Modelling work of Strina Croatia.

They were not forbidden - only restricted in their use.

Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III),
1342 U.N.T.S. 171, 19 I.L.M. 1534, entered into force Dec. 2, 1983.
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1980e.htm

Article 1

Definitions

For the purpose of this Protocol:

  1. “Incendiary weapon” means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.

(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:

b Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems[/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_weapon
Since white phosphorus can be used as a multi-purpose device to mark targets, provide a smoke screen, or signal to friendly troops, it is not covered by UN protocols on incendiary weapons when used in this fashion. Use of aerial incendiary weapons against civilian populations, including against military targets in civilian areas, was banned (by adopting countries) in the 1980 United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons Protocol III. The USA has signed Articles I and II, but was not a signatory to Protocols III, IV, And V. This allows the US to use these weapons on military targets.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm
Col Venable told the BBC’s PM radio programme that the US army used white phosphorus incendiary munitions "primarily as obscurants, for smokescreens or target marking in some cases.

He said US forces could use white phosphorus rounds to flush enemy troops out of covered positions.

“The combined effects of the fire and smoke - and in some case the terror brought about by the explosion on the ground - will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives,” he said.

Common George do you seriously think the WP “have the incidental incendiary effects”?
Didi you see the photos of victims of this “incidental effect”.
And Protocol III is forbided the application any incendiary wearpon (napalm, WP and else) in any city where could be the civilians

Define a military target.

Using your argument tracer and illum (last I saw 81mm illum was 1,000,000 candle power so if that should hit anything it is going to burn) would be banned, as it will set fire to most things.

You also need to read the convention very closely.

WP smk grenades primary task is to hide you position or mark targets.

And smk is specifically not included.

Although you have shown pictures of casualties how can you confirm that they are non-combatants?

My point about the Russian artillery is that 20-25% of rounds fired was WP. Where as the US use a number of grenades and possibly 81mm bombs not the same scale.

Until you have had to use smk to cover/conceal your position on the two way range you will not understand how valuable it is compared to very slow acting chemical smk.

But the main point is, if the enemy hides behind and amongst the civilian population and actively uses them for cover then it will not be uncommon if they are caught up in the fight.

And the Royal Scots (first of foot, right of line, Ponchus Pilot’s body guard) have been amalgamated with the other Scottish regiments.

well , we must define WP ammunition for illumination (or for the smoke) and Incendiary WP ammunition. It’s obviously not the same.
As it was clear in Falluji was applued the Incendiary ( becouse the victims had a characters chemical burns).
Certainly i/m not the specialist of WP ammunition , but the different WP bombs exist.

You also need to read the convention very closely.

OK , now you will do this closely.

WP smk grenades primary task is to hide you position or mark targets.

Excuse me , dear mr. 2nd of foot, would you hide YOUR position by the wearpon which killed everybody in distance 150 meters around???
Not think so, therefore we talk about different WP-klass wearpon: you mean the illumination, i mean the WP incendiary bombs which were applied in Falluji.

And smk is specifically not included.

Although you have shown pictures of casualties how can you confirm that they are non-combatants?

You right, I can’t confirm. But italian director (who made the documental film) very convincingly showed the civil victims (women and children) of WP in Falluji. Also was showed the interview with american ex-soldier of battle for the Falluji who proved the application of WP-incedriary wearpon there.

My point about the Russian artillery is that 20-25% of rounds fired was WP.

Oh , 2nd of foot , it’s was “every 4 from 5” and now already “20-25%”. We are in right direction. Soon we could learn the true.
I STILL DIDN’T SEE ANY FACTs of application in Groznj of WP-incendiary wearpon…

Where as the US use a number of grenades and possibly 81mm bombs not the same scale.

But at the same time there’re a lot of documental evidences of US application WP in Iraq

Until you have had to use smk to cover/conceal your position on the two way range you will not understand how valuable it is compared to very slow acting chemical smk.

WP easy could be compared with chemical werpon - deep chemical burns (till bone). And your right this act very quickly.

But the main point is, if the enemy hides behind and amongst the civilian population and actively uses them for cover then it will not be uncommon if they are caught up in the fight.

So, this is DIRECT VIOLATION of Protocol II of Geneva convention of 1980.
(using the incendiary werpon in cities where are the civilians)

And the Royal Scots (first of foot, right of line, Ponchus Pilot’s body guard) have been amalgamated with the other Scottish regiments.

OK ,i didn’t know it . my best wishes for the Royal Scots.

