The forgotten holocaust

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#41

It’s unlikely that they would have got that far. The terrain is truly horrible and at the time there were only a few dirt roads crossing it. There is simply no way that an effective invasion could be mounted across it.

Maybe not - more likely they would be policing parts of Russia, or stuck somewhere in Persia or Afghanistan.
In any case, the US did not have to invade, it had to beat Germany. The combination of the B-36 and nuclear weapons make it relatively easy to destroy Germany from the air.

#42

Well i/m agree with this point.
Actualy the downfall of USSR would cost the Allies the victoy in this war

#43

And what about the German newest Jet fighters that can easy intercept B-36 and crushed few dozen of them ( because it was so super-expensive) down?
Or do you think the technical progress was going ONLY in USA :);)?
Yankees have entered in mass production ( if we can call “mass” the production of tens of B-36 per year ) only in 1949-1950. At this time Germany shall get the new king of Jet fighters.
BTW are you sure the BRitain would still resist in the 1949?

#44

The Germans never built a jet fighter capable of even getting close to a B-36, and indeed it wasn’t until the MiG-17 came into service that anyone could reliably intercept it. Prior to that, the only thing which could theoretically get up high enough to destroy one was the Me-163, and this had such a short range that the B-36 would have to practically overfly the airfield to be at risk. Going by recently declassified documents (and NOT what was released at the time) the altitude of the B-36 over target with a full bomb load was around 50,000ft. During WW2 “extremely high altitude” was around 40,000ft, and this was only achieved very rarely indeed by some highly specialised aircraft.

Not at all. However, unless the Americans went around telling all and sundry about the capabilities of the B-36 (and why should they) nobody will know about the high altitude capabilities until a bunch of them appear over Germany delivering a few buckets of instant sunrise.

Highly unlikely. Firstly, the B-36 was produced in peacetime not wartime, and shelved during the war as it was not required - so in wartime it would have been available in mass a couple of years earlier if desired. Secondly, the “high tech” German jet fighters of 1945 were truly dire - the only jet fighter to descend from one of those was the Argentinian Pulqui, and even that used a British engine and was scrapped as a complete dog shortly after it’s first flight.

Unless the UK received masses of cash from the US by 1942, it would have been bankrupt and would have had to sue for peace.

#45

I don’t remember challenging the fact that Germany declared war on the US. However, I would hardly call the Russian invasion of Poland non expansive and non empire-building. I suppose that we can blame the Germans for that one as well, but nobody forced the Soviets to invade Poland, divide it up with the Germans and kill a whole punch of Poles for measure. I think that what they did in Poland in 1939 and 1940 was a good indication about Stalin’s plans. The only difference here is that Hitler was an impatient fool who couldn’t wait for the Russians to attack first. It would have happened in a matter of a couple of years, while the Russians gave themselves enough time to strengthen their armed forces. And I have difficulty believing that the US stayed in Europe for so many years after the war because the US thought that the Russians were nice neighbors. They knew that they wouldn’t be from the beginning and even Patton had misgivings about having them as allies. The alliance with Russia so that they could just “kill Germans” was short sighted and narrow minded. The tactic of “let’s obliterate one enemy while stengthening another enemy that will eventually become a thorn on our sides” is kind of dumb.
Regardless of that, my initial point was that the abuses of other countries, including Russia, have never been given much importance while the Holocaust is brought up over and over and given a good lengthy piece in most history books. Those abuses should be treated as what they are, atrocities against humanity. And wanting to bring them to light doesn’t make people like me anti semitic or pro Nazi.

