Polish Army on the Eastern Front

It was crucial. It was a large organized Army while Ukrainians only started forming their national units from scratch, the same was true of the Soviets. You “accidentally” forgot to mention hundreds of military advisors from France and Britain sent by their governments to assist Poles against Ukrainians and the Soviets.

Thats a steaming pile of horse dung mate, dont say “gave” Poland paid a healthy sum for every rifle, tank or airplane, these were not donations, they were bought, by money, polish money, i’m familiar with Roszkowski and since so are you then there wouldnt be any argument.

Nothing of the sort. Poland was given all that ammunition, weapon, tanks, planes without paying for them. Poland had been part of Russia, Austria and Germany by the WWI, besides it suffered from the WWI. It had no money to pay even for 1/20 of the Western supplies.

Poland bought equipment, there was very little charity involved so i fail to see your point, allies did not help they just did business with us.

I rest my case, we won our sovereignty by ourselves, sure we bought weapons but we paid money and good money too so its hardly help, we got our boys from blue army across Germany but they were not a huge force and we still had to buy the weapons they carried so where’s that allied help ?

Nope they are definitely BOUGHT from Entente.

Poland was a bankrupt then. What business and purchases are you talking about?

Covenanter:
The blue army numbered 80-90 thousand troops, it helped a lot that it was there but it was not crucial, the polish army at the time reached a milion total troops, are you saying that because allies provided roughly a tenth of our armed forces we survived ?

That is what they say about Lend-Lease to USSR. Brace yourself. :slight_smile:

:mrgreen:

Its amazing how much uneducated bullcrap you get in a historical forum, lets rip that new history of attempt to write apart.

In 1919 Poland had an army of 540 thousands men, these were fully equipped and outfitted, there was no war with the Soviets at the time and Poland received no help, no military advisors nothing, yet the “bankrupt” Poland managed to erect over half a milion active troops.

In the bullshit of a post of yours you do not mention that Poland was left with entire factories, arsenals, manufactures, yes it was ruined, no it was not even close to bankrupt.

The first engangement and any wind of war happened on 14 Feb 1919 when Poland already had a massive fully equipped army, the first shipments of equipment were ‘ordered’ prior to battle of Warsaw.

The FT-17 at Dyneburg were purchased for a hefty price and transported to Gdańsk where a polish garrison ensured they’d be allowed passage, Italy never commited a single weapon to Poland and the carbines you came up with were being used by the austro-hungrarian army and inherited by its polish elements and some captured arsenals in and around Kraków.

There is no known or documented account of military advisors sent to Poland during the war of 1920.

Actually 90% of the equipment Poland already had was inherited from the three partitioning nations which undermines your version of massive help, Poland did purchase a few tanks and planes since it had a running infrastructure, in fact it was in better shape at that time then for example Russia or Germany but the amount of equipment bought was minuscule since we already captured what we needed from our partitioners, next please.

The region of Warsaw was one of the most industrialized regions in the Russian Empire, the region of Poznan was one of the wealthier in Prussia, Poland was far from bankrupcy since it erected half a milion troops without any support and its economy was running pretty well ( for a post WW1 country that is ).

Returning to the blue army.

The Blue Army added exactly 68 000 men to the existing 690 thousands, 40 FT-17 tanks to the already purchased 95.

Approximately 50 airplanes of various types used mostly for observation.

They did help but were neither crucial nor instrumental in victories since despite being part of the core of the military the main victories of the war came from the employment of indigenous cavalry mixed with tanks and armored cars, the main combat of the Blue Army was under Bzura when the war was already won.

There we go about Poland receiving “massive” help.

General mod warning guys - heated debate is fine, name-calling is not. If it continues I’ll lock this thread for 24 hours to let things cool down a bit. This applies to ALL of you.

Furthermore, if you think someone is incorrect for any reason, post evidence to show it. Named books are preferable, weblinks are fine too. Merely thumbing your nose at someone and saying they are wrong is NOT an acceptable debating technique.

The problem with such warnings is that they’re in the same category as punishing the whole platoon for the deficiencies of one or two members. It might have some utility in the army but it doesn’t help here where we’re not trying to build a cohesive group.

The problem is that Covenanter has a very aggressive style to his one-eyed Polish view of events and inflames things by it. He’s not far off a troll at times. He also makes assertions and invites disputation but carefully avoids responding when confronted with disagreeable facts. #37 here http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6600&page=3 and the posts to which it refers illustrate all these aspects.

Rather than issuing a general warning to all those who respond to such inflammatory and aggressive posts by Covenanter, and who generally respond with more restraint than he’s shown in the face of his gratuitous insults and provocation, it might be more apposite and effective to tell him to tone it down.

