attack the “rich” by storming five star restaurants and targeting their homes.
Guess we’ll have to disagree.
I trust my sources and remain somewhat objective.
I believe they contain ewons of cumulative study and observations far beyond any books or personal likes or dislikes.
An unprofessional and reactionary retort.
Do I detect some vitriol?
My piece of trash computer is having a hard time with this site and wont load “reply with quote,” rrrrghh… You gave me a lot of comedy gold to work with…
It is amusing to observe nickdfresh’s instant hypocrisy as he says
Pardon me if I lash out, but I find such historical conspiracy theories not accepted by anyone but fringe partisans to be completely bullshit and embarrassing…
… and then in his very next post launches into a conspiracy theory about McCarthy being a homosexual, which is not proffered by anyone except fringe partisans, and is surely the result of another desperate, halfassed google search. By the way, I would be interested to see your source for that claim; no doubt it is scholarly, reputable, and nonpartisan
Furthermore on McCarthy: it’s also amusing to note the dozen or more “innocent” people who pleaded the fifth amendment to McCarthy’s question “Have you ever engaged in espionage for the Soviet Union” and then absconded to Russia or China within weeks and sometimes days of their testimony. I guess that’s further proof of “innocence.” Did you serve on the OJ jury?
As far as your copy/paste from another corrupt, desperate 5 minute google search regarding The Soviet Union receiving uranium from the United States, let us note that your list begins in 1945. Well that’s when the Soviets had to start going elsewhere for Uranium because their stooge Franklin was out of office and couldn’t help them anymore, and with that I will quote from the book called Dupes: by Paul Kengor (cant wait to see your comedy show response as you personally smear and attempt to discredit Kengor). Again, my own interjections will be in bold
Whoops. I asked you if I was going to have to hold your hand and guide you through everything. I see now that I do. Unfortunately, this is going to play out more slowly than i would prefer because I have to work and go to school. Otherwise i could devote more time to providing you with an education which you need. Of course, you’re welcome to take the reigns of your own education
[b]14 Jan 1952: In his private diary, Washington Post columnist Drew Pearson records the Washington rumor that Senator Joseph McCarthy is gay.
25 Oct 1952: “Joe McCarthy is a bachelor of 43 years. [...] He seldom dates girls and if he does he laughingly describes it as window dressing. It is common talk among homosexuals in Milwaukee who rendezvous in the White Horse Inn that Senator Joe McCarthy has often engaged in homosexual activities.” Hank Greenspun, Las Vegas Sun. McCarthy briefly considered a suit but took no action, because it would have meant testifying.
The Young Republicans held a state convention in Wausua, Wis., at which Sen. McCarthy was an honored guest. During the convention, McCarthy spent the night with William McMahon, formerly an official of the Milwaukee County Young Republicans, in a Eausua hotel room, at which time, McCarthy and McMahon engaged in illicit acts with each other.[/b]
Furthermore on McCarthy: it’s also amusing to note the dozen or more “innocent” people who pleaded the fifth amendment to McCarthy’s question “Have you ever engaged in espionage for the Soviet Union” and then absconded to Russia or China within weeks and sometimes days of their testimony. I guess that’s further proof of “innocence.” Did you serve on the OJ jury?
Unlike many of the people McCarthy attacked, at least OJ had a jury…
What about the U.S. Army being rife with “communists?” What about Edward R. Murrow being a Soviet or Chinese espionage agent (conveniently after he aired stories unfavorable to McCarthy)?
Interesting you talk about juries though…
As far as your copy/paste from another corrupt,
I used the exact same source you did, dimwit! Wikipedia. I can’t help it if it only takes a five minute “Google” search to dispell your B.S…
…desperate 5 minute google search regarding The Soviet Union receiving uranium from the United States, let us note that your list begins in 1945. Well that’s when the Soviets had to start going elsewhere for Uranium because their stooge Franklin was out of office and couldn’t help them anymore, and with that I will quote from the book called Dupes: by Paul Kengor (cant wait to see your comedy show response as you personally smear and attempt to discredit Kengor). Again, my own interjections will be in bold
Feel free to provide ANY documentation about how the Soviet Union had FDR send them some uranium…
Whoops. I asked you if I was going to have to hold your hand
The thought of you holding my hand is pretty disgusting…
…and guide you through everything. I see now that I do. Unfortunately, this is going to play out more slowly than i would prefer because I have to work and go to school. Otherwise i could devote more time to providing you with an education which you need. Of course, you’re welcome to take the reigns of your own education
You’re just blatantly trolling now. Good luck getting laughed out of whatever prestigious history dept. you attend though, that was a cool story, bro…
Hopkins wouldn’t have even known what uranium was or what it was for (at least initially). So did we “give them” uranium or not? Nothing above says we did, just that they made “requests”. Reading comprehension my boy…
It seems like maybe the author here is completely full of shit and engaging in selective semantics and sophistry. I would also add that he seems to be a rather poor writer, even accounting for your inability to spell check or use proper grammar. He’s certainly fooled you into believing we actually gave the Soviets “tons” of uranium when there is no evidence that we delivered an once of it. It’s called using selective facts out of context known as red herrings…
As far as Lend Lease, we certainly gave the Soviets a lot of stuff, after all they destroyed about 80% of the Wehrmacht, IIRC.
Thanks for showing I’m right though, apology accepted in advance…