Chevan you might want to consider that the other side is not playing by the Geneva conventions…they use civilians as protection. Plus its not like the insurgents are clearly marked with their “Im a bad guy” helmet. Who is a civilian and who is an insurgent only differs by who has a gun or a bomb(Note: Dont forget each Iraqi family is allowed one weapon for protection). This is not always so easy to see. So as in most battles im sure accidents happen.

So are suggesting that US-Coalition forces are …targeting civilians? And for what purpose to…just kill them or get thru the barrier or study how people from the middle east burn or what? :confused:

P.S. We need a better confusion smilies.

So this is the war without the rules Sandworm?
And if you not play in Geneva rules then is you better the extremists? Don’t forget the extremist the justify shahids and killing the hostages ( by cut off the neck) becouse they see as “coalition” soldiers murdered its womens and children. This cruel war can continie endless.
OK, your position is “if we will play on rules we lost the war” Is not it?
And we must to fight by any methods? MAy be you right. But why it’s needed to sentense Saddam for killing of 148 shiits (were they a real civilians or not)- this is look cinically for other islam nations, becouse probably US killed more shiits in Falluji just for one day!!!
Indeed i good understand your point. It was absolutly clear in Chechnij for me. The relatives of chechens who was killed during the first war 1994-1996 easy will agree to be shahids later during the second war. And we could avoid the much of terrorist attack, but the disision of Yeltsin command of oligarchs to enter the demoralised Russian army in 1994 in Chechnij not thought so.
I believe in 1994 we had the other ability to fuck the chechen bandits ( as example make the problems for Chechens diaspora in Moscow). But those oligarh bas… (by the way with jewish families) prefered to make a money on the war.

So are suggesting that US-Coalition forces are …targeting civilians? And for what purpose to…just kill them or get thru the barrier or study how people from the middle east burn or what? :confused:

P.S. We need a better confusion smilies.

Well you must ask yourself what realy do US-Coalition in Iraq?
If they do it for oil - this is senseless becouse the world oil price grow up in 3 times (!)since the invasion.
If they do it for democtacy and against Islam world extremism - thet’s OK i’m supported them. But why US decided to strike on Iraq??
As may be you know the oil islam states like Saudy Aravia, Iordan and ets officialy sended the money to the extremists ( they call it the “help for the supporting of Islam”). Using this money extremists has the war agains not-islam peoples including the western civilians). So why so rich and radical islamic states are “friend” of USA but poorest Iraq ( cause of 10 years sanctions) was cynicaly called as “enemy of western civilization”. And CIA outrageously lied about the Iraq’s mass-destruction wearpon till invasion.
I’m supported the J.Bush when he called to fight against islam extremism, but instead of to create realy strong coalition in Europe, US prefered the “particular” interest - to crush the personal american enemy Saddam and take its oil. What’s geniuslly!!
I think this can be good just for Israel - nobody else.
Now after the losing of election in US the “war party” - the Republicans, its seem US will forced to withdraw the troops (early or later) from Iraq And i’m very worry for the perspective in Iraq becouse may be you know :
“What don’t kill us - make us stronger”.
Hence islamic extremists could take the power again and now it will be not Saddam regime - much worst.

Cheers

It is clear you have no understanding of the use of WP. It is not an illumination devise, it is used to cover your movement or mark targets. It works by bursting WP into small parts that burn when in contact with oxygen and produce a dense smoke. It is the smoke we need, the burning is a by-product. It is not a chemical burn as most would understand (acid or alkali) but a very hot substance. It burns on contact and will stop burning if the oxygen is removed (under water) unlike acid that will continue to burn until washed off.

From and interesting reading.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/images/experi_03_burn.jpg

There is no WP ammunition use primarily as an incendiary in use today, the incendiary is a by-product of its primary task.

Excuse me , dear mr. 2nd of foot, would you hide YOUR position by the wearpon which killed everybody in distance 150 meters around???

As an MFC I used smk a lot closer to FF as the danger area for 81 smk is far less than HE and 40m is more accurate not 150m

You right, I can’t confirm. But italian director (who made the documental film) very convincingly showed the civil victims (women and children) of WP in Falluji. Also was showed the interview with american ex-soldier of battle for the Falluji who proved the application of WP-incedriary wearpon there.

The burns are caused by fire that may have been started by WP but as I have shown above a WP burn is not over the entire body.

Oh , 2nd of foot , it’s was “every 4 from 5” and now already “20-25%”. We are in right direction. Soon we could learn the true.

