Polish Army on the Eastern Front

[Chevan]

@Kovalski

Because the questions were not: “Do you support commies?” - if anybody voted 3 X YES, it didn’t mean at all, that he supported the commies.

But it does not mean the rest who voited not 3 X Yes were agains commies , right?

Other political parties just in order to differ from commies encouraged to vote 1 X YES and 2 X NO (Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe - Polish People’s Political Party), 2 X NO and 1 X Yes, or 3 X NO (Narodowe Siły Zbrojne - National Armed Forces).

So in fact, the result of “at least 20% of voters” voting 3 X YES, doesn’t determine the scale of commies’ support.
Besides the number of real commies who voted 3 X YES, you need to put into these 20% also a some number of people who wanted that three things mentioned in questions to be done, but not truly supporting commies (or even not aware who commies are). That’s all.

But why then in the Wiki this referendum was called as “weak support of commie”?
Wha’t was it from if youu tell the 3 X Yes was not the supporting commie, so what could be the measure of voting agains commie? You say the rest was agains, but wat was criterion?
We have the referendum of 3 abstract questions which could be interpreted free. Neither as supporting of communists nor as the against them. Thus how could we conclide the most of poles voted against commies?

Well, maybe not strongly, but they were against, because they voted in the way proposed by other political groups and parties.

Perhaps, but where is the evidence the majiority was agains commie?

I think that I t would be suitable to give you the total number of Poles repressed by commies, starting from 1939, not only these who were repressed after the end of war.
I need some more time to gather all information, but we can start from here:
According to official polish national census, polish population in 1938 was 24,150,000.

Number of victims of deportations organised by the Soviets in areas taken after 17th of September 1939:
* february 1940 roku: 220-250 thousands
* april 1940 roku: 300-320 thousands
* june 1940 roku: 240-400 thousands
* june 1941 roku: 200-300 thousands
Total: 960.000-1.270.000 victims of deportations.

It doesn’t look like yours 2,5 %… It’s 3,97-5,25 %.
And later we will add all victims of Soviets and commies that were unlucky to meet them after june 1941.

Sorry mate but in other thread we have alr5eady discussed this theme.
We just found the confirmation the next figures in the russian archives which give us Egorka
http://www.memo.ru/HISTORY/POLAcy/G_1.htm

According to archives of the convoy forces, we assembled the list of 208 echelons which in 1940 carried the deported from the areas of West Ukrain and Belorussia into USSR. The total number of these echelons according to the convoy documents was 211. But the information about 3 of the could not be located by us. The name lists were absent, but the number of the people on each echelon was available for almost all of them. This way it was possible to estimate the number of Poles deported in 1940: in February 139.000 - 141.000; in April 61.000; in June - july 75.000 .

The total number of deported was up to 325.000 people.( till 1941)

So where was dissapeared the rest 630 000 - 900 000
My notice:May be you mean not only deported poles to the USSR but all the repressing poles( including sended to the polish prisons and executed). But execution victims were always just little persantage of repressed( no more 3-5%). So was it possible to repressed the rest almost million poles inside the Poland?

Cheers.

[Polar]

But why then in the Wiki this referendum was called as “weak support of commie”?
Wha’t was it from if youu tell the 3 X Yes was not the supporting commie, so what could be the measure of voting agains commie? You say the rest was agains, but wat was criterion?
We have the referendum of 3 abstract questions which could be interpreted free. Neither as supporting of communists nor as the against them. Thus how could we conclide the most of poles voted against commies?

Chevan nowdays for you this 3 question could be abstractiv, but in 1946 in Poland wasn’t. Yes you could interpreted question or answer free, but in 1946 in Poland no. The comunist gouverment give 3 question and give “correct answer” for it. For comunist if you don’t vote “3 x Yes” you was enemy of gouverment(comunist), Poland, democration.
The referendum was test for comunist how many suport they have before election what was in january 1947. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_legislative_election%2C_1947

[Egorka]

@Kovalski

Because the questions were not: “Do you support commies?” - if anybody voted 3 X YES, it didn’t mean at all, that he supported the commies.

