Wow, I’m having a serious case of deja-vu. Surely we’ve been here before in many other threads - perhaps a pattern is emerging? Or is this just a glitch in the matrix? 8)
Make sentence - nobody fooling are you yourself but
People of the book as I have had explained by a few Muslims are Jews and Christians and are NOT the same thing as unbelievers/infidels. I wont quote that back at you because it is false.
Edit to add:
I personally tend more in the direction of Infidel, so really I have more at stake than you, but I’m not worried.
How many times do I have to say it before you understand a simple sentance?
Do I think all Muslims hate the west? No. I think a great many do. I do however, realize that all muslims think Christians worship a man and not “God”. At least, not THIER God.
Do I think all Muslims want Christians to be killed? No. I do however realize that they want the Christian religion to be done away with. The Qoran charges Muslims with this motive just as the Bible charges Christians with the same task.
How many times do I have to say it before you understand a simple sentance?
Do I think all Muslims hate the west? No. I think a great many do. I do however, realize that all muslims think Christians worship a man and not “God”. At least, not THIER God.
Do I think all Muslims want Christians to be killed? No. I do however realize that they want the Christian religion to be done away with. The Qoran charges Muslims with this motive just as the Bible charges Christians with the same task.[/quote]
Answer both questions please.
So not all Muslims want to kill Christians, in your wisdom which Muslims want to kill Christians and which dont?
I would rather debate with you than have you simply direct worthless blather at me. Anyone can do that, children do it all the time. So why don’t you try to have something to say about the subject instead of throwing a blanket criticism at me? You have offered no justification for your criticisms.
1) What have I misquoted?
2) What has been incorectly attibuted?
3) What have I stated as opinion which is not fact?
4) What incontrovertable facts prove that my “opinion” (facts?) are incorrect?
Woudn’t you rather have something to offer other than a blanket criticism? Surely you can substanciate these claims, right? Give it a shot.[/quote]
I am shocked, you have finally actually responded to my points.
In answer to your questions:
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You have consistently misquoted other members of this forum. You have also regularly selectively quoted from other sources on the internet. Your normal tactic is to leave out parts of the text that you don’t like.
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You have accused site members of statements that others have made. On other occasions, you have posted text as your own that you have found on the internet. This is called plagiarism.
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Shall we go back to the “Gurkhas used as cannon fodder” argument? How about the “Tracer rounds can’t be used in a Bren gun” dispute? I could go on…
-
The main example I will use is the time where you actually proved yourself wrong. Do you remember where you stated that the angle of fire that produced the longest range was 45 degrees? You then posted a table to prove it. This table clearly showed that 45 degrees was not the angle for optimum range. You completely ignored this fact and continued to spout your opinion.
Whenever I have tried to reason or debate with you in the past, you have ignored my posts or, if I am really lucky, responded with :roll:
THAT is why I now offer “blanket criticism” and I think I have just proved my claims.
Sorry about the long cut and paste but here are some select quotes from the Bible given in a similar uncommented way as our “friend” from across the pond quotes the Quran, read the last one and all our questions are answered as to his strange behaviour:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7
Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12
False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9
Everyone will have to worship Jesus – whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
http://www.evilbible.com/BiblicalIntolerance.htm
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dorko, here’s today’s lesson for you. Get a pen and paper.
Where the terms “unbelievers” and “infidels” and “people of the book” (readers of the Bible) appear in the Quran, it is in reference to Christians and Jews, and only them. That is what the Quran means by those terms. Ask a Muslim holyman. That’s what it means.
You fail to understand that the Muslims have considered Christianity it’s only real rival since Islam was founded in the 6th century. You see, every culture in the world at that time had a religion, and they all had a God. Multi-diety religions, such as those of the ancient Romans and Greeks were all but gone from the reach of the Arab people by that time. And while the Norse had not been converted by that time, their multi-diety culture had not been encountered by the Arabs. But by the 6th century, [i]all of the lands that Arab explorers had encountered were already converted or were in the process of converting to Christianity with the exception of the Hindi and many Jews.[/i]
What the Arabs meant by "unbelievers, infidels, and “people of the book” (Bible) was Christians and Jews. Those terms do not refer to any other cultures. They do not refer to cultures which do not believe in God, because there were none! Every culture within reach of the Arabs believed in God. It was not refering to the Hindi, because they are refered to by name in the Qoran. It was not refering to multi-diety religions which had become virtually extinct by that time. The Muslims believe that Christians are “unbelievers” because we believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and we pray to Him, and to the Muslims, this means that we worship a man, and do not worship God himself. These terms in the Qoran refer to Christins and Jews only!
Where the Qoran states:
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)”
and
“They (the unbelievers) should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)”
…it is refering to Chrisitans and Jews; the rivals of the Muslim faith.
