The air war.

Other Wars Falklands/Malvinas War
#161

Many of us cried when
we
heard about the sinking of the General Belgrano while we were still
steaming
to the area… . They were our brothers of the sea.

:roll:…

“The Falcons shold not be cried on”… this book will honor the 55 fallen heroes of the Argentine Air Force during the conflict and also exchanged greetings and shows of respect with Luciano Guadagnini Jr. ( he was not yet born when his father made the utmost sacrifice).

The pilots were people doing his work, no more no less, unfortunately not all in the Argentine Armed forces were doing theirs.

#162

I call shenanigans on that letter, there are certain phrases and choices of words which a native English speaker wouldn’t use. There also appear to be a few “set phrases” which appear commonly in Argentine fakery but a brit would never use.

Also, while it is conceivable that a 17-year-old could be serving, were there any on antelope?

#163

Yes there were 17 year old ones in the navy, Keith is an example of that… the letter is authentic and should you foster ANY doubts, I will provide you with absolute proof so you can check tihs out… nothing is forged on that letter, I have plenty more from him and also he was portrayed in the local press when the 25th anniversary of the conflict,

I am sorry I am very-very busy and I can not take the time to clear your doubts right now, but… I will…

As per the wording… Keith is a fantastic writer of letters and obviously his education is above general level, there is no rime slang there neither any Kockney, remember we started exchanging letters and I just posted the first…

Cheers and until later, I think over the week end I will be able to clarify ALL your doubts and overcome ANY objections regarding their authenticity.

Cheers and keep tuned as I will be back.

Juan

BTW Panzerknacker, Mi “nick” is always the same in any forum… where do you know me from? :mrgreen:

#164

Back in the good old days, the UK armed forces placed no restrictions on anyone under 18 deploying into a combat zone. Whether or not he is genuine I dont know, but I do know that I had a few friends who joined in time for the Falklands that were packed off to Ascension and they were definately 17.

#165
  1. if “Keith” has education above the general level, why was he in the Navy at 17 and not at school?
  2. why does he phrase his English like a native Spanish speaker, and express himself culturally in a way that is significantly more Spanish-speaking than English-speaking?

This was the response on a British military forum:

sandy_boots

110% bollox

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oldbaldy

Says he was 17 at the time as well. mmmm!

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Private_Pike

Fiction and pretty sh1tty fiction at that.

Back to top

happybonzo

No doubt lots of people feel regrets for actions that they have made in the past but there is something about this that stinks. This is too much like that Vietnam nonsense posted by some so-called Vet. that we had a while back
It is all too trite in the manner in which it has been presented. It would be interesting if Quote::
Keith
, Quote::
Cap Pablo Marcos Carballo “Cruz”- now Commodore Carballo
, Quote::
Luciano Jr
and others named could be more positively identified. Some of those names I would imagine are in the public domain.
Until then, as sandy_boots says Quote::
110% bollox

#166

I have my grandfather’s service records and he joined the Netherlands KL (Royal Army) at age 15, believe it or not. He later re-enlisted and transfered to the KNIL (Royal Netherlands Indies Army).

#167

BTW Panzerknacker, Mi “nick” is always the same in any forum… where do you know me from?

SOBAORTS. :smiley:

  1. if “Keith” has education above the general level, why was he in the Navy at 17 and not at school?
  2. why does he phrase his English like a native Spanish speaker, and express himself culturally in a way that is significantly more Spanish-speaking than English-speaking?

I have to recognize that if true is not very well written, the part that bother me the most is the one:

[b]

Many of us cried when
we
heard about the sinking of the General Belgrano while we were still
steaming
to the area…
[/b]

Thats is definately hard to believe.

#168

I had my doubts when I read it, it didn’t ring true. But as Panzon as offered to provide proof, then lets see what turns up.

#169

I’d go with PK here, young boys and men going into battle would surely have cheered the demise of an enemy vessel. At that point they hadnt been in contact with any enemy. However, perhaps if he is a real man, he was confused about when exactly he felt remorse.

#170

PanzerK,

If you know me from SAORBATS, you must know by now that I would never sell “rotten fish”… I have a reputation to maintain and I NEVER “forged” anything … want to send me your Nick there via PM so I can recognize you?