Other political parties just in order to differ from commies encouraged to vote 1 X YES and 2 X NO (Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe - Polish People’s Political Party), 2 X NO and 1 X Yes, or 3 X NO (Narodowe Siły Zbrojne - National Armed Forces).

So in fact, the result of “at least 20% of voters” voting 3 X YES, doesn’t determine the scale of commies’ support.
Besides the number of real commies who voted 3 X YES, you need to put into these 20% also a some number of people who wanted that three things mentioned in questions to be done, but not truly supporting commies (or even not aware who commies are). That’s all.

Well, maybe not strongly, but they were against, because they voted in the way proposed by other political groups and parties.

I think that I t would be suitable to give you the total number of Poles repressed by commies, starting from 1939, not only these who were repressed after the end of war.
I need some more time to gather all information, but we can start from here:
According to official polish national census, polish population in 1938 was 24,150,000.

Number of victims of deportations organised by the Soviets in areas taken after 17th of September 1939:
* february 1940 roku: 220-250 thousands
* april 1940 roku: 300-320 thousands
* june 1940 roku: 240-400 thousands
* june 1941 roku: 200-300 thousands
Total: 960.000-1.270.000 victims of deportations.

It doesn’t look like yours 2,5 %… It’s 3,97-5,25 %.
And later we will add all victims of Soviets and commies that were unlucky to meet them after june 1941.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Hi Kovalski!

Chevan reffered to the report in russian at the “Memorial” human right watch group.
In case you can not read russian or feel a bit of distrust, you can find the relevant info provided by the Polish “Karta” peoject in here: http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/raport.pdf

This also has been discussed in this thread: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=96565&postcount=40

Summary of repressed in Poland:

[Kovalski]

@Chevan

But it does not mean the rest who voited not 3 X Yes were agains commies, right?

I know that it might look quite illogical, but if anybody gave at least one answer “NO”, it was treated as a vote against commies.
That’s why I gave you the examples of political parties which postulated different answers. For commies it was the most important to get “3 X YES” answers.

@Chevan

But why then in the Wiki this referendum was called as “weak support of commie”?

I’m sorry but this question shouldn’t be adressed to me.
Honestly speaking, I believe we should read Wiki with some reserve.
The referendum’s results were in fact a disaster to commies. It shown that they couldn’t get support and respect of society in the “official way”.
Of course they needed the referendum to show to the rest of the world, that the polish people fully supported them. And that happend when they announced the falsified results. But by that time everybody in the western world already knew that it is a lost case.

@Chevan

Wha’t was it from if youu tell the 3 X Yes was not the supporting commie, so what could be the measure of voting agains commie? You say the rest was agains, but wat was criterion?
We have the referendum of 3 abstract questions which could be interpreted free. Neither as supporting of communists nor as the against them. Thus how could we conclide the most of poles voted against commies?

Commies run a huge propaganda campaign. “3 X YES” was their slogan repeated everywhere on every occasion. They were the ones who claimed that if anybody answered even a single “NO”, he was considered as “suspicious character”, or even a traitor.
I agree that some people voted this way and intentionally gave their support to the commies.
But the questions were not tied with communist ideology, so some people (I believe that a minority) could vote 3 X YES, when they were not truly supporting the commies.

@Chevan

Perhaps, but where is the evidence the majiority was agains commie?

Well, the fact of falsification of results is constitute sufficient proof of scale of opposition.

@Chevan

Sorry mate but in other thread we have alr5eady discussed this theme.
We just found the confirmation the next figures in the russian archives which give us Egorka
http://www.memo.ru/HISTORY/POLAcy/G_1.htm

Oops, I missed that thread…

@Chevan

So where was dissapeared the rest 630 000 - 900 000
My notice:May be you mean not only deported poles to the USSR but all the repressing poles( including sended to the polish prisons and executed). But execution victims were always just little persantage of repressed( no more 3-5%). So was it possible to repressed the rest almost million poles inside the Poland?

