Should the atomic bombs have been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

World War II General WWII Discussion
#781

The irony of situation is- the Wiki fully quotes to Glantz , but Glantz quotes to exclusively the Soviet datas:)

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz3/glantz3.asp#ch6
The Soviets assert that this force contained 1,155 tanks, 5,360 guns, and 1,800 aircraft.

The Glatz’s source is the Soviet “Kampaniia sovetakikh vooruzhennikh sit no dal’nem vostoke v 1945”.
BTW he NOWHERE wrote that sizable portion of Japanese armor were armoured cars
He simply had no any datas except Soviets.
Although he assumed ( very correct IMO)- that Soviet source claime ONLY 369 cuptured Japane tanks.http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz3/glantz3.asp#c3-4
This fact , however means nothing.

Better than nothing --I guess…But no match for the T-34. Even Sherman crews in the US Marines/Army had to use HE ammo against Japanese tanks because their AP passed right through the armor without doing too much damage on indirect hits…

Sure it wasn’t match , but as you remember the T-34 ( as well the Sherman) wasn’t match for Tiger2 and Panther , but this fact don’t mean that Soviet tankers couldn’t do anything agains them, right.And Germans 88-mm AP passed though very well from certain distance.

But they weren’t as “suicidal” in Manchuria. It wasn’t their home island, and the Emperor directed them to surrender…

Some of them were VERY SUICIDAL. For instance , as Glatz wrote in Southerm Manchurian fotrified area the Japane offered serious resistence.

In terms of leadership, equipment, and manpower, the Kwantung Army of 1945 certainly was not the same army as it was in 1941, but it was also not so ineffective as some analysts have claimed. In many instances, the marginal replacements of 1945 performed well on the battlefield, whenever they were permitted to fight. Even in reduced state, Japanese divisions outmanned their Soviet equivalents and fought well. Thus, the Japanese 80th Independent Mixed Brigade and the 119th Infantry Division did a remarkable job at Hailar and on the road through the Grand Khingan Mountains to Pokotu. The 135th Independent Mixed Brigade and the 123d Infantry Division acquitted themselves well at Aihun and Sunwu. Many border garrisons, holed up in fortified regions against overwhelming numbers, performed heroic defenses and earned the respect of their adversaries, who perhaps thought of similar Soviet sacrifices at Brest and Sevastopol. The Soviets viewed with awe the Japanese “death units,” which threw their explosive-laden bodies at Soviet tanks.2 In fact, where Japanese forces stood and fought under competent leadership, they did a credible job and gave the Soviets the opposition they had expected. In reality, it was the higher echelon leadership of the Kwantung Army who engineered the army’s overall mediocre performance

So as you see , the some of Japs were “suicidal” very well in Manchuria.

Except the entire Japanese population was displaced…And numerous Japanese POWs disappeared into the bowls of the Soviet Union…

Yes all of rest foreign Japane population have been deported back to the Japane islands.
It was a special agreement of Potsdam conference, where it was noticed- the Japanes shall leave all the territories, they invaded during the war.( including Korea, Taiwan and of course Sakhalin and Kurils).
Don’t need to remind you again - all the soviet steps were in STRONG co-ordination with Allies.
BTW do you seriously think that 50 000 of japane POWs perished for 4 years in Syberia from more then 600 000 of total is the “numerous”?
Come on, in Tokio just for one day perished more in 13 march 1945.

Not unless suicide and group think are forms of ethnic cleansing…

But they probably were FORCED to it?
The Human Right activists can formulate it so:)

Did Americans kill some Japanese POWs. Absolutely they did, as the Japanese did to any Americans that fell into their hands at that point.

But if to kill the wounded Japs - nobody will even count them as POWs , right?
How can you define the killing of wounded enemy soldiers?In fact Americans did it very often ( i do understand them , the “wounded” japs somethims were very danger, soviet veterans of “August storm” remember it).
But though- how many wounded Japanes soldiers have been killed , who wasn’t suicidal and did not wish to blow up themself?
Thousands or tens of thousands?

Um, the Philippines are an island nation in the Pacific. What would they have to do with the Kurils?

And some of Kurils ilsland also has OWN nation - Ainu, the islands’ original inhabitants.
But Japs suppressed them very well with their asian cruelty.So “reacquiration” of Phillipines pretty simular to Kurilas one:)

#782

On Sunday morning I was shook out of my bed by what I thought was an Atomic Explosion. If you have read the Toronto News, you will see the Mushroom cloud picture(see attached) which I experienced first hand due to propane explosion. At first I thought I was going to get nuked when I saw the Mushroom cloud with my own eyes. I live only half a mile from the disaster so I was pretty shook up. Thank god I am ok and able to report that I actually thought it was Hiroshima all over again in Toronto…Phew!images.jpg

#783

I have a better Idea about the atomic bombing back then!!! Why not show off the US’s Atomic Bombs in a public display. I mean drop leaflets that the bombs gona hit something like a emtpy, rural area in Japan so the japs could flee and far from a harm could watch the mushroom clouds. Or send in a huge platoon of the most experienced soldiers and have them assisinate all the war advocates in the Jap military goverment and at the same time cause a rebellion amongst the population.