Yeah, um. Statements like this ain’t happening anymore.

Firstly, perhaps I am biased and all that since I’ve posted in this thread -but- Kato and I are no friends, and this fact can easily be researched by the dozens of confrontational posts traded here between one-another. And the same goes with Kato and the rest of the mod staff as well.

The objection here is that Kato actually offered a source for his post. I am no expert --perhaps not even a novice-- on the post-WWI formation of the new nation-states of Europe. But his post is far from outlandish or controversial, and furthermore, you have failed to offer a single web link, book source, or news article to support your views and rely instead on laymen myths that are politically expedient. I believe that you have an either extremely partisan “truth-is-the-first-casualty-of-warfare” Polish nationalist mentality, or you’re just a troll trying to piss people off.

Either way, you will not denounce others here while making blatantly SOPHIST arguments that ignore facts you find inconvienient and distort ones that help you build your prosecutorial case of “Poland as martyr.”

BTW, I know that I am standing in a line hear.:smiley:

But I would like to see you respond to my post, specifically:

–If the French Army was such a mighty juggernaut of men, tanks, and artillery, that could have gashed Germany in the Saar Offensive – then why did they lose to the Germans in six weeks. While there was significant help from the professional British Army as well?

–What would have been the value of French actions in conducting an ad hoc offensive the Saar to Poland? As their situation was hopeless, and the the Soviets invaded, the same day, and even without the Red Army, the Germans had largely broken the strategic defense of Poland by Sept. 17…

I completely agree that the French army was incapable of fighting on equal terms however the entire point of the discussion is that in 1939 the French forces faced what amounted to militias and reserves and was nothing like the French blitz they faced in 1940.

What would be the value of the offensive ? An instant and immidiate conquest of Germany with no opposition offered, no russian offensive meant that Poland could actually receive the british arms which were en route and mobilize the rest of its divisions in the romanian triangle.

Also you forget a crucial and common fact, Germans did not have winter equipment nor ammunition for more than three more weeks of warfare by 17 september which means that come winter german resistance would crumple.

By 17 of September Poland retained fighting capability and majority of its army and equipment which coincidentally became compressed enough to offer stiff resistance, read up on german advances around Warsaw, they were all repelled with heavy german casualities, unlike French or Czech Poles were also resolute to fight to the last man if there was a possibility of victory so there was no risk of French losing their allies.

Then again the offensive would give time for brits to deploy in France and/or in Poland and provide air/navy support which would further tip the scales in the allied favour.

There is no end to the gains that could be had if the allies did assault Germany, in fact thanks to polish stiff resistance this was the only time during entire WW2 when Germany could be defeated with ease and within a few months, the conformism and cowardice of the western allies blew it.

I have to ask sir an, are you aware that Poland was already old european power by the time your people lived in log cabins and wiped with their hands ?

Poland was never formed a new nation state merely a revival of the old one

Which inconveniet facts did i ignore, the first selling out by France and England, the second selling out by US, the fact that my people lost a fifth of their nation only to be sold into barbaric russian slavery OR the fact that we were the first to openly and consequently oppose Hitler when everyone else sought compromise, often at our expense.

Make no mistake, Poland was a martyr and an idiot of this war, i repeat the sentence that started this, we should have become Nazi and fight alongside Germany since quite frankly neither allies nor the soviets were worth our blood and sacrifices, the first sold us the latter enslaved us.

Here’s a little insight on the ammunition part.
http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/GermAmmoPoland.html
For most ammunition types germany didn’t even deplete 10% of its stocks from sept 1st to crush poland. Guess it remains your mystery how it would only have lastet three more weeks.

Did not have winter equipment, are you kidding? Of course the wehrmacht had winter clothing. What kind of special winter equipment do you think is necessary around here?

Perhaps you failed to understand that my post wasn’t a debate as a poster in this thread, it was a warning and a mod regarding your lack of respect for others…

Kato has provided external sources and text, you’ve provided none, that is a statement of fact. Anymore posts such as this will be construed as just trolling, at which point you will have begun to sadly outlive your usefulness to this board…

The source site is non-existant, and if Wehrmacht had winter eq where did it go in Russia ?

On what ? You can get numbers for polish blue army and total army strength even on wikipedia i assumed its basic knowledge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Army

Didnt see your country of origin i’m sorry Billy Yank i’ll provide sources, in capital letters, there will also be a colored map so you’d know where Poland is.

