Hitler's Biggest Mistake?

What is this? Part of a conspiracy with Egorka to keep agreeing with me? :smiley:

The main goal for the Japanes was the resources of Asia. The giant resources of Syberia was simply unknowen at that time.
The final Japanes aim was the Asia no doubt but the concequences of attack is not obvoiuse. According the simple strategic logic they could win this was if they acted together with Gernany as aliies. But thanks for the god us the did not.
The Hitler was in fury when had learned the Japanes will not attack the USSR in the Far East. As the resault the 8 fresh division from Syberia saved the Moscow in the winter of 1941.
The simple logic of war could forced the Japane to help the Germany to finish the USSR firstly and AFTER than to began the capturing of the Asia.
The realasing the enourmous the Germans armies in the East (if the USSR was beaten) let the Germnany to begin the offencive to the Near East through the Caucaus and Iran and finally to take the Britain for the throat. This was a best moment to attack the Asia for the Japanes( probably in the spring-summer of 1942).
The collapse of USSR could get the Japane the enourmouses territories of Eastern Syberia. Besides the Soviet supporting of Chins had come to the end in this case. And as the resault the Chinas resistence could be succesfully supressed.

Cheers

At my post #130 I outlined why Japan wasn’t too supportive of Germany’s assault on Russia.

I don’t know of any historical evidence for it, but I’ve wondered if it suited Japan to leave Germany to fight the USSR on its own, thus keeping the USSR off Japan’s back and keeping the Germans away from any areas of Japanese interest.

If Germany lost against the USSR, as it did, Japan was no worse off because of it.

If Germany won, Japan would have been able to attack a weakened USSR, or perhaps get eastern Siberia as part of a peace deal without any serious fighting.

Another problem for Japan in attacking Russia in mid-1941, or at any time, was the risk that diverting forces away from fighting the Chinese could find Japan fighting a war on two fronts and eventually caught in a pincer if the Russians counter-attacked vigorously. It would then have had to divert forces required for its southward drive to China / Russia fronts.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Japan’s decision to go southwards was confirmed at Imperial Conference on 2 July 1941, after Germany had launched Barbarossa on 22 June 1941 and was advancing rapidly.

Not conspiracy just the a excellent grass which we’ve smoke. :smiley:

At my post #130 I outlined why Japan wasn’t too supportive of Germany’s assault on Russia.

I don’t know of any historical evidence for it, but I’ve wondered if it suited Japan to leave Germany to fight the USSR on its own, thus keeping the USSR off Japan’s back and keeping the Germans away from any areas of Japanese interest.

If Germany lost against the USSR, as it did, Japan was no worse off because of it.

If Germany won, Japan would have been able to attack a weakened USSR, or perhaps get eastern Siberia as part of a peace deal without any serious fighting.

Yes but If Germany lost in the East the Germany should be beaten by the allias.
By this way the whole power of allies began the war with Japane and they inevitably would lost.
So this is wrong IMO to think the Japanes were so stupid to think the defeat of Germany had no relation to the them.
The ONLY allien action of both Germany and Japane could had the effective resault.

Another problem for Japan in attacking Russia in mid-1941, or at any time, was the risk that diverting forces away from fighting the Chinese could find Japan fighting a war on two fronts and eventually caught in a pincer if the Russians counter-attacked vigorously. It would then have had to divert forces required for its southward drive to China / Russia fronts.

Firstly i think the China’s resistence was not a seiouse problem for them ( if they finaly desided to attack the Asia)
Se to attack the soviet territory was not a great problem for them in 1941.
Becouse the Kwantung army occuped the territory of Manchguria and was very close to the bother of USSR.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Japan’s decision to go southwards was confirmed at Imperial Conference on 2 July 1941, after Germany had launched Barbarossa on 22 June 1941 and was advancing rapidly.

Well i heared this statement early.
But i read the another point also.
The Japane had wait - if the Moscow has falled in the authumn of 1941 they immediatelly began the attack of USSR ( they chosed in this case the “north direction”) and the attack of asia should be put aside for a time.
The Japanes simply were afraid of.They wait while the Hitler presented tehn the Syberia instead of to help him to win the Red Army;)

Is this grass one of the valuable resources discovered in Siberia since WWII? Maybe Tundra Thunder? :smiley:

Yes but If Germany lost in the East the Germany should be beaten by the allias.
By this way the whole power of allies began the war with Japane and they inevitably would lost.
So this is wrong IMO to think the Japanes were so stupid to think the defeat of Germany had no relation to the them.