#784

This was discussed at the time (IIRC the choice would have been an island in Tokyo bay), and dismissed as it was felt it would not be convincing enough. Given that it took two atomic bombings of cities plus a massive attack by the Red Army to convince Japan to surrender, it would appear that this decision was correct. It should be noted here that the Japanese originally claimed that the Hiroshima bomb was twenty tonnes, then upped this to two hundred tonnes. In the circumstances, how many would be convinced by such a demonstration?

Sorry, this is just moronic. For starters, how exactly are these soldiers going to get close enough to conduct these assassinations without being caught? How are they even going to know who to assassinate? How on earth are they going to start a rebellion among a fanatically loyal population whose language they don’t speak?

#785

Send in Japanese Americans?

#786

Not likely, as they weren’t trusted to fight against Japan at the time.

#787

There must have been some trusted Japanese Americans that could have gotten the job done?

#788

Which misses the entire point. Assassination was an accepted political tool in Japan at the time - how the hell would any random Americans (speaking Japanese and looking right or not) get close enough to carry out a successful assassination? Furthermore, Japanese internal politics was poorly understood at the time - how the hell would they know for sure who was on the side of war and who on the side of peace? Even if they knew that, what would the effect be on the remaining politicians? It’s a really bad, half baked idea that you’re trying to rescue. Don’t bother.

#789

I wasn’t trying to rescue the idea, I was simply questioning the idea out of respect. I do however see your point and I think you may be right.Thank you for steering me onto the right path

#790

Why can’t they dropped the bomb into the heavy industrial areas or where areas civilians are much lesser. Before the bombs are dropped, the US even broadcasted urging the Japs to stay away from industrial zone and to go to non-military zone giving illusions as to where they will target. Then they bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

They said only 2 to 3 bombs are available then and so the pilots then must choose a target?? We believe that?

#791

This assumes that industrial zones were discrete areas which didn’t have people working in them and were far away from dwellings and other concentrations of people, such as transport and shops. They weren’t.

The pilots didn’t choose the targets. The targets were the result of careful planning by others who selected them. For example

  1. Status of Targets

A. Dr. Stearns described the work he had done on target selection. He has surveyed possible targets possessing the following qualification: (1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles in diameter, (2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by next August. Dr. Stearns had a list of five targets which the Air Force would be willing to reserve for our use unless unforeseen circumstances arise. These targets are:

(1) Kyoto - This target is an urban industrial area with a population of 1,000,000. It is the former capital of Japan and many people and industries are now being moved there as other areas are being destroyed. From the psychological point of view there is the advantage that Kyoto is an intellectual center for Japan and the people there are more apt to appreciate the significance of such a weapon as the gadget. (Classified as an AA Target)
(2) Hiroshima - This is an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focussing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target. (Classified as an AA Target)
(3) Yokohama - This target is an important urban industrial area which has so far been untouched. Industrial activities include aircraft manufacture, machine tools, docks, electrical equipment and oil refineries. As the damage to Tokyo has increased additional industries have moved to Yokohama. It has the disadvantage of the most important target areas being separated by a large body of water and of being in the heaviest anti-aircraft concentration in Japan. For us it has the advantage as an alternate target for use in case of bad weather of being rather far removed from the other targets considered. (Classified as an A Target)
(4) Kokura Arsenal - This is one of the largest arsenals in Japan and is surrounded by urban industrial structures. The arsenal is important for light ordnance, anti-aircraft and beach head defense materials. The dimensions of the arsenal are 4100’ x 2000’. The dimensions are such that if the bomb were properly placed full advantage could be taken of the higher pressures immediately underneath the bomb for destroying the more solid structures and at the same time considerable blast damage could be done to more feeble structures further away. (Classified as an A Target)
(5) Niigata - This is a port of embarkation on the N.W. coast of Honshu. Its importance is increasing as other ports are damaged. Machine tool industries are located there and it is a potential center for industrial despersion. It has oil refineries and storage. (Classified as a B Target)
(6) The possibility of bombing the Emperor’s palace was discussed. It was agreed that we should not recommend it but that any action for this bombing should come from authorities on military policy. It was agreed that we should obtain information from which we could determine the effectiveness of our weapon against this target.
B. It was the recommendation of those present at the meeting that the first four choices of targets for our weapon should be the following:

           a. Kyoto
           b. Hiroshima
           c. Yokohama
           d. Kokura Arsenal

C. Dr. Stearns agreed to do the following: (1) brief Colonel Fisher thoroughly on these matters, (2) request reservations for these targets, (3) find out more about the target area including exact locations of the strategic industries there, (4) obtain further photo information on the targets, and (5) to determine the nature of the construction, the area, heights, contents and roof coverage of buildings. He also agreed to keep in touch with the target data as it develops and to keep the committee advised of other possible target areas. He will also check on locations of small military targets and obtain further details on the Emperor’s palace.

