Ironman, you extracts from the Koran are obviously not yours so must have come from another site. Probably some right wing Christian fundamentalist hate group using extracts from the Koran to justify their hate.
But any college-educated person would see through this, wouldn’t they?
We have been friends with Jordan for a number of years. Its present king held a commission in a cavalry regiment and is still its Colonel. We get on very well with Brunei and Singapore. We have had an alliance with Morocco for centuries and we have been friendly with Turkey as well. We have played cricket with Pakistan ever since it came into being so they must be good fellows.
In 711 Muslim forces invaded and in seven years conquered the Iberian peninsula.
It became one of the great Muslim civilisations; reaching its summit with the Umayyad caliphate of Cordovain the tenth century.
Muslim rule declined after that and ended in 1492 when Granada was conquered.
Prior to the crusades the Islamic rule in the middle east was very enlightened and ensured that both Christian and Jew could follow their faith without persecution. It was the catholic church that tortured, burnt and slauhtered any who would not follow the pope. But you gloss over that.
So after centuries why in the last number of years have they, in your mind, changed? Has someone added new text to the Koran? Or is it that you are blinded by right wing Christian hate that is taught to children at Sunday school.
Oh dear, you read but do not understand. As has been stated earlier 3 of the alleged bombers were born in this country and the fourth it would seem came from the West Indies. Now to say that the UK has the most terrorist is probably factually true, but are you referring to both orange and green ones or is it some others. If it is the latter then I think you are mistaken.
You have also failed to mention that we have MP who have been (just in case of legal problems) terrorists and have spent time being fettered by a number of US presidents. Could it be that Jerry has had lunch with more serving presidents than Tony?
So? That does not prove anything. It does not change the words of the Qoran or the fact that it is studied by every Muslim or that Muslim extremists use the Qoran as their spiritual inspitation for their acts. How can you aregue that those things are not true? Really now. You’re getting lost in your own blather. :roll:
When did I say they changed? I never said that. Another failed attempt to put words into my mouth. You’re missing a big piece of the pie here. Islam was founded by violence. From day 1, Islam has been bent on using war and killing to spread Muhmammed’s words.
"Muhammad’s old companions met, quarreled bitterly and rejected Ali. The Quraysh group selected one of their own, Muhammad’s father-in-law and companion, the fifty-nine year-old Abu Bakr. The Quraysh group attacked and murdered the favorite of the Yathrib group, Sa’d ibn-Ubada. Bakr was declared “Commander of the Faithful,” a title in Arabic that was shortened to caliph, and Ubada was said to have been killed by God – who after all, according to Islam, directed all things.
The city of Yathrib, meanwhile, had become known as Al Madinah, “the city of the Prophet,” which has been shortened to Medina. Bakr ruled from Medina, his powers not well defined, while he claimed no religious authority. Bakr continued to live frugally and simply in a modest household with his wife, receiving no stipend, the state at the time having little income. He conducted government business in the courtyard of what had been the Prophet’s masjid (mosque).
Across Arabia, Bakr’s powers remained doubtful as here and there people believed that with the death of Muhammad they were no longer bound to authority from Medina. Those who had only superficially or reluctantly converted to Islam failed to recognize Bakr’s authority. So too did some others, on the grounds that they had not participated in choosing Bakr as Muhammad’s successor. And some persons claimed that they had received messages from God and were new prophets and successors to Muhammad.
The new prophets would need sufficient military strength if their view of God’s work was to succeed, and a few tried to organize a military following. But Bakr and his supporters gathered together the greatest military force Arabia ever had. They divided the force into eleven columns, which fought across Arabia for several months, each column responsible for suppressing rebellion in a different region. In Medina, Bakr was barely able to defeat an assault from nearby nomads. But, against the fragmented and scattered rebels elsewhere, Bakr’s forces managed easier victories. In 633 they defeated the Hanifa tribe in central Arabia, which had supported a new prophet called Musailima, who lost his life in the fighting, Musailima going down in history as a false prophet. Oman was pacified in the winter of 632-33. And Yemen was pacified in the spring of 633.
So what’s new? Nothing. Nothing at all. Muslims (named after Musailima) have been using violence from the beginning of Islam to spread their word. They waged wars agains everyone around them. They do it today in the form of terrorisms.
