Wouldnt the fact that the US bombed Iran allow the Iranians another excuse to interfere even more in Southern Iraq, thus endangering British forces stationed there even more than they are now?
Nothing is ever done in isolation.
So the fact that Israel has mostly killed Lebanese civillians so far does not bother you? I am not for any terrorists organisation at all, I also agree that Israel has the right to defend itself, but the response has to be tailored to meet the threat. I dont think ruining the whole recovering Lebanese economy makes any sense. In my opinion the more families they kill, the more enemies they are making for themselves in the long term,as if they need more enemies.
Certainly I agree on that.
Yes, and especially the American forces on the ground there…
I see it as fighting fire with fire. I don’t agree that it is ok to kill civilians. I’m on the side of Israel because they did not start the killing of civilians.
I suppose that depend on you view of history, its written in the Bible that the Jews were given the promised land by God. If we read the Bible as history that means essentially that they moved in from Sinia and took the land away from its inhabitants, smiting them, man woman and child as they went.
By 1947 things were a little diffrent with the Jewish insurgency in Israel blowing up British soldiers right left and centre and killing their opponents in what can only be described in modern terms as what we see in the factional killings in Iraq today.
The founders of the first Israeli Government were terrorists and carried out various acts of terrorism on thier Arab neighbours.
So it can be pretty subjective as to who was killing who and when.
My point is? Well they are both as bad as each other and the only sure thing is that many many more inoccent people will die for many years to come, its being hapening for 3000 years and looks likely to be happening for another!
I agree with you Firefly. How far back we go with history is always going to be a factor. I still support Israel, because I feel the current situation was caused by the Arab terrorist groups(who are also governing the countries involved).
Tiger, I also agree with you in principle. Although I dont think Hezbollah are governing the Lebanon, I just think the Lebanese Government is too weak without support to do anything about it short of starting another Civil War, which is something they really cant afford to do. I think its a damned shame that the Lebanese have to suffer by having their recovering economy devastated once again. A damned shame that.
It worths a reading:
UN Security Council Resolution 1559 (2004)
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sc8181.doc.htm
Edited: Article 3: . Calls for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias
No, but Hezbollah hold 14 seat in the Lebanese National Assembly. As Dani has pointed out The UN called for “the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias”. It is the Lebanese governments failure to do this that has caused the conflict with Israel. I guess maybe the point (government lacking support) you put forward for this lack of action could be the reason.
I understand that. However Lebanon has just recently got rid of the Syrians and the Syrians I’m sure still have influence over certain parts of the country. The Lebanese government is not strong enough to go against Hezbollah right now.
You and Dani bring up a point about UN resolutions, though, there have beend several resolutions regarding Israel as well that have not been adhered to by that country.
A hughely complicated mess that only brings misery to the majority of the people from that region both Arab and Israeli.
I always thought that if general Motors or some other big company were to open a car plant or something in Gaza most of their problems could be solved. Once people have money to spend their priorities tend to change.
Almost every serious (non-Israeli) military analyst I’ve seen has said that Israel is perpetuating a tragic blunder and severe miscalculation by sending armor and infantry back into Lebanon to engage a guerrilla, and perhaps an understrength Lebanese, Army. And, they (the IDF) really haven’t had a great couple of weeks…
Hezbollah captured 2 Israeli soldiers and killed 8 in an unprovoked border raid. Israel is just defending itself against these Iranian-backed terrorists. Lebanon will learn this is the price a government will pay for harboring and giving parliament seats to an avowed terrorist group.
The Israeli army is attacking with surgical precision Hezbollah’s areas in southern Lebanon and, unfortunately, as in ALL eager to fight actions, innocent civilians will suffer as they did during the bombings of Hiroshima, Dresden and Berlin, etc., during WWII
I support Israel 100% and hope the kick the SH-T of Hezbollah.
Where Terrorists Get Their Missiles
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20060719.aspx
July 19, 2006: The Chinese-designed C-802 missile that damaged an Israeli Saar 5-class corvette recently has implications beyond the present conflict in Lebanon. It shows that the threat of a transfer of weapons technology, from a state sponsor of terrorism like Iran, to a terrorist group, is very real.