Also, I did publish these letters on SAORBATS MONTHS ago… please check the subforum “history” “Cartas con un superviviente del HMS Antelope”

Anyway, I am disappointed about the negative comments and the doubts casted over the truth they are somewhat insulting, but… everybody seems to know better than I do on this subject altough it is a VERY- VERY true story which, to my knowledge shows how even a 17 years old locked into the guts of a ship under attack in spite of being terrorized behaved like an adult and a veteran…

I will leave you here with two pictures one of Keith receiving his medal for the campaign… which I think it is enough… but I will leave you also a scan that Keith sent me of a local newspaper in England where they decided to run the story…

Sincerily, I have lost the interest in discussing this matter over here as there seems to be “sensible” for a lot of people… but since I think here I give proof enough I think that an apology would be the right thing to do as I was somewhat called a "forgerer2 or more directly a liar… anyway, apology is not required…:wink:

In this pic, Keith is receiving the medal for the campaign from a Rear Admiral RN in 1982/3…

Now, here is the scan on the article…

And some more words from Keith…
[b]
"Because of the 25th anniversary of the Falklands war, the press have
descended on me. Attatched here is the first article from the shropshire
star. Very embarassing. A quarter of page one and most of page four! I
wore sunglasses and a wig for days after!!!

The next one is a North West Newspaper article about the same old stuff,
followed a week later by a bigger article about my life since the war which
may fun. I will send you them when they are out…

Hope you are happy and healthy
Luv
Keith"[/b]

And now, is this proof of good faith and truth?

Need more proof?

My best regards to you all forum colleagues…

Pánzon.

#171

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2007/06/vivid-memories-of-warship-attack/

“OK, todays photo is of Antelope’s starboard aft 20mm gun crew. I am pleased
to report they couldn’t hit a barn door at twenty paces and a harmed no one!
I do have a photo that I will send you of Leading Seaman ‘Bunny Warren’
during action stations. He was our starboard fwd 20mm gunner and it was he
who was ‘credited’ with shooting down 1st leutenant Guadagnini.”

I hope that is enough

Juan.

With regards of the doubts casted on the letter post, I would like to gently ask you to read the post again… somebody was quoting ME, the part written by Keith is in BOLD !!

#172

PanzerK,

If you know me from SAORBATS, you must know by now that I would never sell “rotten fish”… I have a reputation to maintain and I NEVER “forged” anything … want to send me your Nick there via PM so I can recognize you?

To be honest I really dont bother about this because I hate that forum, years have passed since my last participation, I also hate the moderators in there, actually If sometime in my life I get in the way of the punk called “Neurus” I will gracefully proceed to disfigurate him with my fist.

In any case I never claim I dont believe you, I just said that a briton crying about sinking an enemy ship is something that I definately dont buy.

Thanks for your information and images.

#173

In any case I never claim I dont believe you, I just said that a briton crying about sinking an enemy ship is something that I definately dont buy.

Well, PanzerK,

Man of little faith… would you take my word on this?

Do you still doubt it?

Haven´t I offered enough proof?

Why do you hate SAORBATS? Been bollocked? if so, I am sorry.

Juan.

PS: Since you seem to “know” me… will you please PM with your SAORBATS “Alias”? I guarantee my silence but now I am curious.

#174

Is really unimportant, I wont give space in this nice forum to the little people of sobaorts.

Man of little faith… would you take my word on this?

Do you still doubt it?

Haven´t I offered enough proof?

How you will give your word for the feelings of a third person ?

That is really dangerous. :roll:

#175

I still think the letter has been faked, maybe parts have been added to it.

#176

Hello G-Plumber,

Well, that is directly saying that I at least forged part of the letter if I am not mistaken by far. it is not enough that I posted the original, not letter, but e-mail ( considerable less formal than a leter ussually)… then I´ve posted his picture being decorated at Pembroke by no less than a Rear Admiral RN, I have treated the military adversary then (THEN ! 90% of my friends are Britons, and I work in a "British/Spanish Co.) with respect… I have posted a scan of an English PAPER article together with some words from him, then the link straight to the article in that paper… independent source I think, where even the real name of Keith and his whereabouts are mentioned ( I do not own that News Paper:))…

And still you think that I then “forged part of the letter”?

Wht is the part I “forged”? where he describe her fears during the attack? where he recognized the inner wish for the bombs to struck farther a beam so he could live to be able to shave? an have the oportunity of at least have sex once?