The winter in russia is not even remotely comparable to our winter here in western europe and if you’d actually know anything about the topics you’re foolishly talking about you’d know the wehrmacht issued winter clothing more than sufficient for the winter here as standard equipment to every soldier, would be stupid not to, given the fact that this happens once a year. The wehrmacht had difficulties with the logistics cause they were surprised by the early snow and of course the clothes were simply unsuited for siberian blizzards and mins 50 degrees, but that’s another story.

The source of the referenced site is a book, the scanned pictures are gone but the link is self explanatory to people capable of reading.
http://www.amazon.com/Waffen-Geheimwaffen-deutschen-Heeres-1933/dp/3763759158/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206039957&sr=8-8

And btw, the fact that you mix up hearsay stories from two different wars (not enough ammunition for the winter is a ww1 story) tells me pretty much all I need to know about your knowledge of history.

Um, no. You yourself posted that there were 20 divisions of the regular Wehrmacht in the sector, though admittedly ones that were of lessor quality. The “reserve” divisions were a further 11 quickly raised. Granted, they were of dubious quality. But they still ere defensively fighting for their homeland, then there were the six-divisions worth of border guards men that would have retreated to the Siegfried line…

[i]from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal[i]

Both the pre-war reports of the Polish intelligence and the post-war testimonies of German generals (most notably of Wilhelm Keitel and Alfred Jodl) reported that there was an equivalent of less than 20 divisions facing France in 1939, as compared to roughly 90 French divisions. On the other hand, German orders of battle show 33 infantry divisions, plus eleven newly raised infantry divisions, plus the equivalent of six border guard divisions, all under command of Army Group C. Similarly, most of the Luftwaffe and all armoured units were then in Poland while the Siegfried Line was severely under-manned and far from completed. Knowing all of the above, the Polish commanders expected that the French offensive would quickly break the German lines and force the OKW to withdraw a large part of its forces fighting on Polish soil back to German western frontier. This would force Germany to fight a costly two-front war.

The French assault was to be carried out by roughly 40 divisions, including one armoured division, three mechanized divisions, 78 artillery regiments and 40 tank battalions. All the necessary forces were mobilised in the first week of September. On September 12, the Anglo-French Supreme War Council gathered for the first time at Abbeville in France. It was decided that all offensive actions were to be halted immediately. By then, the French divisions have advanced approximately eight kilometres into Germany on a 24 kilometres long strip of the frontier in the Saarland area. Maurice Gamelin ordered his troops to stop not closer than 1 kilometre from the German positions along the Siegfried Line. Poland was not notified of this decision. Instead, Gamelin informed marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły that half of his divisions are in contact with the enemy, and that French advances have forced the Wehrmacht to withdraw at least six divisions from Poland. The following day, the commander of the French Military Mission to Poland, General Louis Faury, informed the Polish Chief of Staff, General Wacław Stachiewicz, that the planned major offensive on the western front had to be postponed from September 17 to September 20. At the same time, French divisions were ordered to retreat to their barracks along the Maginot Line. The Phony war started. The French remained in control of a pocket in the Saarland. As a symbolic gesture, the 1st Polish Grenadier Division later raised in the French Army was stationed to occupy this German territory.

The Allied attitude towards Poland in 1939 has been a subject of an ongoing dispute among historians ever since. Some historians argue that if only France had pursued the offensive agreed on in the treaties, it would have definitely been able to break through the unfinished Siegfried Line and force Germany to fight a costly two-front war that it was in no position to win. At the same time, others argue that France and Britain had promised more than they would deliver — especially when confronted with the option to declare war on the Soviet Union for violating Poland’s territory on September 17, 1939 the way they had on Germany on September 3, 1939 (though in fact the pledge would not have obliged France and Great Britain to declare war on the Soviet Union due to the actual wording of the pact that specifically named Germany as the potential aggressor) — and that the French army was superior to the Wehrmacht in numbers only. It lacked the offensive doctrines, mobilization schemes, and offensive spirit necessary to attack Germany. Also, while the bulk of Luftwaffe was engaged in Poland, neither the French airforce nor the British Royal Air Force engaged in any operations against Germany beyond leaflet droppings and the bombing of German naval bases.

It is unlikely, given Soviet strategic doctrine of opportunistic war that they would have carried on with invasion of Poland fulfilling their promises given to Germans.[citation needed] Though Germans asked Russians to invade Poland on September 3 no such action took place till September 17, 1939. This is partly because the Soviet Union waited for a proof of Poland’s collapse as well as lack of military involvement on the part of the Allies[citation needed].

So, in effect, it would have been 40 divisions against almost 40 divisions or so…

What would be the value of the offensive ? An instant and immidiate conquest of Germany with no opposition offered, no russian offensive meant that Poland could actually receive the british arms which were en route and mobilize the rest of its divisions in the romanian triangle.