I’m not so sure, so far as Japanese thinking went. Japan and Germany were really pursuing quite separate aims, with Germany having the distraction of Italy blundering about the German theatre and causing problems for Germany (and Italy!). Germany and Japan had a common enemy in communism, but they weren’t engaged in a common enterprise against common national enemies like the Allies were. They just happened to be fighting the same enemies in different places for their own reasons. The Allies worked on the Germany First policy, but the Japanese didn’t know that and it didn’t come into existence until after Japan attacked.

If we remember that the Japanese southern strategy was to grab territory and hold it until the West accepted the conquests, and that the whole purpose of the exercise was to create a self-sufficient trading bloc based on Japan, it didn’t matter much in Japanese thinking what happened elsewhere, as long as the rest of the world wasn’t communist and allowed Japan to keep its conquests.

The ONLY allien action of both Germany and Japane could had the effective resault.

Agreed.

The whole problem is that they didn’t operate as allies with common aims. If they had, one strategy would have been for Japan to attack Russia first early in, say, 1941; fight hard enough to draw troops from the west; and weaken the western front for the German assault. Again, if the Axis powers had co-operated, Italy wouldn’t have been blundering about in Greece and distracting Germany from Barbarossa at a critical time. Alternatively, Japan could have used the forces it used for its southward advance for an assault on Russia at the same time as Barbarossa started, or better still later in autumn as you mentioned, or even in winter without much military advance but still drawing in Russian troops, thus creating a dilemma for Russia about where to send its forces and how to manage the huge logistics on two fronts thousands of miles apart and perhaps making the wrong decision. It doesn’t follow that Russia, or the USSR, would inevitably have been beaten by better Axis co-operation as there was always the risk that Russia could retreat east and sap the Germans while holding the Japanese, but with strong Japanese forces pressing on their eastern front it might have defeated the USSR or resulted in peace terms.

Firstly i think the China’s resistence was not a seiouse problem for them ( if they finaly desided to attack the Asia)
Se to attack the soviet territory was not a great problem for them in 1941.
Becouse the Kwantung army occuped the territory of Manchguria and was very close to the bother of USSR.

You’re right.

I made the mistake of thinking of the situation much later than 1941, with greater Allied support for China. Not that the Chinese were a great threat even then, but they still held Japanese forces against them which couldn‘t be used elsewhere.

Well i heared this statement early.
But i read the another point also.
The Japane had wait - if the Moscow has falled in the authumn of 1941 they immediatelly began the attack of USSR ( they chosed in this case the “north direction”) and the attack of asia should be put aside for a time.

You may be right.

In Singapore: The Japanese Version, Masanobu Tsuji who was a staff officer closely involved in planning the Malayan / Thai invasions, gives some surprising details about the lateness of decisions to identify and attack these southern targets. It may be that firmer decisions had been made at higher levels unknown to him, but it is also consistent with other options being left open until the last moment.

The Japanes simply were afraid of. They wait while the Hitler presented tehn the Syberia instead of to help him to win the Red Army;)

I’m reading this to mean that the Japanese were afraid of attacking the Russians. That is probably correct. They got badly mauled at Nomonhan (Khalkhin Gol) in 1939 and weren’t keen to tackle Russia again. The neutrality treaty of 13 April 1941 reflects that, and also indicates that Japan wanted to make sure that it was free to move southwards without worrying about fighting the Russians http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/s1.htm This is reinforced by the declaration regarding Mongolia http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/s2.htm

Japan freed itself to move southwards without getting involved in the fight between Germany and the USSR. It also negotiated it long before Barbarossa, and concluded it formally a couple of months before Barbarossa.

I don’t think that Japan was too keen on getting into a fight with Russia, with or without Barbarossa. And Hitler failed to realise it.

I/m not sure it was Tundra Thunder but it definitelly much more stronger the vodka :wink:

I’m not so sure, so far as Japanese thinking went. Japan and Germany were really pursuing quite separate aims, with Germany having the distraction of Italy blundering about the German theatre and causing problems for Germany (and Italy!). Germany and Japan had a common enemy in communism, but they weren’t engaged in a common enterprise against common national enemies like the Allies were. They just happened to be fighting the same enemies in different places for their own reasons. The Allies worked on the Germany First policy, but the Japanese didn’t know that and it didn’t come into existence until after Japan attacked.

Certainly the aims of Japane and Germany were a different.
I could not imagine what place the Japanes took in the Nazy race scale - somewhere between the monkeys and african aborigens.:smiley:
But there is no any doubt although they were a different but they could win only together becouse they fought agains common enamy.
And the fact of Japanes stupidly in the 1941 is just proved this. Instead strategic influence against enemy - they prefered its own egoistic war assaults- and as the resault they were beaten separatelly.