#46

I don’t remember challenging the fact that Germany declared war on the US. However, I would hardly call the Russian invasion of Poland non expansive and non empire-building. I suppose that we can blame the Germans for that one as well, but nobody forced the Soviets to invade Poland, divide it up with the Germans and kill a whole bunch of Poles for measure. I think that what they did in Poland in 1939 and 1940 was a good indication about Stalin’s plans. The only difference here is that Hitler was an impatient fool who couldn’t wait for the Russians to attack first. It would have happened in a matter of a couple of years, while the Russians gave themselves enough time to strengthen their armed forces.
And I have difficulty believing that the US stayed in Europe for so many years after the war because the US thought that the Russians were nice neighbors. They knew that they wouldn’t be from the beginning and even Patton had misgivings about having them as allies. The alliance with Russia so that they could just “kill Germans” was short sighted and narrow minded. The tactic of “let’s obliterate one enemy while stengthening another enemy that will eventually become a thorn on our sides” is kind of dumb.
Regardless of that, my initial point was that the abuses of other countries, including Russia, have never been given much importance while the Holocaust is brought up over and over and given a good lengthy piece in most history books. Those abuses should be treated as what they are, atrocities against humanity. And wanting to bring them to light doesn’t make people like me anti semitic or pro Nazi. The fact that the Germans drew first blood doesn’t exonerate the Russians from what they did and the US should have had the gonadal fortitude to bring those events to light just like they did with the Germans and with the same strength of conviction. Instead, we let them have half of Germany.

#47

The Germans were making enormous technical progress. If their industrial centers had been left unbombed they may have very well acquired nuclear technology before the US and were much closer to an ICBM.
I doubt Germany would have invaded the East by land, with the Suez Canal and the Black Sea available to them a seaborne attack would have been more likely.

#48

But you forget to add something.
Nobody invaided Polan in 1939:)
The Western Ukraine and Belorussian was just a part of Ukrainian and belorussian land , that have been cuptured by the Poles in 1920.
The Poles was developing IMPERIAL-bulding plans very well. They even cuptured the good piece of Chehoslovakia in 1938 themself:)
Of course it was soviet agression, but harly the POOR pols can hope to be “innocent victims” of this agression.If not polish militarists attack on Ukraine- the Poland 1939 would never happend.
They pretty grabed their neiighbours themsel.

#49

No way on earth. They couldn’t even calculate critical mass correctly and didn’t realise that Graphite could be used as a moderator!

Not while the RN was still in existence. After the Norwegian campaign, the German navy was virtually exterminated. It’s a land campaign or nothing.

#50

Or B-29’s, if the Soviets were out of the picture, it becomes an air war of attrition, and looking at the figures, the British/American combination have a massive superiority in men and material, [total production 436,000 aircraft] and could hit German production, while the Germans, [with Italy 130,000 aircraft, plus Japan 70,000] had no way of touching the prodigious American production centres.

Could Germany ramp up their production to defeat the British/American combination under the strategic bombing. No doubt they would still be fighting on past the historical May surrender date, which in the end could be very unfortunate, because come August…Armageddon.

#51

Depends if the UK was still in the war. The B-29 would have relied on bases in the UK to hit Germany, and was always very marginal for delivering nuclear weapons. The B-36 was much more suitable and could hit Germany from bases in the continental US.

Depends on the decision the US make. If they go for 1-2 weapons then August it is - but that isn’t Armageddon for Germany. If they make the decision to destroy Germany, it’ll be 1947 before they have enough weapons for the job (150 or so).

#52

GErmans have enough time till the 1949 to develop their newest Jet progects.
Besides you are forgetting - the Germans have the supetiority in Rocketry.in 1945 they were close to build enough reliable A4. Plus the perspective subcontinental A-9 were in progress.

Not at all. However, unless the Americans went around telling all and sundry about the capabilities of the B-36 (and why should they) nobody will know about the high altitude capabilities until a bunch of them appear over Germany delivering a few buckets of instant sunrise.

You remind me a Hitler, with his “secret SuperWearpom” that shall defeat all the enemies armies exaclty in first time it would have been used in front.The Tiger 2 was also a secret untill the most his first battle in Poland in august 1944…

Highly unlikely. Firstly, the B-36 was produced in peacetime not wartime, and shelved during the war as it was not required - so in wartime it would have been available in mass a couple of years earlier if desired. Secondly, the “high tech” German jet fighters of 1945 were truly dire - the only jet fighter to descend from one of those was the Argentinian Pulqui, and even that used a British engine and was scrapped as a complete dog shortly after it’s first flight.

