<shrugs> A problem does exist, but it isn’t nearly as bad as it’s cracked up to be. Of the three British muslims I know personally, two are in the Army and the third is gay…
I dont know what is shrugs but aniway the problem is worring , and you are worried too despite that “nothing happen” face you are trying to make right know.
Cautious, rather than worried. 20 years ago I would have done exactly the same thing, but the threat then was the IRA rather than Jihadis.
We aren’t worried about litter bin bombs in the UK, but go to any train station and you’ll never see a bin. There’s a difference between stupidity and fear - one you and your country have thankfully never had to learn.
All problems are worrying.
I’ve lived the majority of my life under the low level threat of terrorism. Since the early 70’s the threat of a terrorist attack has been ever present, only the direction the threat comes from has changed.
During the time of the ‘Troubles’( the name given to the conflict between the IRA and Britain) the British government never discriminated against the Irish or Catholic population living on the British mainland due to the terrorist threat, so I don’t see why we should discriminate against any Muslims living here. It will only drive more Muslims into the hands of the terrorists
Redcoat your point is a good one and well made, I certainly would not suggest that Muslims should be discriminated against. What I do find objectionable is when subsections of Muslim or other minority groups are allowed to behave in a manner which would never be allowed and rightly so, for the majority community. Furthermore, allowing such exemptions for minority groups is initself a form of discrimination against such minority groups in that it distorts and degrades their legitimate community values and norms and causes their communities to fall in to the grip of careerists, criminals and political extremists. In respect of Sinn Fein PIRA, that organization is extremely left wing and the Vatican as an organization is somewhat to the right of Margaret Thatcher and the Pope most certainly was not issuing papal bulls endorsing the killing of British soldiers and the bombing of British towns by Sinn Fein PIRA, furthermore the chances of Sinn Fein PIRA ever having seriously considered detonating a 10 kilotonne nuclear warhead in central London would be just a zero, so it can be dangerous to read too much similarity in to the Sinn Fein PIRA Catholics and Al-Qaeda Muslims comparison.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
well put
G
Fascinating Video that gives an new insight in to Islam the religion of peace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSDjQtPWIps
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Muslims, like all the rest of us, are human beings. Islam is a religion with a lot of good to it but like all religions it is hampered by those who practise it, ie, humans again. Take a look at the Christian Reconstructionists, ie. Dominionists, the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, the nationalist Hindus. This is not a Islamic problem, this is a human one.
Well that sounds like a silly argument to me, there are few people in the World if any, that really know what the noble Koran says and they probably would disagree amongst themselves anyway. At a practical level for non-Muslims, the Koran is what Muslims make of it and too many Muslims have decided that it instructs them to wage a holy War without mercy, until the entire World belongs to Islam. Now, this is most certainly a human problem, in that unless one believes in the supernatural and I don’t, Muslims are human beings but then one could say Germans in Hitler’s Third Reich espousing Nazism was a human problem. [ NB I am not suggesting Islam = Nazism, though I would argue that some variants of Islam are pretty close to Nazism ]. But to go on from that to state:
“This is not a Islamic problem, this is a human one.”
is in my opinion, quite idiotic. If Muslims are murdering people in the name of Islam that is an Islam problem. Whether such activity as the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center is legitimate according to Islam, I personally do not believe it is, but I could be wrong and the people in the World Trade Center are just as dead either way.
Pat Condel The Religion of Fear
http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=W3_qelW5qp4
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Adrian Wainer said:
Well that sounds like a silly argument to me, there are few people in the World if any, that really know what the noble Koran says and they probably would disagree amongst themselves anyway.
I have studied both Islam and the Qur’an for around 25 years.
At a practical level for non-Muslims, the Koran is what Muslims make of it and too many Muslims have decided that it instructs them to wage a holy War without mercy, until the entire World belongs to Islam.
Except that this ‘understanding’ of the Qur’an is one limited to fundamentalists among Muslims. It is the provenance of the Wahabbiyyah and the Saliffiyah, not the great majority of Muslims.
Now, this is most certainly a human problem, in that unless one believes in the supernatural and I don’t, Muslims are human beings but then one could say Germans in Hitler’s Third Reich espousing Nazism was a human problem. [ NB I am not suggesting Islam = Nazism, though I would argue that some variants of Islams are pretty close to Nazism ]. But to go on from that to state:
“This is not a Islamic problem, this is a human one.”
is in my opinion, quite idiotic. If Muslims are murdering people in the name of Islam that is an Islam problem.
My point is this, the ones doing the murdering are not the average Muslim but share with Christian Reconstructionists, the Ultra-Orthodox among the Jews and Hindu Extremists the attitude that they and THEY ALONE understand what God requires of them. This is a human problem, it is not the provenance of a particular religion.
Whether such activity as the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center is legitimate according to Islam, I personally do not believe it is, but I could be wrong and the people in the World Trade Center are just as dead either way.
The 11 Sept attacks were not legitimate in Islam, Islam does not punish the innocent for the actions of others.
It all depends upon one’s standpoint.
The case can just as easily be made against Christianity by substituting Christian descriptors and the aims of the fundamentalist Christian groups most supportive of Bush for the Islamic ones given in Adrian Wainer’s post, as I’ve done with his quoted post below. As the subseqent quotes, along with much other evidence of Bush’s and American Christian fundamentalist belief, show, each side is as bad as the other in its arrogant belief that it is on a mission from God. Who, oddly enough, happens to be the same violent (and in my view vile) old testmanent god of wrath and vengeance both sides supposedly worship, which is entirely consistent with the many religious wars fought by various sects within both Christianity and Islam. :rolleyes:
Why shouldn’t some Muslims believe they are being targeted by Christians when that’s exactly what Bush & Co have said?