Completely and utterly impossible according to any historians I have read and again you deny basic facts. Namely nobody believes a French Army of largely mobilized reservists, which out any sort of real offensive plan, were going to “conquer Germany.” A most was the speculation of a “two front war” would wear down the Third Reich and perhaps have put France in a better position for its own battle with Germany.

But the French were thinking of WWI and their lower birth rate (half of Germany’s). The French Army almost broke in 1914 because it had launched a premature offensive into the Saar region and had to retreat wholesale to avoid annihilation after suffering heavy casualties. They were also thinking in terms of winning in 1918 with a slow, steady combined arms approach that helped to break the back of the depleted German Army. The French armies dispersed most of their armor, and moved in terms of calculated infantry foot speeds…

The French doctrine of “Methodical Battle” moved very slowly in a localized action that prevented them from exploiting any large opportunities of a battle of maneuver or breakthrough. By the time the got anywhere, and I am not arguing they wouldn’t have nor that they shouldn’t have tried, it wouldn’t have been far enough and the Germans would have counterattacked…

Also you forget a crucial and common fact, Germans did not have winter equipment nor ammunition for more than three more weeks of warfare by 17 september which means that come winter german resistance would crumple.

Winter equipment? Please! And the French really were not prepared to fight a long war either, as they had been caught off guard by the attack on Poland. They also didn’t have a huge stockpile and were not even fully mobilized by the middle of September.

And the French offensive would have more likely run out of steam, and they would have been just as hypothetically vulnerable to massed panzers and combined arm Blitz warfare as they were in the Spring of 1940…

We could argue that they may have come out better ultimately as they might have had more time to adapt to the vastly quicker pace of German warfare, but then, that would mean the French screwed themselves as much as they did Poland ultimately. wouldn’t it?

By 17 of September Poland retained fighting capability and majority of its army and equipment which coincidentally became compressed enough to offer stiff resistance, read up on german advances around Warsaw, they were all repelled with heavy german casualities, unlike French or Czech Poles were also resolute to fight to the last man if there was a possibility of victory so there was no risk of French losing their allies.

No they didn’t! the Polish army was fragmenting and was in a full headlong retreat to a final defense line, and even that was ruined by the speed of the panzers…

Yes, they inflicted casualties on the Germans, but they were fighting a final stand at that point with no air force, armor, and little way of stopping German tanks…

And there were French that were also “resolute” to fighting to the last in the Norman hedgerows much as the Germans would against the Allies four years later, ironically after Paris had fallen and it was know that saving continental France was impossible…

The Polish courage was even more in vain as France’s was, as the French could have fought from their colonies after the downfall. They didn’t…

Then again the offensive would give time for brits to deploy in France and/or in Poland and provide air/navy support which would further tip the scales in the allied favour.

There is no end to the gains that could be had if the allies did assault Germany,

Complete hindsight and a big bag of hypothetical…

The French armies only hope was to fight a battle of defensive attrition, then to move over to the mobile offensive. Gamelin, for all his faults, knew that the French army could not fight a mobile battle with the Wehrmacht. That’s why they waited until they were to have overwhelming advantage by mid-1941 against a blockaded Germany, and even then, the French and BEF would have suffered at least a few defeats until the adjusted their tactical war-fighting doctrines on armor and combined arms warfare…

in fact thanks to polish stiff resistance this was the only time during entire WW2 when Germany could be defeated with ease and within a few months, the conformism and cowardice of the western allies blew it.

:rolleyes:

Polish courage was in vain against the Blitz, and so was everyone elses, until they learned how to contain it and neutralize the German armor and air support…

Um, there’s a huge difference in the sort of Winter equipment needed in Germany and Russia…

And perhaps you can compare the stocks of French winter equipment against the German ones?

I said nothing about the Polish “Blue” Army!

Look, I AM NOT DEBATING THIS WITH YOU! Kato is. I am not even taking his side in the debate…

I am talking HOW you are debating, by presenting your opinion as just fact and ignoring facts that you cannot refute nor substantiate after being called on them, then just resorting to insulting others which is called trolling. And this has characterized your responses since you’ve started here…

What word do you not understand about that? Seek further clarification via PM if you still do not get it…

I really hope this post clears things up! Because if it doesn’t, we’re going to have problems…

I gave everyone a warning specifically to avoid insulting language yesterday. Less than 24 hours afterwards you’re back at it, while everyone else has taken the hint and remained civil.

Consider this a formal warning. Behaviour like that is NOT tolerated, and if you continue like this you’ll be given the boot in short order.