But the “dire” Me-262 has a maximum speed 100+ km/h ( about 800km/h) more then Meteor already in 1944 :slight_smile:
And its 4x30 mm were deadly effective against the B-29, plus rockets RM4.
Besides the new modification of Me-262 ( as i remember it was GIII) should be ready in 1946.
So i would not like to bet on the B-36 :slight_smile:

#53

So what? The explosive warheads they used in our WW2 were pretty ineffective (caused a fair few civilian casualties, but didn’t affect the course of the war at all). If they had used Nerve Gas warheads (Tabun) it might have made a difference, but they elected not to.

The difference here is that looking back we know exactly how the Tiger 2 and Nuclear Weapons performed in combat, and how the B-36 performed in peacetime. Therefore we can tell that it is indeed a superweapon.


That’s the internal USAF publication on the B-36. The values below the line give the service ceiling (defined as the altitude at which rate of climb drops to 100 feet per minute. For an empty aircraft, that altitude is 49,100 ft. For the “High Altitude” mission with 10,000 lbs of bombs (i.e. one nuclear weapon) the service ceiling is 44,600 ft. After a long flight, the aircraft will probably drift up to ~46,000 ft.

The “service ceiling” of the Me-262 is ~37,500 ft, meaning that the Me-262 will be unable to get within 3km vertically of the B-36.
The speed advantage isn’t even all that big (730 km/hr versus 870 km/hr) meaning that the Me-262 can only realistically attack from behind, and even then has to get reasonably close for a successful intercept. Maximum range of the Me-262 is ~1000km, but that is at cruising speed. Allowing for fuel burn in the climb and the higher fuel burn at high speed, that means that even if a B-36 was dumb enough (or has a mechanical issue - loss of pressurisation for instance) to descend into intercept range the Me-262 needs to be based within ~100km of the B-36 flightpath to have a hope of intercepting it.

#54

Excuse me for my impertinence, my dear Mr. Pdf 27, but have you checked recently those planned ceilings for the Messerschmitt Me 262 C-3a Heimatschützer III? Alternatively, perhaps the top ceiling for the Heinkel He 162 C? Or - God forbid! - those figures for the Ho 229 A-1 or Ho 229 B-1? No? Well, as far as I know, they fluctuated between 14.300 and 16.000 meters. It seems to me that employment of the favored Jagdflieger tactics described in brief by those immortal words “Nach unten vereisen!” – at least theoretically! - is possible. :slight_smile:

But never mind that – we will discuss these highly intriguing questions in our suitable threads.:wink:

#55

Are these theoretical or achieved ceilings? The two are very different things, as while an aircraft may have appropriate power and wing loading to reach the altitude in question but will still be totally uncontrollable at that height. The fact that the US themselves were unable to intercept the B-36 for some years (as indeed were the Soviets unable to do anything about RB-36 aircraft flying over them in broad daylight) strongly points towards these aircraft being little beyond Napkinwaffe…

#56

The UK could probably hang on until the Americans arrived in force, why not use the three bombs before the end of August '45, with three more in September and a further three in October, IIRC 9 Fat Man bombs were ready by June '46, you don’t think those, plus the bombing offensive, would be enough?

#57

Oh, as always- they are completely theoretical, my dear Mr. Pdf 27. :slight_smile:

Unfortunately, the single prototype of the rocket-boosted interceptor Me 262 C-3a Heimatschützer III was completed in March of 1945, but never test-flown, while work on Ho 229 V8 – the third pattern aircraft for the Ho 229 A-1 airplane – barely started in February of 1945. However, certain theoretical conclusions, or perhaps rationally consistent technological evaluations, are completely possible.

Me 262 C-3a Heimatschützer III

You see, if an airplane like Ho 229 A-1 has a theoretical service ceiling of 15.800 meters, while his supposed adversary - the B36-A Peacemaker - possesses impartially verified and confirmed service ceiling of 11.917 meters, it is more than evident that the combat ceiling of the German fighter will surpass his opponent for 3.883 meters, thus being completely capable to maintain a highly important altitude advantage, required for the most effective vertical leap-and-drop maneuver. Even with an incorporated combat ceiling restriction of cca. 1.500 – 2000 meters (theoretically completely sufficient as a restricting compensation for the fully operative aerodynamic controllability of the airplane) the German machine still has a decisive advantage in combat ceiling. :smiley:

Of course, numerous additional, more exotic German designs (like Messerschmitt P.1106 R, with a theoretical service ceiling of 20.000 meters) were completely excluded from our tiny theoretical observation.