If we remember that the Japanese southern strategy was to grab territory and hold it until the West accepted the conquests, and that the whole purpose of the exercise was to create a self-sufficient trading bloc based on Japan, it didn’t matter much in Japanese thinking what happened elsewhere, as long as the rest of the world wasn’t communist and allowed Japan to keep its conquests.

Although the Japane had its own aims the war with USSR and Allies was inevitable becouse the Japane has roughly destroyed the its interests in the 1941.
So i have to say the any strategy of Japane ( north or south) should inevitably bring them to the total war aith West And USSR. The difference was in the time.
Only finishing the USSR in the 1941-42 could save the both Germany and Japane from defeat.

The whole problem is that they didn’t operate as allies with common aims. If they had, one strategy would have been for Japan to attack Russia first early in, say, 1941; fight hard enough to draw troops from the west; and weaken the western front for the German assault. Again, if the Axis powers had co-operated, Italy wouldn’t have been blundering about in Greece and distracting Germany from Barbarossa at a critical time. Alternatively, Japan could have used the forces it used for its southward advance for an assault on Russia at the same time as Barbarossa started, or better still later in autumn as you mentioned, or even in winter without much military advance but still drawing in Russian troops, thus creating a dilemma for Russia about where to send its forces and how to manage the huge logistics on two fronts thousands of miles apart and perhaps making the wrong decision. It doesn’t follow that Russia, or the USSR, would inevitably have been beaten by better Axis co-operation as there was always the risk that Russia could retreat east and sap the Germans while holding the Japanese, but with strong Japanese forces pressing on their eastern front it might have defeated the USSR or resulted in peace terms.

Agre Rising Sun.
The problem of Axis was the fact they never acted like the allies.
We acted but they did not. And therefore we have win this war.
Why the Axis was not allies and prefered to run its personal aims this-is their problem.:wink:

I made the mistake of thinking of the situation much later than 1941, with greater Allied support for China. Not that the Chinese were a great threat even then, but they still held Japanese forces against them which couldn‘t be used elsewhere.

Yes the 1.2 million Kwantung army which hold the China was the biggest infantry army of Japane. And they had to exclude this big force from the action for a whole war.

In Singapore: The Japanese Version, Masanobu Tsuji who was a staff officer closely involved in planning the Malayan / Thai invasions, gives some surprising details about the lateness of decisions to identify and attack these southern targets. It may be that firmer decisions had been made at higher levels unknown to him, but it is also consistent with other options being left open until the last moment.

Did you hear about a brilliant soviet intelligence agent Richard Zorge.
He worked in German embassy in Tokio. He was first who reported to the Moscow the date of begin the Barbarossa 22 june of 1941. Another his importaint datas was the information that Japane will not attack the soviet Far East in the authumn of 1941if the Moscow will not fall - this infor let the hight command to take the troops from the Syberia.
Later this man was arrested by the Japanes ( in december of 1941) and after 4 years being in prison he was exequted in the last month of war.

I’m reading this to mean that the Japanese were afraid of attacking the Russians. That is probably correct. They got badly mauled at Nomonhan (Khalkhin Gol) in 1939 and weren’t keen to tackle Russia again. The neutrality treaty of 13 April 1941 reflects that, and also indicates that Japan wanted to make sure that it was free to move southwards without worrying about fighting the Russians http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/s1.htm This is reinforced by the declaration regarding Mongolia http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/s2.htm

Yes this is exactly that i mean.
The unsuccesfull attack of the Halking Gol in the 1939 forced the Japanes in the 1941 more carefully think about possible invasion to the USSR. Perhaps they though the Britain would not so seriouse enemy in the Asia ( and oprobably thehy were right at least in the firs period of war).
But inevitable involving the USA (the state which had a ten times more power industry!!!) the into the war was a pure suicide. What was the reason which forced Japane to think they could alone win the UK/US is a mustery for me.
Do you know?

Japan freed itself to move southwards without getting involved in the fight between Germany and the USSR. It also negotiated it long before Barbarossa, and concluded it formally a couple of months before Barbarossa.

Indeed the Japance had a plans of invasion to the Syberia a long time ago untill WW2.
The one of the first "attempts’ was the battles of 1938 in Mongolia and 1939 in the soviet border.

I don’t think that Japan was too keen on getting into a fight with Russia, with or without Barbarossa. And Hitler failed to realise it.

The fight with USSR would be inevitable in the way of Japane agression to the China and mongolia.And Japanece knew it very well. But in the 1941 as you say they had a keen dilemma what way to be the choosed.
Thy chosed more EASY way (as they thought) and finaly losed

If it’s stronger than 500% alcohol Russian vodka, I don’t know why the USSR bothered with a space program. You could launch yourself into space on that stuff. :smiley: (P.S. Is there any available for export? :wink: )

I could not imagine what place the Japanes took in the Nazy race scale - somewhere between the monkeys and african aborigens.