Do your maths 1 in 4 = 25% or every 4th round.

I STILL DIDN’T SEE ANY FACTs of application in Groznj of WP-incendiary wearpon

WP is not an incendiary but can be.

But at the same time there’re a lot of documental evidences of US application WP in Iraq

I would be very surprised if they did not, it is an excellent smk producer as shown below.

In this image you can clearly see the individual peaces of Phosphorous burning as they fall. It was initially thought that if they could make the WP peaces small and continue to suspend them in air they would also screen thermal images, but these proved not possible and other areas are being looked at.

Chemical smk would be that which is produced in large scale to cover a large area over a long time. This was used by during WW2 to cover towns from bombers, to mask the movement of troops prior to crossing the Rhine and on Soviet tanks and war ships. Its application at low level is only for signalling as it take too long to produce an affective screen.

My point is that the US-Coalition forces are bounded by the Geneva and UN resolutions. The other side is not. We have rules of engagement. They do not. I do believe that if US soliders commit a crime like that of the My Lai massacre than they should be punished. I dont think they punish their people for shooting a medic. So does that mean that we are morally correct by abiding by the rules or at least the best we can? To the rest of the world yes it matters because we are watched closely and represent the way a modern military should behave. To the soliders in the shit I think they are a bit more concerned with staying alive. On the other side they are not as concerned with the protection of themselves or their own.

BTW I still do not think that WP is illegal. A lot of news programs would need to retract their statement then. Dont think you get the point of the resolution you are stating either. Anyhow You talk about “oh look what it does to people” Does it really matter “even if they were illegal” cause you can find plently of pics that look the same from weapons that are legel. True Incendiary weapons usually kill a person way before they are burned. It sucks so much oxygen out of the air that if one was close enough to not feel the effect that they would almost sufficate. I think I would rather die instantly in war that have bits and pieces blown off and die a slow and painful death. You can moan about whatever but in this case people are dying and thats just how it is. But would you like to see a war crimes trial for Americans that mostly abided by the rules or those that totally disregared them?

All im saying is that in war accidents that break these resolutions happens all the time. Even when both sides are playing the rules. But things are worse for civilians in this case because the insurgents arent playing by the rules. And they arent just targeting US-Coalitions forces either. They are targeting Iraqis as well.

I dont think we should have ever gone into Iraq. Like I said Saddam is a bastard that no one will miss but he is one of plently around the world. Whatever the case for going in does not matter anymore. Its to late we are there. Are job is to help the Iraqis stand on their on feet and handle these problems and then get out. They understand the problems of Iraq much better than we do. However we cant leave just yet because it would do nothing but promote further civil war and more crisis. In which we would probably just have to go back in probably under the UN. Which brings more people to a mess we started.

Im sure that in some odd way Bush had a plan for entry and exit for Iraq. Although im totally convinced it would never work on this planet coz he is a moron. “Everybody has a plan untill they get hit.” Well we got hit hard and now things are fucked. However it is a war that has been coming for a long time…those who side with the west and those who dont. I dont care if all the insurgents cry peace in iraq and lay down there weapons and the Iraqis gain control of their country. There will still be unrest in the middle east. Its be a mess for the last 1000 years and I dont see any reason it should change anytime soon. All the religous groups over there hate each other and hate forigeners too. Funny that these 3 main religions in the middle east spark so much hate. :roll:

Insofar as Isreal…I think they will do whatever they want. When Saddam was at war with Iran he did have and active nuclear program. Isreal saw this as a threat and bombed the place off the map. Same with Iran. Iran and the US are currently playing the diplomatic game. Playing the rules. However if Iran does come to the point where they could start making nukes I have no doubt that Isreal would act uni-lateraly in striking Iran just as they did in early in the Iran-Iraq war. Or in any matter that they see as a threat to their country. Last summer for instance.

I know excellent the acting of WP and what it use for.
But you forget the WP could be mixed with different chemical materials ( for instance caoutchouc or napalm) and it will be very danger incendiary wearpon.
Look at picture below

The dress is unharmed but the body burned till the bone - the character chemical burn!!! There were a many corps of woomen and children in Falluji morgue .
So could you say now this is the resault of “hot WP substance”?
Now the questions what was the wearpon which used in Falluji in november of 2004? ( what is the “shake’n’bake” -wearpon?)