Are you begining to understand now? Do you now finally see that the Qoran calls Muslims to terror and murder of Christins and Jews? It does kiddo. It most certainly does.
So now that you understand what we are talking about, you can now realize that my statements:
“As long as there are Muslims willing to act on the words of the Qoran there will be terrorists.”
and
“Muslim children are taught to despise the cultures of the west.”
…are true. Now you can say that you know Muslims and that most Muslims are peacful people and bla bla bla. But that does not change the fact that they all read the Qoran, the do not denounce any part of it, and if you think that because a Muslim smiles at you and talks to you while you are shopping in his little shoppe on the corners that he thinks you are his religious equal, I have more news for you. He may befriend you, but to him, you are still a unbeliever and an infidel.
Getting the picture now sonny?[/quote]
Wrong again Junior.
Keep trying though, you’ll get there.[/quote]
No young man. That is absolutely correct. You need more education before debating this if you think the above is innacurate. They have some good schools in England I am sure. Go to one of them and start over. Don’t drop out this time, sonny.[/quote]
Yes they do have some excellent schools in Scotland (hint :that’s a different place to England).
I went to one of them.
And I didn’t drop out, which is where I learned to spell, construct a sentence, formulate an argument without resorting to idiot insults, and to count.
I also learned geography, apparently unlike you.
And because I can count, I know that my age, 58, is greater than your age, 43.
Jumior you are, and junior you will ever remain.
As for your inaccuracies :
“Muhammad slowly gathered a group of followers. One of my professors once remarked that the most convincing evidence that could be adduced in support of the claim that Muhammad was inspired by God was the fact that he convinced his wife, Khadija, that he was God’s holy and final prophet. Muhammad’s activities aroused the anger of the leaders of Mecca since he insisted on the existence of only one god and they profited greatly from the pilgrims who came to Mecca to worship their many idols. He was threatened with death and his own kindred agreed that they would not protect him or seek vengeance if he were killed.
Under such circumstances, Mecca was a dangerous place to be. In 622, he and his followers fled north to the caravan city of Medina, to which he had been invited as chief and judge to mediate between the Jews, Christians, and idolaters who inhabited the town. Their escape from Mecca was the hijra (the flight), regarded by Muslims as the beginning of Islam and the first year of the Muslim calendar.
The Muslims practiced at least a limited religious toleration, and the social and economic doctrines of Islam were far more humane than those of the other peoples of the time. Islam was a liberal force. Religious toleration in Islam consists of the recognition of the revelations given by God to the Jews, whom the Muslims call “The People of the Law,” and to the Christians, who are called "The People of the Book." Muslims recognize the Jewish prophets and the Christian Jesus as having been inspired by God but accord the highest position to Muhammad as “The Seal of the Prophets,” to whom God revealed his final and complete message. One should note, however, that the Qu’ran does not suggest that those who worship Idols should be tolerated. In fact, it states that they are either to be converted to Islam or face war.”
http://www.ku.edu/kansas/medieval/108/lectures/islam.html
“The exact date of the birth of Umar is not known. The concensus of opinion, however, is that Umar was born at Mecca around 580 A.D He was younger than the Holy Prophet of Islam by about ten years.
Amr, a brother of Khattab was a paternal uncle of Umar. Zaid the son of Amr, and a cousin of Umar was among the distinguished persons of the Quraish, who before the advent of Islam gave up idolatry, and came to believe in the unity of God. Zaid was a poet. One of his poems reads:
“I believe in one God,
I cannot believe in a thousand gods.
I ignore the idols of Lat and Uzza,A wise and cautious man can do no more.”
Khattab the father of Umar persecuted Zaid for his religious beliefs. Zaid died before the Holy Prophet of Islam announced his prophetic mission. When the Holy Prophet proclaimed his prophethood, Saeed the son of Zaid who had married Umar’s sister Fatima, was among the early converts to Islam.”
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/01_umar_bin_al_khattab.htm
“In the polytheistic religions of Arabia most of the gods were originally associated with heavenly bodies, to which were ascribed powers of fecundity, protection, or revenge against enemies. Aside from a few deities common to various populations, the pantheons show a marked local particularism. But many religious practices were in general use. The study of these practices is instructive in view of their similarities with those of the biblical world and also with those of the world of Islam, for, while firmly repudiating the idolatry of the pre-Islamic period, which it calls the “Age of Ignorance” (Jahilyah ), Islam has nevertheless taken over, in a refined form, some of its practices.”
Encyclopedia Britannica (My emboldenment throughout)
So, all the polytheistic (hint : that’s what we educated people call it when they have more than one God: we don’t make up new words like “multi-diety” (sic)) religions had gone before Islam appeared, hmm?