But inevitable involving the USA (the state which had a ten times more power industry!!!) the into the war was a pure suicide. What was the reason which forced Japane to think they could alone win the UK/US is a mustery for me.
Do you know?

What I know is that both Japan and Germany suffered from the belief that they were racially and militarily superior to everyone else, and to each other.

“Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”
Proverbs 16:18

Did you hear about a brilliant soviet intelligence agent Richard Zorge.
He worked in German embassy in Tokio. He was first who reported to the Moscow the date of begin the Barbarossa 22 june of 1941. Another his importaint datas was the information that Japane will not attack the soviet Far East in the authumn of 1941if the Moscow will not fall - this infor let the hight command to take the troops from the Syberia.
Later this man was arrested by the Japanes ( in december of 1941) and after 4 years being in prison he was exequted in the last month of war.

I know about him, but not in detail.

You have to hand it to the Japanese, executing him in the last month of the war when the Russians were heading for Japan. Not unlike trying and executing American airmen for bombing Japan when defeat was looming. Definitely guaranteed to improve relations with nations about to conquer Japan. :confused:

Thy chosed more EASY way (as they thought) and finaly losed

That about sums it up.

I voted, “Not taking the British out early in the war”.

Without Britain in the equation D-Day would’ve most certaintly been near-impossible.
With that in mind the Germans could have concentrated purely on the Eastern Front without having to deal with a new one due to D-Day.
Not to mention there would be no air-support(superiority) for the allies over Europe.
I would also imagine Germany would have more aircraft since there would be no more Britain to terror bomb every night.

Of course this is going too deep and is obviously impossible to dictate what may/may not have happened.

Always interesting to think and contemplate these things though.

I have to say declaring war on the USSR, Germany was ill prepared for the horrid Russian winters,Now you had a fight on two fronts US and UK<GERMANY>USSR,
also if they would have kept the soviets as an powerfully ally they could have beat the US and Britain,But the biggest mistake was made by Hideki Tojo if he would have not attacked the US it would have given Germany the time to take out Britain and as Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto said,“I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve”.

I would have to say Hitlers biggest mistake was not taking out Britain.

If Britain were to fall early on in the war then the outcome would be entirely different. Instead of Hitler having to fight and worry about four aspects of the war (The Atlantic, North Africa, invasion of mainland Europe, and the Soviet Union) It would be limited to only one, the Soviet Union. Judging from the speed and success of conquest of the Soviet Union the added troops and supplies not having to be used in the North African campaign but also in the the Atlantic and the Atlantic Wall, would have greatly helped the German offensive. The Battle of Stalingrad was a close and hard one, and with Hitler directing all his resources and attention to the Soviet Union, Stalingrad would have been captured and the Soviet Union taken. With most of Europe (all the important bits) under Germany, there would be absolutely no incentive for the U.S. to enter the war in Europe. We also cannot forget the Commonwealth and its massive contribution to the war effort, and they would certainly not have entered the war either.

With Britain gone, there would be no bombings of German cities, no S.O.E. helping the resistance, and no Royal Navy to combat the German Navy. With the largest navy (Royal Navy) under German hands, Hitler would rule much of the seas. So in my opinion, Britain was an extremely important aspect of the war that needed to be eliminated fairly early on in order for hitler to have complete success.

But then again, im not a historian, and until i become one :slight_smile: this is up for debate.

personally i think that their biggest mistake was letting the brittish get away because if they hadn’t done that they would totally have won. by allowing the savillians and soldiers to get to saftey with more ammo and such they basically gave themselves a death penalty, good thing for the USA, France, England, and all the other effected countries

The main Commonwealth countries that fought Germany declared war against Germany on the same date that Britain did (Australia and New Zealand) or within a week of that date (Canada).

Presumably they would have followed Britain out of the war in the same way they followed it in, if Britain had come to peace terms with Germany.

I don’t know that they would have surrendered if Britain was defeated, as they were far enough away to look to their own interests after such an event. A negotiated peace by each country would have been more likely as Germany would have had little or no interest in striking that far from its borders in 1940.

do any of you know anything major about hitlers rise to power im doing an essay on it for extra credit more like a short book but i need info and fast due tomorrow 5,000 words no joke help me out

Try this for a summary. http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/index.htm

Not winning the war :frowning:

Amen to that!:smiley:

Regards digger

How about just starting it?

It must be fascinating living in fairytale land.

let m guess your german?

thanks SO SO SO much!

German-American, but that does not bias me either way.

it’s all good cause im german-american-british- so im all conflicked