As an MFC I used smk a lot closer to FF as the danger area for 81 smk is far less than HE and 40m is more accurate not 150m

May be 81 smk had the dangerouse distance 40m.
But the evidence of US ex-soldier Jeff Engelhart :
"I saw the burned bodies of women and children. Phosphorus explodes and is formed cloud. To all in radius of 150 meter - the end "
So what did he mean? Certainly not 81 smk for “marked the targets”.

The burns are caused by fire that may have been started by WP but as I have shown above a WP burn is not over the entire body.

Its clear you didn’t wath the film about Falluji , the some victims look like the entire skeletons in the dress.

P.S. So where is the evidence of incenriary WP in Groznij?

I know many facts of wrong application of Russian artillery and airforces in Chehnij but it absolutly clear in Groznij was NEVER applied the forbiden by UN wearpon (WP incendiary or something else). If it would , the our fifth column (so called “human right activist” ) would squeal about it for all the world. But no , is silence.
And if you think that the reference in Wiki to the “scientists” at the GlobalSecurity.org is the absolute source you make a mistake. I/m sure those “scientists proved the existence” the Mass-distraction wearpon till the invasion.
Later the airforces used ( very effective ) the vacuum bombs in Chechen mountains.

Cheers.

In common i agree with you Gen.

In which we would probably just have to go back in probably under the UN. Which brings more people to a mess we started.

Who are We? Do you think the US-coalition could back to the Iraq.
I think after the war any US presence in Iraq will be considered as provocation to the continie war.
So absolutly clear , not US forces ( and not any country of US -coalition) will come back to the Iraq under UN. But who could it be?
Mey be China - i/m sure not.
Russia - certainly not ( the chechen problems - is enough already).
Germany or France - not think so.
Who will go into the waspish nest, Gen?

When Saddam was at war with Iran he did have and active nuclear program. Isreal saw this as a threat and bombed the place off the map. Same with Iran

Are you sure the Israel could easy destoy the Iran nuclear objects??
If Iraq’s nuclear centre was in single place then the Iran’s more then handrets places deep underground. It’s clearly Iran learned the lesson of Israel attack to the Iraq.
And i not think the Iran will “easy target” for war agression of Israel ( even with great US assistance)

Cheers.

You are ether misunderstanding or doing an ironman!

If you mix WP with another liquid then it will not burn, it needs oxygen. So mixing it with napalm will have no effect and why would you want to any way? There must be a lot easier ways of setting off napalm.

Your picture shows a decomposing body not one that has been burnt. If it had been burn by WP the material would have burnt. WP is not an acid it burns because it is hot. It is more likely that rats or dog had the flesh not that it was burnt off.

“Shakenbake” comes from a cooking term used by a US food manufacturer. You shake seasoning over a chicken and bake it in the oven. It is a simple expressive term. I have known the term “dolly mix” to be used when calling for a mix of HE and WP on a fire mission. It has nothing to do with a children’s sweet, just an amusing term.


dolly mix - bulk bag
Product code: W58159
Stock status: in stock (31 units available)
Price: £6.99

Read what is written not what you want to see. He clearly said,

“Phosphorus explodes and is formed cloud”.

He does not say a burning cloud, he does not say it burnt to 150m, just it formed a cloud, which is what you want from smk.

WP is only a problem to people if used in confined areas. The bursting charge will spread the WP over an area and can cause fire (look at the hot bit of smoke in the picture).

Through the whole of this you have been trying to read something into it that is not there. WP grenades were used to clear building because they make it hard to breath and force you out (see below with caption). This was not some new dastardly weapon just a stupid reporter trying to make a story out of normal weapon use and using any bodies the were laying around to illustrate his point. As I said earlier what was the cause of death of the bodies? You do not know nor, does the reporter, but it is a good picture, like the one of the child’s teddy in the rubble of a building (after “drop the dead donkey” I laugh every time I see it).

An Okinawan civilian is flushed from a cave into which a smoke grenade had been thrown. Many Okinawans sought the refuge of caves in which they could hide while the tide of battle passed over them. Unfortunately, a large number of caves were sealed when Marines suspected that they were harboring the enemy.

When watching these programs do the following
1 put tinfoild hat on
2 ask yourself who are they trying to get at
3 can you verify any of the facts from an independent reference
4 what is the political gaol

I don’t know who was the ironman, but certainly you like his habits.