And not one word in there about killing Christians.
People of the Law (Jews) and People of the Book (Christians) are exempt from forceable conversion, unlike idolators.
Got it now, Junior?
Maybe somone can explain the longer words to you?
(edited to add emboldenment)
Answer both my questions please.
So not all Muslims want to kill Christians, in your wisdom which Muslims want to kill Christians and which dont?
[quote=“Fuchs66”]
People of the book as I have had explained by a few Muslims are Jews and Christians and are NOT the same thing as unbelievers/infidels. I wont quote that back at you because it is false.
Edit to add:
I personally tend more in the direction of Infidel, so really I have more at stake than you, but I’m not worried.[/quote]
Well, that is incorrect. See here the reference in the Qoran to Christins as the “disbelievers”.
From the Qoran:
[9.30] “And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”
The Qoran states that disbelievers are like the unbelievers.
[5.78] Those of the children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus the son of Mary;… Evil is that which they did… Evil is that which their souls have sent before them, for God’s wrath is on them, and in the torment shall they dwell for aye. But had they believed in God and the Prophet, and what was revealed to him, they had not taken these for their patrons; but many of them are evildoers.
[9.73] “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”
The Jews are said to be followers of Satan:
[17.27] “Surely the squanderers (Jews) are the fellows of the Shaitans (minions of Satan) and the Shaitan (Satan) is ever ungrateful to his Lord.”
The Qran is full of contradictions. In places it states that thier God, Allah, is the God of Abraham. However, thier name for God, Allah, is a pagan name that was used by Arabs for the name of a pagan God long before the foundation of Islam.
In the description of the Garden of Eden, the Qoran makes it clear that Allah is the same God that is in the Bible. But later in the Qoran, it is stated that the Christian God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is not the same God as their God! What’s with that?
Dorko, there are no inaccuracies in what I have said. Read my next post. 
[quote=“IRONMAN”]
Dorko, there are no inaccuracies in what I have said. Read my next post. [/quote]
I wait with bated breath, Junior.
Answer both questions please and the follow on question:
So not all Muslims want to kill Christians, in your wisdom which Muslims want to kill Christians and which dont?
So you see, the “unbelievers” and “disbelievers” in the Qran are Christians and Jews. In some verses the terms are used to describe Christiansd, in others to describe jews. The term “people of the book” is a reference to Christians.
Christians, Pagans, and Jews are all castigated as unbelievers, but the Koran’s main thrust is against Jews. Unbelievers in Muhammad as a prophet of God and in the Koran as God’s word, are depicted not only as infidels, but are reviled as vile liars and deceivers. The theme permeating the Koran is typified by the following verse:
[5.78] “Those of the children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus the son of Mary;… Evil is that which they did… Evil is that which their souls have sent before them, for God’s wrath is on them, and in the torment shall they dwell for aye. But had they believed in God and the Prophet, and what was revealed to him, they had not taken these for their patrons; but many of them are evildoers.”
In the Muslim religion, Christains and Jews are destined to hell, and they want to help us get there.
Does that mean that all Muslims want to do violence against the Christains and Jews. Ofcourse not. However, thier religion is still what it is. And …
As long as there are Muslims willing to act upon the words of the Qoran, there will be terrorists and chilren in Islam will be taught that the west is evil.
Ahhh! It’s starting so sink in now! tapping the 58 yr old on the side of his head with the tip of a pencil Let it in there dudey!
No comment as yet to the bits from the Bible then, must I assume that you as a Christian follow these practises. Must be a bit tiring all that killing. Bit of an intolerent religion you follow there grandpa.
Your sentance was poorly structured. But I think I have already answered you several times. Read what is posted so you don’t, like an idiot, keep asking the same questions over, and over, and over, again.
The Qoran teaches Muslims to be violent and kill Christians. It does, you’ve read the quotes from it.
No it does not. Not one of those quotes you use said anything about Christians.
As long as there are Muslims willing to act on the words of the Qoran, there will be terrorists. And that is true as well.
So only Muslims are terrorists? Red army faction, November 17, Baader-Meinhof, Red Brigades?
Who the hell is Chris Tucker?
Do you not know that in many Muslim schools in the Middle East the teachers outright state to the children that the west is evil and westerners are “unbelievers” and worship a man instead of God? Do you not know this really? It might help you to stop playing soldier so much, quit spending all of your time on the Net, and learn something about the world outside of your door.
Who told you that?
Islam swore to destroy the Christians in the Qran before Christins went after them in the Crusades. Yup. That’s true. The Crusades did not take place until centuries after the Qoran was written. Even so, I don’t see how it matters.
So why did the Christians live happily in Jerusalem prior to the crusades and under the control of Muslims. Why is there a large Christian and Jewish population in Iraq?