George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.
Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: “President Bush said to all of us: ‘I am driven with a mission from God’. God would tell me, ‘George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan’. And I did. And then God would tell me ‘George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq’. And I did.”
Mr Bush went on: “And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East’. And, by God, I’m gonna do it.”
Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact which brings him much support in middle America.
Soon after, the Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz carried a Palestinian transcript of the meeting, containing a version of Mr Bush’s remarks. But the Palestinian delegation was reluctant publicly to acknowledge its authenticity.
The BBC persuaded Mr Shaath to go on the record for the first time for a three-part series on Israeli-Palestinian diplomacy: Elusive Peace, which begins on Monday.
Religion also surfaced as an issue when Mr Bush and Tony Blair were reported to have prayed together in 2002 at his ranch at Crawford, Texas - the summit at which the invasion of Iraq was agreed in principle. Mr Blair has consistently refused to admit or deny the claim.
Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, who was also part of the delegation at Sharm el-Sheikh, told the BBC programme that Mr Bush had said: “I have a moral and religious obligation. I must get you a Palestinian state. And I will.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
General Casts War in Religious Terms
By Richard T. Cooper
October 16, 2003 in print edition A-1The Pentagon has assigned the task of tracking down and eliminating Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and other high-profile targets to an Army general who sees the war on terrorism as a clash between Judeo-Christian values and Satan.
Lt. Gen. William G. “Jerry” Boykin, the new deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence, is a much-decorated and twice-wounded veteran of covert military operations. From the bloody 1993 clash with Muslim warlords in Somalia chronicled in “Black Hawk Down” and the hunt for Colombian drug czar Pablo Escobar to the ill-fated attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980, Boykin was in the thick of things.
Yet the former commander and 13-year veteran of the Army’s top-secret Delta Force is also an outspoken evangelical Christian who appeared in dress uniform and polished jump boots before a religious group in Oregon in June to declare that radical Islamists hated the United States “because we’re a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian
Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, “I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.”
“We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this,” Boykin said last year.
On at least one occasion, in Sandy, Ore., in June, Boykin said of President Bush: “He’s in the White House because God put him there."
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/oct/16/nation/na-general16
If people read the New Testmanent properly, which is the only source of Christ’s word, and if Muslims read the Koran (and hadith) properly, (to the the extent that either Christians or Muslims can rely on these texts written after Christ and Mohammed had died and passed down largely by oral tradition) they would find that the overwhelming message in both is one of peace, tolerance and love of mankind.
Or the opposite, if that’s what they’re looking for in selective interpretations rather than the general thrust of the teachings.
My apology, I misunderstood the point that you were making, I had thought you were on a “Islam is the religion of peace hobby horse”, I would presume your position on Islam would not be radically different from my own.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Agreed.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
As we’re agreed that violent people can find what they want in the the texts of any religion, doesn’t this reinforce kiwimac’s point that the problem is human rather than religious?
It strikes me as being rather like communisim, which the West held up for about three quarters of a century as the devil’s work, when in practice in countries where communism became the dominant political force it was more or less a people’s movement allied with elements of nationalism, anti-monarchism and other anti-establishment aspects which overthrew a corrupt elite, where the new people’s government usually demonstrated its morally unchallengeable right to rule by replacing the corrupt elite with another but, fortunately and acceptably, communist corrupt elite. :rolleyes:)
Yes, agreed people can find what they want to find in most religious texts, pretty much regardless of what might be in those texts and unless one believes in supernatural entities, which I do not, anything which is done in the name of religion has to be done by people. Well in that sense, it is a human problem but when people who call themselves Muslims murder in the name of Islam I call it an Islam problem, to say it is a human problem is merely subtracting one word which is relevant with qualifications as in the term “Islam problem” with another world as in term “human problem” which has no descriptive use, whatsoever. e.g. if the Human race shared the planet with intelligent rabbits and the rabbit Muslims were all very peaceable and friendly and human Muslims had flown the aircraft in to the World trade center on 9/11 and the rabbit Muslims had condemned it, well it might make sense then to describe the situation as a “human problem” but there is not anything like that in reality.
I can’t really figure out what you are trying to say there, so I can’t offer a response.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Hi Adrian,
You are right at some extent.
But if shes entoxicated and out conicous and he ask for sex and she mumbles thats actually rape cause shes not likey to speak for her self.
Guys do that all the time ,they pick up really entoxicated women and that gives them more of a chance of getting consentral sex with her without her knowing she said yes.
Cheers
I would think he takes a far less conspiratorial, and far more realistic, view than you do…
There are several silly post here but I guess the one by kiwimac gets the prices for being the number one.
You said that you study the book 25 years ?
are you sure that your portrait does not look something like that ?
Ah come off the stage Panzerknacker, there are plenty of people who have studied the Koran and the Hadiths for longer than that and they are neither Muslims nor sympathetic to Islamofascism, furthermore I presume the implication is that because this guy is dressed the way he is and has the ethnicity he has, he is some sort of maniac Islamist. Well he could be both a Muslim and very nice person, so he dresses differently to Westerners, so what, those sort of clothes are suitable to the place where he lives.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
I dont know what stage you are talking about, fortunately New Zealand is far enough ; I wont like to have a guy who studied 25 years in a row that poisonous book as neighbour.
In any case I dont care what the book said, the important fact is what the muslim DO…that is the fact that worried me.
So what do the ones you know do?