White phosphorus is white semi-transparent solid, it is more similar to wax. It is capable to fire, being connected with the atmospheric oxygen. Combustion temperature 900 - 1200 degrees. White phosphorus finds use as the smoke substance, and also as the igniter of napalm and pyro-gel in the incendiary ammunition. Plasticized phosphorus (with the additions of natural rubber - caoutchouc) acquires the capability to stick for vertical surfaces and to burn them. This makes it possible to use it for the equipment of bombs, min, projectiles
Encyclopaedia of wearpon:Incendiary Wearpon. Moscow. 2001

Plasticized WP - is the mixture of usual white phosphorus with the viscous solution of synthetic rubber(Caoutchouc). It is more steady during the storage. During the application it is crushed to the large slowly burning pieces, it is capable to stick of the vertical surfaces and to burn them. Burning phosphorus causes heavy, unhealthy for long to the healing burns.
http://law.pp.ru/lekc.php?rd=vk&what=showdetail&num=13
The incediary wearpon of foreign armies and defence from it.

According to the expert, in the ammunition find the synthetic rubber, well-packed by the pieces of phosphorus.
"when projectile or bomb is torn up, then the pieces of the natural rubber - it burns and it will burn, until phosphorus ends.
Absolutely everything burns, until phosphorus ends. The piece of hite the man - phosphorus finds to itself oxygen and it will burn. And you will remove in no way… this cannot be stopped ", "this weapon does not enter into the list of weapon of mass-destruction. But from the point of view of protection this undoubtedly weapon of mass-destruction. It not is selective ", emphasized the expert
http://www.russianamerica.ru/common/arc/story.php?id_cr=98&id=233478

WHAT’s unintelligibly?
It absolutly clear there are many differents kind of ammunition conteined the WP as compaiund.
Take the clean WP - you get the illumination and thick smoke for targeting the position.
Mixed it with the pieces of robber - you get the danger incendiary wearpon which kiiled everybody in distance of explode.
Use WP warhead for lighting the napalm bomd - you get the 100% guaranteed explosion bomb.

So now you agree it was not simple WP. And certainly it was not chemical acid ( becouse the drees is not damaged). And i cann’t belive it was the wild dogs ( becouse if dogs eat somebody it tear the bag into the piece.)
And it were not the rots becouse i can’t imagine such crazy quantity of rots which could eat handrets of bodies for the some days to the bones.
And if you you right - why such absolutly “decomposing body” were not finded in other cities of Iraq .
may be rots and dogs are only in Falluji?
There’re to much “why” in your point.

“Shakenbake” comes from a cooking term used by a US food manufacturer. You shake seasoning over a chicken and bake it in the oven. It is a simple expressive term. I have known the term “dolly mix” to be used when calling for a mix of HE and WP on a fire mission. It has nothing to do with a children’s sweet, just an amusing term.

OK i just read early the US soldier called the some kind of incendiary wearpon as Shakenbake”

WP is only a problem to people if used in confined areas. The bursting charge will spread the WP over an area and can cause fire (look at the hot bit of smoke in the picture).

Through the whole of this you have been trying to read something into it that is not there. WP grenades were used to clear building because they make it hard to breath and force you out (see below with caption). This was not some new dastardly weapon just a stupid reporter trying to make a story out of normal weapon use and using any bodies the were laying around to illustrate his point. As I said earlier what was the cause of death of the bodies? You do not know nor, does the reporter, but it is a good picture, like the one of the child’s teddy in the rubble of a building (after “drop the dead donkey” I laugh every time I see it).

2nd of foot, i excellent know the official Pentagon’s version of application WP in Falluji.
Certainly you right i don’t know the true. like and you.
But. Considering some facts ( as it was proven by the independent italian director). I not sure he absolutly right, but the Pentagon version is more than strange.

When watching these programs do the following
1 put tinfoild hat on
2 ask yourself who are they trying to get at
3 can you verify any of the facts from an independent reference
4 what is the political gaol

OK, i go to search tinfoild hat. :wink:
Then i will try to verify the facts from an “independent” Pentagon references.
(If you can find any not Pentagon references about Falluji , give it to me please.)
And what is the political goal??

Cheers.

I am sure that Isreal will do anything to protect themselves as the only nuclear country in the region. Even if attacking Iran mulitple times to ensure the destrustion of its nuke program. Im all for Iran having nuke power but a couple of year and they would/could have nukes. Isreal will react in their best interests. By themselves is no problem. The best we can hope is that Iran stands by their word. Iranian power plants great. Iran nuclear…not good.

Funny, but you only complain and post about the US “using it” as if we were the only nation in the world that did.

And, would you prefer that Iraqi insurgents be killed by high explosive over white phosphorus? Is there a “kinder, gentler” way of killing?