BTW – have you checked those factual, measured combat-ceiling results for the completely forgotten Soviet machine, Yak 23 Flora, my dear Mr. Pdf 27? You know, for some unknown reasons Americans were highly interested for that tiny and completely unappealing airplane. Unbelievably, back there in 1953 they were willing to pay certain amount of solid gold + a long term friendship with all subsequent material and moral advantages to us (I mean Yugoslavia!) for a… basically stolen merchandise, purchased accidentally by the YAF on the 23rd of July, 1953, which was efficiently transferred back there to the good ole US of A.

Ex-Rumanian Yak 23 Flora, captured by YAF at some stage in testing – 1953.

Of course, that is a completely different story… :wink:

#58

True
But the A-4 was an excellent basis for perspectiev AA-missels that , leading by a radar ray , can hit any Bomber on any possible for aircraft altitude up to 40 km.
You probably know about Germans designs in that field ( AA-rocketry) Thay also own an absolute leadership in this field in 1945…

The difference here is that looking back we know exactly how the Tiger 2 and Nuclear Weapons performed in combat, and how the B-36 performed in peacetime. Therefore we can tell that it is indeed a superweapon.

True
But we also saw a Me-262 in combat.It was mortal for B-29 formations, keep in mind that the its speed was far out of speed of escorts fighters like P-51/47.
The ONLY way to shot it dowm was to catch it on the taking off or landing.

That’s the internal USAF publication on the B-36. The values below the line give the service ceiling (defined as the altitude at which rate of climb drops to 100 feet per minute. For an empty aircraft, that altitude is 49,100 ft. For the “High Altitude” mission with 10,000 lbs of bombs (i.e. one nuclear weapon) the service ceiling is 44,600 ft. After a long flight, the aircraft will probably drift up to ~46,000 ft.

Its maximum dry top was 15 500 meters.
Exactly as much as Mig-15.
But problam that the dry B-36 would not fly for bomb mission. SO the Real altitude during the bombing raids would be much lesser , no more 10-11000 meters.
So even Me-262 HGIII can intercept if effectively for sure.

The “service ceiling” of the Me-262 is ~37,500 ft, meaning that the Me-262 will be unable to get within 3km vertically of the B-36.
The speed advantage isn’t even all that big (730 km/hr versus 870 km/hr) meaning that the Me-262 can only realistically attack from behind, and even then has to get reasonably close for a successful intercept. Maximum range of the Me-262 is ~1000km, but that is at cruising speed. Allowing for fuel burn in the climb and the higher fuel burn at high speed, that means that even if a B-36 was dumb enough (or has a mechanical issue - loss of pressurisation for instance) to descend into intercept range the Me-262 needs to be based within ~100km of the B-36 flightpath to have a hope of intercepting it.

But you are forgetting the few things.
Firstly the ONE B-36 costs as much as probably 20 Me-262. SO Even if germans would have build the 5 Me-262 per one single American B-36 - is have no much a chances to reach the Targets over GErmany.
Secondary- although the American would start to use the B-36 since 1947-48, they STILL would HAVE NO proper long range Jet fighters that can escort the B-36 amrades in such altitude so long time:)
This is mean that the B-36 would have meet the armades of Germans Jet fighters ALONE.
What can happend we saw in Korea in 1951.
Germans can distribute the thousands of jet fighters along possble ways of Bombers- thay can prepare a hundreds excellent airfield on its territory for it.

#59

There is just a suggestion that the RB-36 just a few times has reach the Soviet territory( probably over far areas of Syberia) . No facts , however , of it have not been founded. Even in Wiki.
It was probably just Recognision modification of B-36 that carry nothing more heavy than the hight-resolution Photo-Camera.
Indeed the Bomb loaded B-36 can be intercepted even by the Mig-15.
Anyway its service time was VERY short- already in the mid 1951 the Mig-17 is going on the serial production. So any fly on the B-36 to the Soviet territory since 1951 were very danger for the crew.
S

#60

Um, US and British piston-engined fighters would have swarmed Luftwaffe aerodromes to attack the Me-262s when they were most vulnerable: on take-off and landing. Part of the reason that German jets were never really all that effective at the US bomber offensive…