Transferring an anti-ship missile like the C-802 is very difficult. Anti-ship missiles are big (the C-802 weighs 1500 pounds and is 21 feet long), and the launch vehicles are going to be about as big as a tractor-trailer rig. This is a system that is conspicuous, and hard to hide. The other thing to consider is that other stuff could be transferred as well. China has provided Iran at least 75 of these missiles, which have been installed on a variety of Iranian vessels (including newly-acquired missile boats from China, as well as older Sa’am-class frigates and Kaman-class patrol craft). China, of course, has received missile technology transfers from Israel (albeit this technology was for the Patriot surface-to-air missile, and had nothing to do with Chinese anti-ship missiles – an Israeli sale of its Phalcon AEW system was aborted). Israel also turned over data from the Lavi project, which later was used in the J-10 program.
Iran’s transfer of C-802 missiles (along with the training to use them) is not the only such threat that has been worried about. One of the reasons that the removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq was the possibility of the transference of chemical or biological weapons. The amount of these weapons needed to cause mass casualties are small – and artillery shells full of sarin nerve gas or mustard gas are much smaller than a C-802. Vials of anthrax, ricin, or smallpox are even smaller. The thought of weapons of mass destruction possibly getting into the hands of terrorists who are willing to die to complete their mission warranted removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime, which had not shown the ability to transfer weaponry to terrorists (although Saddam Hussein was willing to cut $25,000 checks to the families of murder-suicide bombers).
Iran, though, now has been known to provide Hezbollah with anti-ship missiles. In a very real sense, the Iranian transfer of at least two such missiles has highlighted the threat posed by state sponsors of terrorism. If something like an anti-ship missile can be transferred, with all the inherent transportation difficulties moving one entails, what else has Iran given Hezbollah? And what else would Iran be willing to transfer if they were to have the opportunity? These are questions that will make world leaders very nervous. – Harold C. Hutchison (haroldc.hutchison@gmail.com)
The Plan Unfolds
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/israel/articles/20060721.aspx
July 21, 2006: The Israeli attacks on Hizbollah military facilities are having an effect, with rocket Hizbollah launches down by more than half (to about 40 today). Israel has several thousand troops in southern Lebanon, and they are going after the Hizbollah rocket launching teams. The Israelis have found that their tactic of dropping leaflets warning civilians to stay away from residential areas used to store weapons, and especially rockets, has worked. Despite Hizbollah efforts for force civilians to stay in their homes, the the vast majority of civilians fled villages and neighborhoods where it was known Hizbollah was storing rockets. Thus most of the Israeli bombs destroyed rockets and housing, not people. The UN has not accepted this, but has bowed to media spin and pro-Hizbollah propaganda, to get behind the terrorists, and accuse Israel of using “disproportionate force.” The UN is demanding a cease fire (which, to Hizbollah, is interpreted as a pause before the next round of attacks on Israel). Despite frequent UN rhetoric about the benefits of democracy, they appear to have an imperfect grasp of how it actually works. For example, if a terrorist group were to fire a thousand rockets into any democracy, the citizens of said democracy would demand military action against the attackers, not a cease fire and avoidance of “disproportionate response.”
Israel is now moving into the second week of a three week military operation. The first week was mainly a bombing campaign to cripple Hizbollah’s ability to easily move men and munitions around, and to destroy Hizbollah facilities, particularly rocket storage sites. The air campaign has hit about 1,200 targets so far, including some 200 rocket storage sites. There have been about a thousand Lebanese casualties, less than one per air strike.
The second week has small groups of ground troops going into southern Lebanon to investigate suspected rocket storage sites. This tactic has uncovered those storage sites Hizbollah was able to build and hide from Israeli air and satellite reconnaissance. So far, about half the Hizbollah stocks of rockets have been destroyed, while about a thousands of the rockets have been fired into Israel. It’s currently estimated that Hizbollah had some 14,000 rockets, mostly smaller (122mm) ones.