And as I have stated, the Russian Air Force has used thermobolic bombs designed to suffocate and burn Chechen insurgents in their deep “hide-out” caves, yet you seem to bristle at any mention of this. I’m also pretty certain that the Russian military uses WP in Chechnya, but it’s not cruel or inhuman when Russians do it, is it Chevan???
Interesting…

And also you comments on Hussein being tried and convicted for killing only 148 Kurds (not Shiites) belies an inability to understand that the prosecution was merely making a tangible murder case as a symbolic representation of Saddam’s overall brutality.

Chevan, I hate the US occupation of Iraq, but it is far from “lawless.” As we speak, US soldiers are being tried for killing prisoners and the rape of a 14-year old girl, and the hideous actions at Abu Ghraib. So, there is in fact a strictly observed application of military law there, and just because you don’t like WP doesn’t make it “illegal.”

OK, your position is “if we will play on rules we lost the war” Is not it?
And we must to fight by any methods? MAy be you right. But why it’s needed to sentense Saddam for killing of 148 shiits (were they a real civilians or not)- this is look cinically for other islam nations, becouse probably US killed more shiits in Falluji just for one day!!!
Indeed i good understand your point. It was absolutly clear in Chechnij for me. The relatives of chechens who was killed during the first war 1994-1996 easy will agree to be shahids later during the second war. And we could avoid the much of terrorist attack, but the disision of Yeltsin command of oligarchs to enter the demoralised Russian army in 1994 in Chechnij not thought so.
I believe in 1994 we had the other ability to #### the chechen bandits ( as example make the problems for Chechens diaspora in Moscow). But those oligarh bas… (by the way with jewish families) prefered to make a money on the war.

Oh look, more conspiratorial anti-Semitic horseshit. :rolleyes:

Well you must ask yourself what realy do US-Coalition in Iraq?
If they do it for oil - this is senseless becouse the world oil price grow up in 3 times (!)since the invasion.
If they do it for democtacy and against Islam world extremism - thet’s OK i’m supported them. But why US decided to strike on Iraq??
As may be you know the oil islam states like Saudy Aravia, Iordan and ets officialy sended the money to the extremists ( they call it the “help for the supporting of Islam”). Using this money extremists has the war agains not-islam peoples including the western civilians). So why so rich and radical islamic states are “friend” of USA but poorest Iraq ( cause of 10 years sanctions) was cynicaly called as “enemy of western civilization”. And CIA outrageously lied about the Iraq’s mass-destruction wearpon till invasion.
I’m supported the J.Bush when he called to fight against islam extremism, but instead of to create realy strong coalition in Europe, US prefered the “particular” interest - to crush the personal american enemy Saddam and take its oil. What’s geniuslly!!
I think this can be good just for Israel - nobody else.
Now after the losing of election in US the “war party” - the Republicans, its seem US will forced to withdraw the troops (early or later) from Iraq And i’m very worry for the perspective in Iraq becouse may be you know :
“What don’t kill us - make us stronger”.
Hence islamic extremists could take the power again and now it will be not Saddam regime - much worst.

Cheers

The US struck Iraq for: A.) Oil B.) Irrational, misapplied fear after 9/11 and the need to punish and lash out at a nation-state other than lowly Afghanistan C.) Bush’s personal vendetta against Saddam for the attempted assassination of his father D.) to enrich politically connected business interests such as Halliburton E.) and finally, the grandiose, horrifically naive’ assertion that one could just instantly remake a flawed nation-state with ethnically and tribally diverse populations into an insta-democracy™…

I noticed that too.

Iraq: Kurds Collect Evidence For More Cases Against Hussein
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/01/a5bf8e58-f53e-4143-83c6-dd20fe7c1a53.html

Saddam Hussein is standing trial for just one of many crimes. Like many Iraqis, the Kurdish Regional Government wants other cases brought against the former dictator – and it is busy gathering the evidence against him.

IRBIL, 24 January 2006 (RFE/RL) – Former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and his seven co-defendants are currently standing trial only for the killing laughter in 1982 of some 140 Shi’ite men and boys from the village of Al-Dujayl, an act of reprisal for an assassination attempt there on the former dictator.

Iraqi prosecutors have often said they have enough evidence against Hussein for at least 12 trials.

“We bribe some people, we share documents with some people, we stay in the deserts and some other parts of the country for three or four weeks to gather as much information as we can.”