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Muslims do not worship God. Their God is a pagan one. Muhammed did not change that. He is considered by Muslims to be the last prophet of “Allah”. So who is “Allah”? Your guess is as good as mine I suppose
Muslims do not worship the same God that Christians do.
This is excellent you have given me a good laugh:lol:. Muslims acknowledge Christ as a prophet so all the above must be wrong and your link said that as well. They also recognise all the prophets in the old testament as their religion is based on it, like Christianity it is related to Judaism. So the god of Jehovah is the is the same as Mohammad.
What terrorism are you talking about?
http://www.rickross.com/groups/abortion.html
quote from my link.
Hill, a one-time Presbyterian minister, has said God led him to shoot Dr. John Britton, 69, and his driver, James Barrett, 74, as they arrived at a Pensacola abortion clinic in July 1994.
Now, if you are talking about the few wackos who use the Bible to support their acts of violence, I would say that they are off their rockers. There are always the fringers in every culture. However, those unbalanced persons cannot be compared to mass teaching of children and cultural foundation that Christians are evil and worthy of death, as Muslim children are taught, and Christins are not taught.
So it is ok for the bible to produce wackos but not the Koran?
quotes from ironman’s link well worth a look :lol:
Muslim’s claim that Isaiah 42 is a prophecy of Muhammad. Yet Isaiah 53 is one of the foremost prophecies of the crucifixion of Christ in the entire Old Testament. My question is: on what basis do you feel Isaiah 42 is uncorrupted which prophecies Muhammad, but Isaiah 53 is corrupted that prophesies the crucifixion of Christ?
My question is: If you feel the Bible is so corrupted, than why do you quote Deut 18:18 and John 16:13 as uncorrupted prophecies of Muhammad’s comment in the sixth century AD.
So this is were you got all that crap from.
I got fed up of reading all the crap, but one thing is quite clear from your link which you have not seen, probably because you have not understood it, is that they talk about the same god just different interpretations.
How can you argue that:
Quite simple really.
- The Qoran does not state that Christins should be killed.
Does it say on any page that Christians must be killed?
- Muslims are taught from the Qoran and required to read every word of it from early childhood.
And what is wrong with that?
- Muslims do not theink the west is full of evil.
My god! I spent 12 weeks sharing a room with one, I am luck to get out alive. Got a nice photo of him.
What’s to argue about there? How can you possibly claim that those things are not so?
How can you possibly argue they are?
Does that mean that all Muslims want to do violence against the Christains and Jews. Ofcourse not. However, thier religion is still what it is. And …
As long as there are Muslims willing to act upon the words of the Qoran, there will be terrorists and chilren in Islam will be taught that the west is evil.
What are you saying here, the first bit seems to mean that only a certain hardcore are going to do violence (my emphasis) but the rest seems more like a broad condemnation of all Muslims (as most of them were children at one point and were, according to you taught to hate the West.
So which is it all or as we have been saying just the radical fringe?
[quote]Fuchs66 wrote:
Answer both questions please and the follow on question:So not all Muslims want to kill Christians, in your wisdom which Muslims want to kill Christians and which dont?
Your sentance was poorly structured. But I think I have already answered you several times. Read what is posted so you don’t, like an idiot, keep asking the same questions over, and over, and over, again.[/quote]
No you haven’t answered my questions, go on just once in your life keep your finger away from the cut and paste and give 3 straight precise and short answers to my questions.
edit to add:
My sentence may be poorly structured but at least I can spell the word sentence (well I did study chemistry and not philosophy, due to wanting a decent job for my efforts)
edit: to replace the quotes and keep 'im 'appy
Show me where it says in the Bible that Christains should kill Muslims.
:lol:
Do you know nothing at all about Christianity?
Jesus said:
(brother refers to any man)
“You have heard that it has been written, “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.”. But I say unto you, that should your brother smite you on your left cheek, offer to him your right as well.”
“Love your brother as you love yourself.”
“If you say that you love me and love not your brother, you are a liar, because to love me is to love your brother.”
“Forgive those who trespass against you.”
Your sentance was poorly structured. But I think I have already answered you several times. Read what is posted so you don’t, like an idiot, keep asking the same questions over, and over, and over, again.
No you haven’t answered my questions, go on just once in your life keep your finger away from the cut and paste and give 3 straight precise and short answers to my questions.
edit to add:
My sentence may be poorly structured but at least I can spell the word sentence (well I did study chemistry and not philosophy, due to wanting a decent job for my efforts)[/quote]
Wait now, you are quoting yourself and saying it was my quote. I did not write:
You did. You have intentionally misquoted me with what you yourself said.
Your answer has been posted repeately. You gain nothing by acting like a dink and pretending that it has not been.