Where he said ( rather informally) that some of them "cried for their “brothers of the sea”? when the Belgrano went down? They knew they were going to against perhaps 3 SSK´s… so what goes around may come around?

Where he says that he thinks “we were the bad guys in there”? That 8,000 miles away was in his eyes hardly British soil? Do you think that everyone in the tast force thought the Falklands/Malvinas were worth that fight? I am pretty sure that there were divided opinions, but duty comes first… even when you are 17…

My only intention on bringuing this story to this forum was to show something different, dramatic, and to try to put bridges that may close certain doors that apparently can not yet be closed… show something from a different point of view and try to discuse in a civilized manner… and then I am repeatedly accussed of forgery…

I will keep on answering with education any question about this matter, but from my point of view, the discussion will end here as I my time is absolutelly precious and I am not at the least interested in any flame wars with anybody for whatever reason.

I thank you all for the attention given to this matter so far and I remain, at your service.

Pánzon.:slight_smile:

#177

Well there was enough information in what you gave for me to find Keith’s email address fairly easily. So I dropped him a line, we’ll see what his has to say.

That should settle all doubts, shouldn’t it.

EDIT

BTW just being picky but “starboard fwd 20mm”? In 1982, The Type 21 Frigate had two 20 mm cannon, one port, one starboard. So there is no aft and fwd gun just a Port and Starboard. The additional guns weren’t added to the class until after the Falklands War.

Also on the Type 21, the 20 mm Oerlikon is mounted on the bridge wings. The posted picture appears to be from a Type 21 facing aft, which would make the picture of the Port installation.

Check wiki for Type 21 info on HMS Antelope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Antelope_(F170), quick check on other sites confirms the wiki information.

#178

Panzon, dont pay much attention to the “Gun Plumber” is a well know troll around here. Le gusta romper la bolas nomas . For me all the topic of the letter is confirmed and terminated.

#179

Hello Lone Ranger,

I am happy to hear that you have dropped some lines to Keith so he can clarify your doubts, I do not doubt he will do it as he domonstrated several times for me the good will and his total and absolutelly sincerity about all this. I hope he is not treated as “unpatriotic” for being friendly and sharing his experience with me and authorizing me for making it “public”…

This is a very dramatic sea story and I did took it as it is, as well as him, I do not keep ANY bad feelings for what it happenned then and the defeat of the Argentine forces was a direct consecuence of the Junta´s improvisation and lack of sense of reality… from some point of view, that defeat ended with a sad chapter of my country history as the "military dictatorship went off never to return thanks to God…

I hope Keith is respected in his views and not “attacked” as “antipatriotic” or whatever as he is VERY British, a complete gentleman and from my point of view a man of good faith…

I will also drop some lines to him to ask him to see this thread and if he wishes, I am sure he will drop over here to sustain my sayings, but if he does not, I will understand it.

The exchange of e-mail went on for several weeks and there is a whealth of info in there, some of them very personal… in Any case, I invite you all to read when it becomes available in English to read the next book from Commodore Carballo which as I said before will be the story of the 55 fallen FAA personnel then, in there, in the chapter of 1st Lt PM Guadagnini you will find ALL the info as he has accepted to collaborate with Com Carballo on this book…

On the other side, I understand that some of you may have “doubts” about what an “Argie” says in an English forum especially when it is such a dramatic view over one event even more dramatic.

I can only thank God in hindsight that those bombs did not went of inmediatelly as if they did I would not had had the oppportunity to “meet” and become a friend of Keith as I consider my self to be.

With regards to the position of the guns, I think that perhaps… for that time, extra AA positions may be added to help defend the ship in case of air attack… they knew where they were going…

One of the things that they knew for sure is that Antelope was gonna be exactly where the “Ardent” was blown out before, so they considered themselves a sort of bait… and they sort of " knew" something was coming.

Best regards.

Pánzon. ( Juan )

#180

Lone Ranger;108199]Well there was enough information in what you gave for me to find Keith’s email address fairly easily. So I dropped him a line, we’ll see what his has to say.

That should settle all doubts, shouldn’t it.

Yes, off course… and I hope MAN OF SOAT may inform of the possitive proof to all his friends from other forums that said so many things such a “bollox”…

Juan.