The air war.

Other Wars Falklands/Malvinas War
#141

I would argue that one out of eight bombs is a problem with the pilot as well as the Bombs.

The Herc has been used as a Bomber by several countries not to mention the American Spectre in a ground attack role.

The MOAB is realeased from a Herc, likewise the RAF drop parachutest and freght with a fair degree of accuracy.

I’ve seen a resup by Herc, dropping “torpedoes” from Pylons in a similar way. All hit the target.

For whatever reason the Argentinian Air Arms (Navy and Air Force) had major problems with their bombs, a fair few didn’t go off when they hit their targets.

#142

What sort of altitude were they bombing from?

One of my previous jobs involved the production of bomb aiming tables for the RAF. From my experience 1 out of 8 on a target the size of a ship is pretty good going.

For instance, when the Vulcan bombed Port Stanley airfield, they expected to get 1 out of 21 on the strip.

Bombing from any sort of altitude against a naval target is not easy.

#143

Don’t know, but I would think they would be able to come in reasonably low. I doubt they would try a high alt attack.

#144

I veguely remeber that the Hercules bombed from 1500 meters but I am not sure about that figure.

The only 100 % efficient bomb was the US made Snakeye used by the Armada aircrafts, all hits were explotions.

#145

Hercs can be accurate when being guided from the ground. Not the same thing as bombing over the sea. Not even close…

#146

5000 ft? Still pretty good going to hit a target from that altitude.

BTW Snakeye uses the US Mk80 series bombs (Mk 81 - 250 lb, MK82 - 500lb, Mk 83 1000 lb and MK 84 2000 lb). Those are Mk 80 series bombs on the Hercules and several of those didn’t go off.

Also Broadsword has hit with a snakeye and that didn’t go off either.

The issue with a lot of the hits on British ships was that the bombs were released too late and too low, not giving them time to fuze. It didn’t matter whether it was the 951 fuze in the UK 1000 lb bomb fitted with the 117 tail, or snakeye with Mk376/Mk31. On several occasions where hits were achieved, if the bomb had gone off it would have taken the aircraft out as well.

#147

THe HMS broadsword was hit with a 500 kg standar iron bomb.

I think the only ship attacked with snakeyes was the HMS Ardent and this type was also used agaist ground troops.

#148

From memory, and hence possibly unreliable, the navy fliers used the Mk80 series bombs whilst the air force considerately returned large amounts of 1000lb bombs that the British had sold to them.

BTW anyone using slick bombs against a ship is probably taking a one way ride to oblivion. When the bomb hits the target the aircraft will be directly above. Thats why retarded bombs were developed.

I think you’ll find Coventry and Broadsword were attacked with Snakeye.

#149

BTW anyone using slick bombs against a ship is probably taking a one way ride to oblivion. When the bomb hits the target the aircraft will be directly above. Thats why retarded bombs were developed.

Thats why fuse settings are there. I think a lot of the Argentine duds were the result of faulty fuse settings in that they didnt actually get set before penetrating the ships hull. If they were fused properly and given a ten sec delay then the ac would be long gone. Then theres the skip bombing option much practised by the USAAF in the Pacific in WW2.

#150

Skip bombing doesn’t work at jet speeds, you’d frag the aircraft as well.

Against a frigate/destroyer a 10 s delay would probably result in the bomb going straight through the ship. Look at HMS Glasgow, Broadsword and others.

#151

think you’ll find Coventry and Broadsword were attacked with Snakeye.

:neutral:

:neutral:

:neutral:

:neutral:

Why me ?

LR for the last time: the HMS Broadsword and Coventry were attacked with Mk-17 1000 pounds bombs.

From the Air Force official site.

[i]

[SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]Lear Jet LR-35A, indicativo “Ranquel”. Despegó de Comodoro Rivadavia a las 13:45. Misión: retransmisor. Tripulación: Tenientes Emil Williams y Gustavo Cercedo, Cabo 1º Dardo Rocha. Regresó a Comodoro Rivadavia a las 16:55 hs, por Malvinas. Debía encontrarse en el punto este (51º 30’ S / 64º 00’ O), a nivel de vuelo 350 para apoyar a las escuadrillas:

Tres A-4B Skyhawk, indicativo “Vulcano”, armados con una bomba MK-17. Tripulación: Capitán Marcos Carballo (C-225), Teniente Carlos Rinke (C-214), Alférez Leonardo Carmona. Despegaron de Río Gallegos a las 14:00 hs. Arribaron a las 17:00 hs.

Tres A-4B Skyhawk, indicativo “Zeus”. Tripulación: Primer teniente Mariano Velasco (C-212), Alférez Jorge Barrionuevo (C-207), Teniente Carlos Osses (C-204). Despegaron de Río Gallegos a las 14:00 hs. Arribaron a Río Gallegos a las 17:00 hs.

En ambas escuadrillas fallaron los Nros. 3 (en la “Vulcano” el Alférez Carmona, no decoló por inconvenientes técnicos y, en la “Zeus”, el Teniente Ossés se volvió después de 240 MN por problemas en su transmisor de VHF; arribó a GAL a las 16:00 hs).