But they have chosen to try him first for the Al-Dujayl killings because it is the strongest case and – they say – sure to lead to conviction.

If it does, it remains uncertain whether the court will sentence Saddam to immediate punishment – possibly to death – or delay his punishment in order to conduct other trials.

A Casebook Barely Opened

Many Iraqis are very keen for further trials. Just ask Muhammad Ihsan, minister for human rights for the Kurdish Regional Government and leader of a team that is locating and excavating the mass graves of thousands of Kurdish victims of Hussein’s crackdowns, forced displacements, and reprisals.

Between 1979 and Hussein’s ouster, roughly half a million Kurds were picked up by Iraqi security forces and never returned, Ihsan says.

“We have been searching for missing people for a long, long time, since 1991,” he says. “But we started the active searching process after the liberation of Iraq.”

He believes the families of the Kurdish victims want to know the fate of their loved ones and to bring to justice those who killed them.

So Ihsan, whose ministry is located in Irbil, spends a considerable amount of the year traveling across Iraq. He and a small team of forensic experts regularly drive to areas where they believe mass graves may be located.

He says the team of nine – a figure that includes security experts – locates grave sites by combing through eyewitness accounts, documents, and survivors’ accounts that today may already be decades old.

But trying to exhume a grave site itself can present even greater problems.

“For so many reasons,” he says, locals are frequently unhelpful and uncooperative. One reason is that they do not have enough information. Another is that “they are afraid because most of them were part of that crime.”

Breaking through such barriers is “very hard. We bribe some people, we share documents with some people, we stay in the deserts and some other parts of the country for three or four weeks to gather as much information as we can.”

Ihsan says his team always works undercover, without revealing its connections to the Kurdish Regional Government or that it is collecting criminal evidence.

Still, the exhumation effort has made progress: the bodies of victims have been returned to their home villages in northern Iraq.

“We [have] started returning bodies to Kurdistan,” Ihsan says. “We managed to get 512 bodies [of members of the Barzani clan] that had been killed by Saddam Hussein in 1983.”

These are just some of the over 8,000 male members of the Barzani clan arrested in July 1983 by Saddam’s security force. Seized in the northern province of Irbil, they were then transported to southern Iraq. Nothing has been heard of them since.

Cases Unopened, Wounds Unclosed

This slaughter of the Barzani clan is one of a dozen cases for which prosecutors say they have enough evidence to convict Saddam.

Another case centers on the massive forced displacement of the Kurdish population between February and September 1988 – known as the Anfal (Arabic for “spoils”) campaign – which left tens of thousands of people dead.

Still another case focuses separately on the use of mustard and nerve gas against residents of the Kurdish town of Halabjah in August 1988, during the Anfal campaign.

Other cases include Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait in 1990, the crushing of the Kurdish and Shi’ite rebellions after the 1991 Gulf War, and the killing of political activists over the course of three decades.

Returning bodies is the most painful part of his work, Ihsan says. It re-opens wounds that are decades old and may have partially healed. But he says the families want to have at lease a bone or a piece of cloth that they can bury and create a proper grave for their loved ones.

For others, the wounds have not healed. “The unknown fate [of a loved one] creates big social and economic problems for us,” Ihsan says. “We have some girls who’ve been engaged for more than 23 years. Still they are waiting for their beloved. We have wives still waiting for their husbands. We have daughters still waiting for their fathers to return. We were sure that [the missing] had been killed but these people did not believe it. Returning the bodies to them will put an end to their sad lives [of waiting] and the pain.”

So far, the team has located 284 sites of mass graves of Kurds across Iraq. With time, it hopes to exhume them all.

Ihsan says that he wants to see Hussein finally go on trial for all the cases against him. But he says that, so far, he has received no official word of whether there will be new court proceedings once the Al-Dujayl case is completed.

“We are presenting our evidence to the courts so they have it available,” he says. Beyond that, it is up to the judicial authorities themselves to decide what to do.

killer file

Saddam Hussein
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Kill tally: Approaching two million, including between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqis and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranians killed during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. No conclusive figures for the number of Iraqis killed during the Gulf War, with estimates varying from as few as 1,500 to as many as 200,000. Over 100,000 Kurds killed or “disappeared”. No reliable figures for the number of Iraqi dissidents and Shia Muslims killed during Hussein’s reign, though estimates put the figure between 60,000 and 150,000. (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shias and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Approximately 500,000 Iraqi children dead because of international trade sanctions introduced following the Gulf War.