What’s new? Perhaps the technology, and the fact that only extremists do the acts, while everyday Muslims keep it to themselves.
[quote=“2nd of foot”]Prior to the crusades the Islamic rule in the middle east was very enlightened and ensured that both Christian and Jew could follow their faith without persecution. It was the catholic church that tortured, burnt and slaughtered any who would not follow the pope. But you gloss over that.
[Quote="2nd of foot”] So? That does not prove anything.
So this sort of destroys your argument that Muslims are evil and Christians are good.
When did I say they changed? I never said that. Another failed attempt to put words into my mouth. You’re missing a big piece of the pie here. Islam was founded by violence. From day 1, Islam has been bent on using war and killing to spread Muhmammed’s words.
You imply that they are all out to kill us.
So what’s new? Nothing. Nothing at all. Muslims (named after Musailima) have been using violence from the beginning of Islam to spread their word. They waged wars agains everyone around them. They do it today in the form of terrorisms.
What’s new? Perhaps the technology, and the fact that only extremists do the acts, while everyday Muslims keep it to themselves.
So the Christian bible spreading at the point of the sword you ignore. The present terrorism in the US preached but right wing Christians is different?
Again you are using undisputed fact as a case to argue. Yes Muslims read the Koran, my wife reads her bible, but reading a holy book is not wrong. Christian fundamentalists use the bible as justification for their terrorism. Does that mean all Christians are filled with hate?
Ironman, you still have not answered 1 question, not one.
The fact is your the cut and paste Guru.
Im still waiting for proof that Muslims are taught to hate the West in School, why britain has the biggest terrorist poulation, the list is probbly endless and you will never answer anything.
Next you will be telling us their is only 1 God and that Creationalism is the only true outlook.
the “fortune” relating to their presence in our countries is a value judgement it is not a fact! it is your opinion. Your bordering on KKK
yet again! what foreign countries have you ever visited?
They come to Britain because we have jobs and a good many of them arrived with the end of the empire Because they wanted to remain British, alot came because of our universities, and fortunately have stayed, providing (without wanting to use cliches) an aweful lot of doctors, Lawyers, and skilled proffesionals, hjaving educated them it is fortuante that htey dont leave taking their expertise with them. Very few Non British come to university in the UK because it is so expensive to be an international student! Arabic persons in the UK higher Education are genreally UK born!
The work ethic (I cant believe I sound this TORY) found amongst the Asian community is well known. They are normal people not crazy Religious Warriors!
The article I provided earlier shows that terrorists were trained overseas!
Have you ever lsitened to the Beatles IRONMAN?
How many of us have listened to the Beatles?
Well then we are all psychopaths because if you Listen to “Helter Skelter” very closely you will hear the voice of JC telling yo to Kill people! - Just because one person interprets that way does not mean that it is the message for everyone! Charles Manson was always going to be a headcase regardless of what the Beatles said!
Terrorists will be terrorists as long as they have the will to kill people to further their own ends! It is not declined from their religious persuasion its a Mental thing!
You as a psychologist should know enough about mental disorders and the Symptoms of narcissism to understand why someone wishes to become a martyr and change the world!
He is no more a phsychologist than Im an Orange. He probaly thinks the Beatles were american anyway.
You waste your time with Racist-man, he is permanently scarred and will not be changed. Reminds me of a guy on another forum who went on and on about Creationism and tried to get it into every thread.
He will be banned once he has overstayed his welcome and move onto somewhere else.
He has accused the British army of something akin to “operation get behind the Darkies” regarding the Gurkhas already and no action was taken.
He has been wrong on an aweful lot of things and continues to be without any remedial action being taken. - the opening pages of Walther Warmachines big book of soldier knowledge was devoted to his teaching well worht a chuckle before it moves onto his rants re: libertarianism
URL available on request.
[Quran 60:8]“GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.”
[Quran 8:61]“If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.”
[Quran 4:90]"… Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."
Regrettably, many terrorists groups have used the name Islam to promote their cause and this gave many non-Muslims a chance to asperse Islam and label the Muslims as terrorists. Deliberately ignored on the other hand, are terrorists who happen to be Christians or Jews.