Las secciones llegaron al norte de la isla Borbón con 2/3 minutos de intervalo e hicieron el reabastecimiento en vuelo.

A las 15:20 hs, la sección “Vulcano” (Carballo - Rinke), atacó la fragata 22 HMS Broadsword que repelió el ataque con misiles, granadas de fragmentación y cañones. Los argentinos lograron arrojar sus bombas de 1.000 lbs sin apreciar los resultados.

La sección “Zeus” comprobó que de la popa de la HMS Broadsword salía un intenso humo negro. De acuerdo con informes ingleses, fue dañado el sistema de dirección y propulsión. El Capitán Carballo regresó con tanque derecho de combustible perforado por una esquirla.

[/i][/COLOR][/SIZE]

#152

Mk17 + 117 tail?

Could be, that would be the 951 fuze.

I thought it was Navy Skyhawks that hit Coventry and Broadsword?

#153

I wouldn’t put too much faith in the Argentine official sites, they still claims hits on Invincible.

But I digress.

#154

Invincible hit or not really doesnt matter at this point, the thing was the the pilot knew what bombs were using the 25th may, and it wasnt snakeyes.

Lynx nose blow off by Carballo s bomb.

http://members.fortunecity.com/aokaze/images/cronologia/mayo/heli_lynx.jpg

#155

Point taken re the skip bombing. However the fuse setting of ten secs was arbitrary and I realise that it should be a lot shorter. However, I dont know if there is evidence that any mal-fused bombs passed through any ships. The one on Ardent blew up a lot later I remember.

#156

There was a number of occasions where a bomb passed straight through a ship. HMS Glasgow, HMS Plymouth, HMS Broadsword, RFA Sir Tristram.

When the EOD teams defused some of the bombs, they found the arming vanes had only turned a few times. It was plain that the pilots were releasing too late and too low. Then the BBC helpfully explained what they were doing wrong…and the rest is history.

I’ve seen a quote from one Argentine source that credited the BBC as their number one source of BDA.

#157

That was one problem, we were far too open. The attack on Goose Green was advertised prior to the attack, in one media debacle.

This has been pointed out before in the Invincible threads, we admitted and reported every nick and scratch sustained by the Fleet.

#158

Navy T-34c in action:

I recently chanced upon a short article written 10 yrs ago about the exploits of one (Lieutenant) Jose Maria Pereyra Dozo, a flying instructor at the Naval Aviation School in Argentina. As a result of the conflict he was ultimately to lead a division of Beechcraft T-34C Turbo- Mentors into ‘battle’, in the role of Close Air Support, based at the Calderon Naval Air Station on Borton Island (Pebble Island). The Mentors were armed with machine guns and rockets. Eventually they ended up sharing the Island with Pucaras.

In summary they undertook seven missions. Six as armed reconnaissance and one to “intercept a British helicopter landing near Puerto Argentino”. It’s this mission which fills most of the article, in his own words. Somewhere after just crossing the Falkland Sound they were intercepted by two Sea Harriers.

He describes in detail how he outmaneuvered the Harrier low on the water seeing “splashes on the water of a burst of cannon fire”(30mm). Jettisoning his load he managed to evade the Harrier in cloud (300metres above sea level). He eventually made it back to Calderon’s runway with only a “hole” on the rear cockpit canopy.

The SAS raid on Calderon on May 14 1982 ended any further missions.The aircraft were mostly destroyed or damaged by grenade launchers, explosives and small arms fire but one survived Turbo-Mentor, ‘1-A-411’, which was at one point in time on display at the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton, Somerset.
He and his crew were evacuated by army helicopter to Puerto Argentino and managed to penetrate the no-fly zone in a Beechcraft King Air 200 back to the mainland three days later.

If anything, a good advertisement for Beechcraft aircraft!

#159

Hello everybody,

My Nick is Pánzon and I am an aficionado to military history and being myself Argentine by born, I do have a special interest on the actions fought on the Malvinas/Falkland conflict in 1982.

I just discovered this forum, and I just finished reading this thread and I think that I can add something on the Antelope event as I made friends with a survivor of this ship and we did start a nice friendship that took us in a trip to remember those terrible days…

Just by chance, I was able to made Keith ( the survivor) exchange greetings with the flight leader that attacket the Antelope ( Cap Pablo Marcos Carballo “Cruz”- now Commodore Carballo) and they are collaborating together for the upcoming book by Commodore Carballo “The Falcons shold not be cried on”… this book will honor the 55 fallen heroes of the Argentine Air Force during the conflict and also exchanged greetings and shows of respect with Luciano Guadagnini Jr. ( he was not yet born when his father made the utmost sacrifice)… Luciano Jr does not hold hate against any British serviceman, he knows his father was doing his job, as everybody else tried to his best… he was the pilot that crashed against the rear aerial of HMS Antelope that sad, but at the same time “lucky” day on the 21st of May 1982 not before dropping his mortal load over the Amazon Frigate…