Murdered/Killed by Saddam Hussein
http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2006/09/murderedkilled-by-saddam-hussein.html

Anonymous left a “comment” on one of my blogs asking:
Do you have any idea how many people Saddam Hussein is alleged to have killed? I recall a statement by Allawi putting it at 1 million.

I’ve not done the kind of systematic collection of democide statistics for Saddam Hussein’s rule that I did for all countries from 1900-1987, although I have paid attention to the statistics that have been mentioned with regard to its human cost. There are two parts to this–the number of deaths he is responsible for in the bloody war he launched against Iran in 1980 and that lasted until 1988, and the deaths caused by his invasion and occupation of Kuwait in 1990. The consensus seems to be that 1,000,000 people overall were killed.

Then there is the question of how many of his own people–Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis, opponents, dissidents, and others he murdered (democide). The figures vary widely, but I believe a conservative estimate would also be 1,000,000.

If there are good solid estimates you know about, please let me know about them and their sources, and I will publish them here.

Hi Nickdfresh , nice to meet you again :slight_smile:
Indeed you couldn’t to know what kind of death is more awful. To be killed by the high explosive or the WP. There is no any “kinder, gentler” way of killing the peoples.
But we are the civilisation and we have the certain rules. And if our rules has the selective action how we will get the example for other low-developed nations?

And as I have stated, the Russian Air Force has used thermobolic bombs designed to suffocate and burn Chechen insurgents in their deep “hide-out” caves, yet you seem to bristle at any mention of this. I’m also pretty certain that the Russian military uses WP in Chechnya, but it’s not cruel or inhuman when Russians do it, is it Chevan???
Interesting…

Really interesting …
You try to compare the civilians in city of Falluji with Chechen in their deep caves.
Who are stay in caves Nick? May be chechen peacefull geologists?
And yes Russian Air force used the vacuum bombs ( not the WP) in mountain.
Indeed Russian “fifth column” worked much more effective till 1999 than Russian army in Chechnj. If juct army would try to use something unhuman or forbiden means in the Chechens cities or the villiges than our “independent” mass-media will be squeal than even the Moon you could hear it.During the First war 1994-1996 terrorists had the such powerfull information support among the “fifth column” that even the attack to the civil hospital in Byddenovsk was presented as the “act of resistence” by the “independen” TV-canals.

And also you comments on Hussein being tried and convicted for killing only 148 Kurds (not Shiites) belies an inability to understand that the prosecution was merely making a tangible murder case as a symbolic representation of Saddam’s overall brutality.

Nickdfresh , Kurds are the shiites.
And i never justified the Saddam. Certainly he deserve the punishment.
But i think it’s the strange that during decades of “Saddam’s overall brutality” were killed less peoples than after the invasion in 2003.

Who did you say i don’t like the WP?
Simple WP is the excellent for the illumination and merceting of the position.
The Plasticized WP ( with caoutchouc) is the very effective the incendiary wearpon like and napalm.
But the application of any inscendiary wearpon was limited by Geneva protocol in cities and viliges.

Oh look, more conspiratorial anti-Semitic horseshit. :rolleyes:

It’s not conspiratorial , just simple coincide :rolleyes::rolleyes:

The US struck Iraq for: A.) Oil B.) Irrational, misapplied fear after 9/11 and the need to punish and lash out at a nation-state other than lowly Afghanistan C.) Bush’s personal vendetta against Saddam for the attempted assassination of his father D.) to enrich politically connected business interests such as Halliburton E.) and finally, the grandiose, horrifically naive’ assertion that one could just instantly remake a flawed nation-state with ethnically and tribally diverse populations into an insta-democracy™…

So what’s US will have after the leaving of Iraq:
A. forget about oil.
B. “Iraqi psyhologic syndrome” ( like Vietnam)
C. Instead of Saddam it will be the worst islam extremist regime.
D. Lost all of the billions (about 400) dollars which were invested to the Iraq.
E. Fully agree with your E- statement.
This will be the single resault of “operation iraq freedom”.

Cheers.

Yet another thread hijacked away from purpose!

Grrr, why dont you start your own Iraq War thread, I’m sure loads of guys will want to contribute to that?

Saddam was a bit naughty I think and although I wouldnt personnaly execute him and turn him into a Martyr, whatever the elected Iraqi Government want to do with him is OK by me. After all, in Saudi they still cut peoples heads off and no one bothers about that, do they!

We have started a bit off topic here…would you all like to see a Iraq war forum such as the others ive made. If your interested please PM me!