  1. Psychological Factors in Target Selection

A. It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released.

B. In this respect Kyoto has the advantage of the people being more highly intelligent and hence better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon. Hiroshima has the advantage of being such a size and with possible focussing from nearby mountains that a large fraction of the city may be destroyed. The Emperor’s palace in Tokyo has a greater fame than any other target but is of least strategic value.
http://www.dannen.com/decision/targets.html

#792

I watched the movie called Trueman the other day and they showed that Japan mingled in their weoponry facilities with the civilian population and that it was very difficult to bomb the munition and weaponry sites without targetting civilians. Unlike Germany who had their operations different, it was not possible to bomb the Japanese without targetting civilians. The first target that America wanted to bomb was a symbolic historical city but they opted out on this in fear that the Japanese would become more resiliant of this, thus they picked the later 2 cities. I think I am right in my ascertations.

#793

I agree with waistgunner this would have eaten many men and resources also with the USSR at the doorstep USA needed a fortress against Commnusim in Asia. Because the USSR just invaded China to help the Chinese thus creating the People Republic of China why wouldent Russia just invade Japan and storm Tokyo like Berlin killing everything in there path so the USA thought that one historical nation had already been destroyed by the Russian why would you let another be pillaged,raped and destroyes by the Russian savages so they needed a quick way into the door so they let the Japanese open it.
We have all seen the photos of the Japanese crying in public do to hering they have given up. Nuclear Weapons should never be used but if ant time justified it then that was the time.

#794

i think they should have the japanese wouldnt have surrendered and they kiled so many americans in pows camps

#795

if they wouldnt have dropped them the war would have been longer

#796

I thought this article I just read was interesting and since this thread is about atomic bombs I put it in here!

http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/2009/03/24/8865696.html

TOKYO — A Japanese man has become the first person certified as a survivor of both U.S. atomic bombings at the end of the Second World War II, officials said Tuesday.
Tsutomu Yamaguchi, 93, had already been a certified “hibakusha,” or radiation survivor, of the Aug. 9, 1945, atomic bombing in Nagasaki, but has now been confirmed as surviving the attack on Hiroshima three days earlier as well, city officials said.
Yamaguchi was in Hiroshima on a business trip Aug. 6, 1945, when a U.S. B-29 dropped an atomic bomb on the city. He suffered serious burns to his upper body and spent the night in the city. He then returned to his hometown of Nagasaki just in time for the second attack, city officials said.
“As far as we know, he is the first one to be officially recognized as a survivor of atomic bombings in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki,” Nagasaki city official Toshiro Miyamoto said. “It’s such an unfortunate case, but it is possible that there are more people like him.”
Certification qualifies survivors for government compensation — including monthly allowances, free medical checkups and funeral costs — but Yamaguchi’s compensation will not increase, Miyamoto said.
Japan is the only country to have suffered atomic bomb attacks. About 140,000 people were killed in Hiroshima and 70,000 in Nagasaki.
Yamaguchi is one of about 260,000 people who survived the attacks. Bombing survivors have developed various illnesses from radiation exposure, including cancer and liver illnesses.
Details of Yamaguchi’s health problems were not released.
Thousands survivors continue to seek official recognition after the government rejected their eligibility for compensation. The government last year eased the requirements for being certified as a survivor, following criticism the rules were too strict and neglected many who had developed illnesses that doctors have linked to radiation.

#797

Russian savages?
You are an idiot.
Firstly coz you spread a nonsense about Russians , secondary you are a sick coz is going to save the Japanes from supposed “rapes and pillages” , murdering their childrens by thousands.

Nuclear Weapons should never be used but if ant time justified it then that was the time.

Well i would glad to see your children in Hiroshima in 1945, and you , crying that it was right time to do it:mrgreen:

#798

wow !!! incredible - survived them both. open the record books.

#799

namvet,

And I here after the second bomb, Yamaguchi decided to go rest for three or four weeks in Kokura. The probable site of the third bomb to come if Japan didn’t surrender.

Wouldn’t that have been a blast.

Deaf

#800

after the 2nd one I would wonder if their using ME for ground zero.