Chevan, I must admit I’m not a historian and I have some problems with providing the exact and confirmed data. I shall ask one of my professor from Torun University to help - but I’m afraid that they will find no time to answer me

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

[Chevan]

@Polar

In my opinion the answer about yours question how many polish was strongly against communism is in third question referendum (Do you want to adopt the Oder-Neisse line (comprising the Oder River and the Nysa River) as the western border of Poland?) Peoples what answer no on this question don’t accept even positive aspects of communism in Poland. This was 33 % population of Poland

Oh thanks Polar for you’ve mention it.
So the 3-question was shortly speaking - “Do you agree the poland take in the lands of Eastern Prussia”. Am i right?

[Kovalski]

@Chevan

Oh thanks Polar for you’ve mention it.
So the 3-question was shortly speaking - “Do you agree the poland take in the lands of Eastern Prussia”. Am i right?

Not exactly.
It was understood this way: “Do you agree that Poland should take the Silesia and maintain its western borders on Odra and Nysa Luzycka rivers.”
There was nothing about Eastern Prussia, nor eastern areas of pre-war Poland (taken by the Soviets).

[Chevan]

@Kovalski

Not exactly.
It was understood this way: “Do you agree that Poland should take the Silesia and maintain its western borders on Odra and Nysa Luzycka rivers.”

Yes sorry my typoo mate Silesia

from Wiki
Under the terms of the agreements at the Yalta Conference and the Potsdam Agreement, both in 1945, German Silesia east of the rivers Oder and Lusatian Neisse Rivers was transferred to Poland (see Oder-Neisse line).

But the part of Eastern Prussia was also taken by the Poland after WW2 (now the Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia

There was nothing about Eastern Prussia, nor eastern areas of pre-war Poland (taken by the Soviets).

What do you mean as “pre-war eastern areas of Poland”
The lands of Belorussia and Ukrain which was captured by poles after 1920

[Polar]

Chevan when was created Belorussia and Ukrain ?

[Kovalski]

@Chevan

But the part of Eastern Prussia was also taken by the Poland after WW2 (now the Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia

Yes, it was taken by Poland after WW2.
But wasn’t mentioned in the referendum.

@Chevan

What do you mean as “pre-war eastern areas of Poland”
The lands of Belorussia and Ukrain which was captured by poles after 1920

Chevan, don’t provoke a fight here
As far as I remember, we had agreed not to discuss and judge the far polish-russian history.
We can call these lands: “Lands which Russia failed to capture in 1920-21 war against Poland” or “Lands which Russia gave to Poland according to Riga Treaty signed in 1921”.

Is that ok for you, my russian friend?

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

[Egorka]

Guys! We have a separate thread about Eastern polish territories in the General forum. Lets talk there.

[Chevan]

@Kovalski

Yes, it was taken by Poland after WW2.
But wasn’t mentioned in the referendum.

So why the referendum means the lands of Silesia but not the East Prussia?
May be the East Prussia was considered as polish on definition

Chevan, don’t provoke a fight here

Who do provoke? Am i ?

As far as I remember, we had agreed not to discuss and judge the far polish-russian history.
We can call these lands: “Lands which Russia failed to capture in 1920-21 war against Poland” or “Lands which Russia gave to Poland according to Riga Treaty signed in 1921”.

Well you right mate.
But according the contemporary political correctness the much right way ( at least for the peoples who lives in thos territories) to call this lands as the “Lands of Belorussia and Ukraine which were occuped by the Russian imperia, Poland and USSR in different periods of its history for a long time ago”. Right

Is that ok for you, my russian friend?

As you wish mate

Cheers.

[Chevan]

@Polar

Chevan when was created Belorussia and Ukrain ?

And what is your point dear Polar at this question?

[Polar]

I ask because I found few date create Belorussia and Ukrain.
For Belorussia for example I found March 25 1918 or January 1 1919. I don’t know wich is correct. This same problem is wich Ukrain date.

Did you heard about that isn’t culturally answer question for question

[Polar]

@Egorka

Guys! We have a separate thread about Eastern polish territories in the General forum. Lets talk there.