With all the great laws established on earth by God or man, the evil among the human being, will find a way to abuse, distort or misinterpret them. This does not make these laws evil but rather proves the evil nature of these criminals.
Terrorism as an act of violence has been committed by people from all religious and political backgrounds. Terrorists who happened to be Christians ( e.g. in Bosnia, England, Ireland, Germany, Spain…etc.) and thsoe who happened to be Jewish (e.g. in Israel, Palestine and Lebanon) used their religious beliefs to claim legitimacy for the violence and terrorism they commit. Thousands of women, children and men, young and old have been killed in attempts to achieve or hold on to special interests whether political, social or “religious” .
Those who do not comprehend Islam and those who have an interest in distorting the truth about the religion of Islam, have been trying to make the word terrorists and terrorism synonymous to the religion. A mistake that had been common in the media in the West.
Several groups who called themselves Jews, Christians or Muslims, have used terrorism to force their agenda, issues or beliefs. None of these groups represent the true religion of the Jews or the Christians as much as these terrorists represent Islam.
Attacks on the civilians and the least expecting people around the world by these groups is the kind of strife that cannot be justified by any religion or under any cause and is strongly condemned in all religions including Islam as clarified by the words of God in the Quran, the Final Testament.
Some of the terrorist groups which massacre innocent people consider themselves martyrs. Those who kill the innocent people in the name of their religion or the name of God, who think of themselves as martyrs should think twice. Their act is actually strongly condemned by God in the the verses of the Quran. These people are disobeying God’s commandments and the TRUTH in the Quran. Instead they blindly follow the opinion of their corrupted leaders (and scholars). It is not a surprise that God has not granted them victory. Quite the contrary they have been the most humiliated, defeated and oppressed people on earth. Worse, they are oppressed by their own rulers.
The Quran is very clear that the believers must defend themselves but never to aggress. It is true that Islam (Submission) calls for the followers to be strong. This call however is to use the strength to secure peace, provide freedom for the society and the country but never to agress unless agressed upon.
Our Creator is one and the same. The God of the Muslims is the same God of the Jews and the Christians and all the other religions. God does not permit one group the killing of innocent people of the other religions.
The blame lies with the terrorists and not the religion they claim to adhere to. Not everyone who calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim as much as not every one who thinks of himself as a Jew or a Christian is one.
The religion of Islam should not be confused by what these so called Muslims have done. They actually, by the definition of the Quran, are not Muslims or at least as much Muslims as the Ku Klux Klan are good Christians. We should not let our emotions overcome our logic and understanding.
United we stand against all kinds of terrorism , as only through unity will we be able to eradicate them and bring them to justice. We will serve the terrorists cause by name calling and false accusations of everyone who happens to be a TRUE God fearing Muslim.
Dorko, here’s today’s lesson for you. Get a pen and paper.
Where the terms “unbelievers” and “infidels” and “people of the book” (readers of the Bible) appear in the Quran, it is in reference to Christians and Jews, and only them. That is what the Quran means by those terms. Ask a Muslim holyman. That’s what it means.
You fail to understand that the Muslims have considered Christianity it’s only real rival since Islam was founded in the 6th century. You see, every culture in the world at that time had a religion, and they all had a God. Multi-diety religions, such as those of the ancient Romans and Greeks were all but gone from the reach of the Arab people by that time. And while the Norse had not been converted by that time, their multi-diety culture had not been encountered by the Arabs. But by the 6th century, [i]all of the lands that Arab explorers had encountered were already converted or were in the process of converting to Christianity with the exception of the Hindi and many Jews.[/i]
What the Arabs meant by "unbelievers, infidels, and “people of the book” (Bible) was Christians and Jews. Those terms do not refer to any other cultures. They do not refer to cultures which do not believe in God, because there were none! Every culture within reach of the Arabs believed in God. It was not refering to the Hindi, because they are refered to by name in the Qoran. It was not refering to multi-diety religions which had become virtually extinct by that time. The Muslims believe that Christians are “unbelievers” because we believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and we pray to Him, and to the Muslims, this means that we worship a man, and do not worship God himself. These terms in the Qoran refer to Christins and Jews only!
Where the Qoran states:
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)”
and
“They (the unbelievers) should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)”
…it is refering to Chrisitans and Jews; the rivals of the Muslim faith.