In hindsight, I can say that I am happy the bombs did not went off inmediatelly… My friendship with Keith would not have been possible otherwise… Luciano Guadagnini Jr. thinks the same… as do Commodore Carballo…

Okey now, having made the presentation, I will copy here the first letter I received from keith in response to my pledge for him to tell me his “story”, it is terrible… I can assure you… I sincerily hope this letter is treated with respect, there are good feelings that you can read on like in a palimpsest… and also horrible fear, of being killed in the innards of a “tin can” without nothing to do… also, it is part of my personal correspondence and if all goes well and I receive authorization I will gladly post some more of the letters…

I hope you all will understand that I am bringing this story only as it relates to a terrible time, at a horrible and far away place. I am NOT an enemy of the British… I am convinced the Malvinas/Falklands are and always been Argentine, but this is not the “direction of this post” I just want to share this story with you.

Also, I want to present a little bit better the character of 1st Lt Guadagnini… and make VERY clear that he did not crashed against the FH5 Aerial because of a “kami Kaze” action… he tried to drop his bombs on target even when he knew that was the last thing he was going to do… knowing quite well that Luciano Jr was in his wife womb and not due to come to this world until 3 months later… this I can say as “Bunny Warren”, the gunner that hosed 1st Lt. Guadagnini plane with 20 mm just before he dropped his bombs was practically looking into his eyes at the moment of truth…

Okey, this was a long presentation, let us go to the letter.

[b]""Hi Juan,

No problem telling you how things were from my point of view however, it
was
25 years ago and I was only 17 (not even old enough to legally drink
alcohol!) at the time.
There are no apologies needed from any Argentinian to me. I have to say
I don’t think that the UK has any claim on the Falklands at all. 8000
miles
off shore is hardly British soil in my eyes.
I was on HMS Antelope in San Carlos Water (Bomb Alley) on the 23rd of
May
when we were attacked by four skyhawk aircraft. One was hit by small
arms
fire and crashed into the aft mast (Our FH5 aerial). That pilot was an
absolute hero because even knowing he was about to crash, he still
deployed
his 1000lb bomb and hit the target (Aft starboard).
We took a second 1000lb bomb on the port side further forward from
another
plane soon after. This pilot also has my utmost respect as do they all.
The events thereafter are well documented.
My main memory of those days was the absolute terror I felt when under
attack. When the plane hit us, the ship keeled hard to port and dust
was
shook down from the air vents creating a haze. At the same time the
bomb
crashed into the ship one compartment ahead of me and fractured a freon
gas
line which set off the chemical alarms. This was pretty much a worse
case
scenario because we genuinly believed that we had been hit by a chemical
weapon. I was so scared I couldn’t even get my gas mask out of its bag.
By the time the next attack came the giros had packed up as had most of
the
lights. I was in the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. We
had
no idea what was going on outside. Only the roar of guns and jets above
our
heads. Each time a plane attacked I remember thinking; “Please God, Let
the
bombs land further forward’ please don’t let me die down here.” It’s a
hard
thing to admit that you actually wished for others to die instead of
you,
but, just lying there in a semi dark smokey coffin with chaos screaming
overhead, it is how I felt. All seventeen years of me was terrified
beyond
description. I was a virgin and still had no use for shaving.
When I got back to the Uk I suffered terrible guilt. I started drinking
and
picking fights with the biggest guys in the bar, probably to try and
proove
to myself that I wasn’t a coward. The funny thing was I would never
defend
myself once in a fight, I would just let the guy beat the crap out of
me.
I once provoked a gang of Hells Angels into smashing my face in one
night.
The Navy ended up sending me to a psychiatrist but I only really healed
years later.

Now life is great I live pretty much without fear which has enabled me
to
become modestly successful.
I have forgiven that kid for being scared back then. Hell, he didin’t
even
have a gun to hold or any way to defend himself down there in the dark.
And
to his credit he stayed at his station till the order to abandon ship
came.
He never cried out or outwardly disgraced himself. He was just a kid
who
didn’t want to die a horrible death before he had a chance to become a
man.

For me, Argentina was never a enemy because I think we were the bad guys
in
it all. I think it is us who should apologise. Many of us cried when
we
heard about the sinking of the General Belgrano while we were still
steaming
to the area… . They were our brothers of the sea.

Please feel free to ask me anything. I will tell you the absolute truth
as
I understand or remember it.
As I say, I have made my peace with myself. I have attatched a photo of
myself as I am now. I will try and scan a picture of me from back then
and
enclose it another time. You will not believe how young I looked. I
could
have passed for twelve!

Adios Amigo
[/b]
hasta luego

Keith"

Receive my best regards and I hope you welcome me on the forum and that we can respectfully talk about this “100 Days”…

Cheers to all,

Pánzon

#160

Also from Keith,

""Hi Juan,

To the family of 1st Leutenant Guadagnini, I offer my sincerest sympathy.
His memory lives on in all of us who fought and the example he set in
life, is a standard that few will ever achieve no matter how many years
they are blessed with.

Adios amigo

Keith"