Yes Egorka you have right.
All this topic is huge off-top

[Egorka]

@Polar

Yes Egorka you have right.
All this topic is huge off-top

Yes, I ment this thread: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=95054#post95054

[Chevan]

@Polar

I ask because I found few date create Belorussia and Ukrain.
For Belorussia for example I found March 25 1918 or January 1 1919.

That’s right Polar 24 March of 1918 the Belorussian peoples congress declared the creation of independent Belorussia ( firstly in the history but not at all).
The second “birth” of independent Belorussia was 25 aug of 1991.
The Ukraine was birthed 25 january of 1919

http://www.krugosvet.ru/articles/63/1006339/1006339a7.htm#1006339-L-154
On 20 November 1917 in Kiev was proclaimed Ukrainian People Republic, on 12 December 1917 in Kharkov - Ukrainian Soviet Republic, and on 1 November 1918 in L’vov - West Ukrainian People republic. On 22 January 1919 people republics were combined

I don’t know wich is correct. This same problem is wich Ukrain date.

Did you heard about that isn’t culturally answer question for question

Oh common Polar ,we have not the secular negorations in here;)
BTW why did you ask this question ?

[Polar]

on left
Gen. ZYGMUNT HENRYK BERLING (1896-1980)
Born in Southern Poland in Limanowa near Krakow. In September 1914 he joined Polish Legions under Pilsudski initially in 2nd regiment later transferred to 4th regiment. He was platoon commander and later became a company commander. From May 1918 till November 1918 he was in Austro-Hungarian army. In November 1918 he joined Polish army. During Polish-Bolshevik war he was commander of march company and later battalion in defense of Lwow. He was awarded Silver cross of Virtuti Militari (highest Polish military award) for bravery. In 1920 he was promoted to captain and in 1923 to major. During Campaign of 1939 he remained inactive in his house in Wilno. After the city was overrun by Soviets he was arrested by NKVD. During his imprisonment he offered his services to Soviets and probably saved his life. He was later moved to special camp for Polish officers who were sympathetic for communist cause. In 1941 after German invasion of Soviet Union and after signing Polish-Soviet treaty Berling was attached to Gen. Anders HQ. After the evacuation of Polish Army to Iran he remained in Soviet Union (technically he was a deserter) In 1943 he volunteered to organize 1st Polish infantry division “Tadeusz Kosciuszko” in Soviet Union. Later the division was expanded to Corps and then to Army size. In 1944 he entered Lublin with Communist Polish Army. On 22 July 1944 he became second in charge of Polish Army. He was relieved of his command after unsuccessful attempt to cross Wisla River to help Warsaw Uprassing. Due to political situation all attempts by LWP were doomed from the start. Stalin had no intention of helping “London Poles” liberating Warsaw.
on right
Gen. Karol Swierczewski (1897-1947)
1939 - 1941 Instructor at Frunze Military Academy
1941 General Officer Commanding 248th Rifle Division
1941 - 1942 Commanding Officer 43 Reserve Rifle Brigade
1942 - 1943 Commandant of Rifle Officers School
1943 Transferred from the Red Army to LWP
1944 Deputy General Officer Commanding I Corps Polish People’s Army
1944 Deputy General Officer Commanding Polish People’s Army
1944 - 1945 General Officer Commanding 2nd Polish People’s Army
1945 Chief Inspector of Rearmament
1945 General Officer Commanding III Military Area
1946 - 1947 Vice-Minister of Defence
1947 Killed by Ukrainian nationalist from UPA in Baligrod
He was fight in Ciwil Spanish War as comandant Internacional Brigades. He was prototype a General Golz from book Ernest Hemingway
“For Whom the Bell Tolls”

[Chevan]

Few more photos of the 1 Polish army.For our polish comrides;)

[vova_shtagel]

btw this is my grand grand grandpa my family were searching for him we didnt know what happened to him please some one give us some information about shtagel. like were was he born his kids family etc. please every important.

[Kovalski]

Thanks Chevan

Vova, check your PM.