Are you begining to understand now? Do you now finally see that the Qoran calls Muslims to terror and murder of Christins and Jews? It does kiddo. It most certainly does.
So now that you understand what we are talking about, you can now realize that my statements:
“As long as there are Muslims willing to act on the words of the Qoran there will be terrorists.”
and
“Muslim children are taught to despise the cultures of the west.”
…are true. Now you can say that you know Muslims and that most Muslims are peacful people and bla bla bla. But that does not change the fact that they all read the Qoran, the do not denounce any part of it, and if you think that because a Muslim smiles at you and talks to you while you are shopping in his little shoppe on the corners that he thinks you are his religious equal, I have more news for you. He may befriend you, but to him, you are still a unbeliever and an infidel.
Getting the picture now sonny?[/quote]
Wrong again Junior.
Keep trying though, you’ll get there.
Look, I don’t mind debating with you. But you really should stop trying to put words into my mouth and say that I said or implied something which I did not. If you are going to debate, do it like a man, not a childish schoolboy.
Nothing you have said proves that Islam is not evil and Christianity is not good. HOWEVER, I have never said that Islam is evil. What I said is (now get a pen this time and write it down) is:
The Qoran teaches Muslims to be violent and kill Christians. It does, you’ve read the quotes from it.
As long as there are Muslims willing to act on the words of the Qoran, there will be terrorists. And that is true as well.
Muslim children are taught from the Qoran every day, and this teaches them to despise the west. Also true.
Did you write that down? (in my best Chris Tucker impersonation) Do you unserstand the words that are coming out of my mouth???
Do you not know that in many Muslim schools in the Middle East the teachers outright state to the children that the west is evil and westerners are “unbelievers” and worship a man instead of God? Do you not know this really? It might help you to stop playing soldier so much, quit spending all of your time on the Net, and learn something about the world outside of your door.
Islam swore to destroy the Christians in the Qran before Christins went after them in the Crusades. Yup. That’s true. The Crusades did not take place until centuries after the Qoran was written. Even so, I don’t see how it matters.
However, you might find this very interesting:
"Although the name “Allah” is most commonly associated with Islam, it was also used in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs had a chief deity, in their pantheon, whom they called “Allah”; “Along with Allah, however, they [pre-Islamic Arabs] worshipped a host of lesser gods and ‘daughters of Allah’ [the three daughters of Allah being Allat, Al-Uzza, and Manah]” (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, “The Facts on File”, ed. Anthony Mercatante, New York, 1983, I:61). The pagan Arabians often used the word “Allah” in the names of their children; Muhammad’s father, who was born into paganism, was named “Abdullah”, which translates “servant of Allah”." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Muslims do not worship God. Their God is a pagan one. Muhammed did not change that. He is considered by Muslims to be the last prophet of “Allah”. So who is “Allah”? Your guess is as good as mine I suppose.
Now you are getting this into theology, so I will answer you on a theological platform. Whether or not reading a holy book is good or not depends upon the book. Muslims do not worship the same God that Christians do. So, as a Christian, to me, reading the Qoran is not good. As for Christian fundamentalists using the Bible for terrorism, I don’t know what terrorism this could be. What terrorism are you talking about? Are you refering to their assertion than Christianity must be spread to all of the peoples of the world? How is that terrorism? Are you a Christian? If so, how can you say that the spreading of Christianity is bad, since Jesus Christ himslef charged the Epostles, who charge all Christians with spreading the word of about God and salvation for mankind - about speaking of the virtues of love, forgiveness, charity, etc.?
Now, if you are talking about the few wackos who use the Bible to support their acts of violence, I would say that they are off their rockers. There are always the fringers in every culture. However, those unbalanced persons cannot be compared to mass teaching of children and cultural foundation that Christians are evil and worthy of death, as Muslim children are taught, and Christins are not taught.
You might also find it interesting to know that the Qoran is absolutely littered with hypocracy and false information. Check this out. Please read this with an open mind, and don’t just read the first sentance or two and close it and pass it off. Give it a chance. Actually read some of it. You will be astounded by what you will learn:
Again, I reiterate my statements. Children in Islam are taught that the west is evil. The Muslim faith is a pagan one which does not worship the same God as the Father of Jesus Christ, and Muslims believe that Christins are worthy of elimination from the earth. Thier “holy book” says so.