Hizbollah had also trained several dozen teams of men to get the rockets out of their storage sites and launch them into northern Israel. In the third week of the Israeli military plan, more troops will go into southern Lebanon, and Hizbollah fighters killed or driven out. At that point, Lebanon or the UN can be invited to come in and take charge of the area, with some guarantees (a big sticking point) that Hizbollah will not move back. If that doesn’t work, Israel has the option of creating a 30-40 kilometer deep neutral zone in southern Lebanon. Several hundred thousand Lebanese civilians have already fled that zone, and may not be allowed back in until something is done about Hizbollah.
Let’s Check the Track Records
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/israel/articles/20060723.aspx
July 22, 2006: Europeans are talking about ceasefire and the establishment of a “neutral zone” in southern Lebanon. The UN won’t be able to do it, as they have a dreadful track record in this department. The current UNIFIL force in southern Lebanon only has about 2000 troops and 500 cops and civilian staff – hardly sufficient to cope with Hezbollah, even if their Rules of Engagement (ROE) allowed it. UNIFIL is supposed to monitor the border, and has regularly failed at that. So the neutral zone would have to be patrolled by European troops, operating under a “shoot-to-kill” ROE. Most Lebanese (but not the Shia, who back Hizbollah) would support this. The Europeans are pressuring the Christian and Sunni Lebanese to say publicly, what they have been saying privately for decades; Hizbollah has to go.
Let’s Check the Track Records
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/israel/articles/20060723.aspx
July 23, 2006: Hizbollah’s rocket offensive is faltering. While up to a hundred rockets were launched into northern Israel on some days last week, the number has fallen to about 40 a day. Fewer of them are the longer range (up to 40 kilometers, or more). Most are the 122mm rockets, with a range of about 20 kilometers. These have shut down most economic activity in many parts of northern Israel, and killed or injured over a hundred Israelis. This has caused some 80 percent of Israeli voters to back the operations against Lebanon.
Israel’s Northern Command can mobilize over 180,000 troops. The Lebanese army has only 70,000 soldiers, so a battle with the Lebanese army is unlikely, despite Lebanese promises to send troops to the assistance of Hizbollah. In addition to its guerrilla fighters, Hizbollah has a couple of brigades armed and trained for conventional operations. These may be the best trained “regular” troops in the region, barring those that Israel isn’t likely to fight (Jordan, Egypt, Turkey), and it’s believed that Hizbollah hopes that they could take on Israeli troops in a conventional battle. To that end, sending Israeli ground forces into southern Lebanon is intended to draw Hizbollah’s conventional forces out, in anticipation of an invasion. In that way, Hizbollah might lay its conventional forces open to air and artillery attack, and probably selective ground and commando action.
The Lebanese Christians are probably more enthusiastic about fighting Hizbollah, than Israelis, and the Sunnis probably not much less so. But Israel has to be careful to avoid open clashed with Lebanese regular troops. Israel has always maintained communication with the various factions in Lebanon, either directly (as with the Christians) or indirectly. In this way, discussions, sometimes heated, have taken place over what to do with Hizbollah. It breaks down like this. To most Lebanese, the Shia (about 35 percent of the population), sold out to foreigners (Syria and Iran) in order to increase Shia power in Lebanon. The Shia had long constituted the poorest segment of Lebanese society, but this has changed since Syrian troops moved in during the 1980s, and assisted in the establishment of Hizbollah. This turned the Lebanese civil war (which began in 1975) into a deadlock, and led to a peace deal in 1990. But that didn’t end the civil war, it just brought about a cease fire. The Christian and Sunni majority put up with the Syrian occupation of the country until last year, when a popular uprising led to the Syrian withdrawal of their troops. But Hizbollah, which was supposed to disarm as part of the 1990 “peace” deal, continued to control the southern third of the country. Worse, many in Hizbollah, inspired by their Iranian patrons, talked about how great it would be if all of Lebanon were an Islamic republic, just like Iran.