How can you argue that:
The Qoran does not state that Christins should be killed.
Muslims are taught from the Qoran and required to read every word of it from early childhood.
Muslims do not theink the west is full of evil.
What’s to argue about there? How can you possibly claim that those things are not so?
Dorko, here’s today’s lesson for you. Get a pen and paper.
Where the terms “unbelievers” and “infidels” and “people of the book” (readers of the Bible) appear in the Quran, it is in reference to Christians and Jews, and only them. That is what the Quran means by those terms. Ask a Muslim holyman. That’s what it means.
You fail to understand that the Muslims have considered Christianity it’s only real rival since Islam was founded in the 6th century. You see, every culture in the world at that time had a religion, and they all had a God. Multi-diety religions, such as those of the ancient Romans and Greeks were all but gone from the reach of the Arab people by that time. And while the Norse had not been converted by that time, their multi-diety culture had not been encountered by the Arabs. But by the 6th century, [i]all of the lands that Arab explorers had encountered were already converted or were in the process of converting to Christianity with the exception of the Hindi and many Jews.[/i]
What the Arabs meant by "unbelievers, infidels, and “people of the book” (Bible) was Christians and Jews. Those terms do not refer to any other cultures. They do not refer to cultures which do not believe in God, because there were none! Every culture within reach of the Arabs believed in God. It was not refering to the Hindi, because they are refered to by name in the Qoran. It was not refering to multi-diety religions which had become virtually extinct by that time. The Muslims believe that Christians are “unbelievers” because we believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and we pray to Him, and to the Muslims, this means that we worship a man, and do not worship God himself. These terms in the Qoran refer to Christins and Jews only!
Where the Qoran states:
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)”
and
“They (the unbelievers) should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)”
…it is refering to Chrisitans and Jews; the rivals of the Muslim faith.
Are you begining to understand now? Do you now finally see that the Qoran calls Muslims to terror and murder of Christins and Jews? It does kiddo. It most certainly does.
So now that you understand what we are talking about, you can now realize that my statements:
“As long as there are Muslims willing to act on the words of the Qoran there will be terrorists.”
and
“Muslim children are taught to despise the cultures of the west.”
…are true. Now you can say that you know Muslims and that most Muslims are peacful people and bla bla bla. But that does not change the fact that they all read the Qoran, the do not denounce any part of it, and if you think that because a Muslim smiles at you and talks to you while you are shopping in his little shoppe on the corners that he thinks you are his religious equal, I have more news for you. He may befriend you, but to him, you are still a unbeliever and an infidel.
Getting the picture now sonny?[/quote]
Wrong again Junior.
Keep trying though, you’ll get there.[/quote]
No young man. That is absolutely correct. You need more education before debating this if you think the above is innacurate. They have some good schools in England I am sure. Go to one of them and start over. Don’t drop out this time, sonny.
You are just making yourself look like even more of an idiot than usual.
Try reading the words on the screen before spouting your usual rubbish.
You are fooling no-one except yourself and you were clearly delusional to start with.
Please try to reason like an adult without resorting to your usual tactics of misquotation, misattributation and stating opinion as fact. It would also help if you could admit to being wrong when someone posts incontrovertible facts that oppose your opinion.
BTW, the idolators mentioned in the Q’ran are believers of animist religions, which were verycommon in Arabia at Mohammed’s time. He explicitely excludes Jews and Christians from persecution as “People of the Book”.
I would rather debate with you than have you simply direct worthless blather at me. Anyone can do that, children do it all the time. So why don’t you try to have something to say about the subject instead of throwing a blanket criticism at me? You have offered no justification for your criticisms.
What have I misquoted?
What has been incorectly attibuted?
What have I stated as opinion which is not fact?
What incontrovertable facts prove that my “opinion” (facts?) are incorrect?
Woudn’t you rather have something to offer other than a blanket criticism? Surely you can substanciate these claims, right? Give it a shot.
I did not say that the Muslims consider Christians idolaters. I said they consider them to be “unbelievers,” “infidels”, and “people of the book”. Please, quote me correctly.
You are wrong about the “people of the book”. That is a reference for those who study the Bible. Ask a Muslim theologist.