Many Lebanese see the Hizbollah attack on Israel as a way for the Lebanese Shia to avoid a resumption of the civil war, over the disarmament of Hizbollah. Lebanese Shia remember what it was like to be at the bottom of the economic and social pecking order, and don’t want to return to the bad old days. Hizbollah (which got over $100 million a year from Iran) brought lots of jobs, as did the Syrian army of occupation. The Lebanese Shia see all that slipping away. By causing a war with Israel, the Lebanese Shia see an opportunity to unite all Lebanese behind them. Unfortunately, the Christian and Sunni Lebanese, while angry with the Israeli air campaign, are not enthusiastic about dying to maintain Hizbollah power. Israeli negotiations with the Lebanese agree on one thing; Hizbollah has to go. Lebanon cannot be free as long as Hizbollah maintains its own army, and controls a third of the country. The expulsion of the Syrian army last year was wildly popular, except among the Shia. The Israelis are waiting for public opinion among the Lebanese Christians and Sunnis to go against Hizbollah. This is why there has been no large scale movement of Israeli troops into southern Lebanon. Small units (no more than battalion strength, under a thousand troops) are going in to destroy Hizbollah bunker complexes that cannot be destroyed from the air.
To that end, Israeli orders for American deep penetrators (bunker buster bombs) have been speeded up, and those bombs are being delivered now. Israel already had several hundred of the GBU-24 penetrators, but last year ordered a hundred of the larger (2.5 ton) GBU-28. The GBU-28 can penetrate 100 feet of earth, or 20 feet of concrete. The lighter GBU-24 can manage less than half that.
Israel has watched (from the air, and via spies on the ground) as Hizbollah used lots of its Iranian money to build underground bunkers in the areas of southern Lebanon that Israel withdrew from in 2000. Hizbollah knew about the capabilities of the GBU-24 and 28, and built accordingly. That doesn’t make the Hizbollah bunkers invulnerable. The entrances can be destroyed, and if you can get all the access tunnels, you turn the bunker into a tomb. But with some of the bunkers, not all the access tunnels were known. There’s only so much that spies and air reconnaissance will tell you. However, the Israelis have had over six years to plan for this sort of operation. Based on past performance, you can expect some clever ideas. It’s not smart to underestimate the Israelis. For example, Israel shut down the Palestinian terrorists over the last few years. The pundits had declared this to be impossible. So was the Six Day war, and the creation of Israel itself. So, before you pick a probable outcome here, check the track records of the contenders. On the other side, you have radical Islam, which has accomplished very little. Terror is the tactic of the weak, or those short of better ideas. The Palestinian leadership has a long record of bad decisions and inept performance. Hizbollah succeeded via powerful backers (Iranian cash and the Syrian army). Now the Syrians are gone, and Hizbollah is caught between angry Israelis, and Lebanese fans, most of whom (the Christians and Sunnis) are cheering on Hizbollah through clenched teeth and forced smiles. Most Lebanese are content to see Hizbollah and Israel fight it out. But the Israeli war plan recognizes that, without some cooperation from the Lebanese Christians and Sunnis, Hizbollah will just keep it up. The Lebanese have to decide if they want a future with, or without, Hizbollah. While the Lebanese media speaks of Lebanese unity against Israeli aggression, private discussions in northern Lebanon are more about how to make the most of this opportunity to eliminate Hizbollah.
By killing over 400-500 Lebanese, 80% of them civilians, and 20% of them children. So, they’ve responded to a military ambush of Israeli soldiers with collective punishment and killing about 20 Lebanese for every Israeli killed…
Lebanon will learn this is the price a government will pay for harboring and giving parliament seats to an avowed terrorist group.
Well, they were independent for an entire year and have a weak national Army that is more symbolic that anything. Yes, Hezbollah are scum. But it’s interesting that Americans were cheering when the Lebanese rided themselves of Syrian influence, but now are largely standing by as economic targets that have little direct value to Hezbollah are destroyed…
The Israeli army is attacking with surgical precision Hezbollah’s areas in southern Lebanon and, unfortunately, as in ALL eager to fight actions, innocent civilians will suffer as they did during the bombings of Hiroshima, Dresden and Berlin, etc., during WWII
I didn’t know arbitarily bombing civilian areas was “surgical strikes.”
I support Israel 100% and hope the kick the SH-T of Hezbollah.
Yeah well, don’t be surprised when a good deal of the Arab world blames us for the $3billion we give Israel and this spawns more anti-American terrorism.
Nickdfresh,Looks like the U.N. actually figured out what Hezbolla has been doing with it’s civilians…
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205352,00.html
The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of “cowardly blending” among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.
You mean they can hate us MORE than they do now?