Sorry but I dont get into that kind of games, if you live in England you must have some ideas what the muslims do.
Sorry about using the phrase “get off the stage” because it has a special meaning, it means somebody is being theatratical and should come down from the stage and start acting in a normal fashion, ( it wasn’t fair of me, to use that phrase as only a person who had spent time in Britain would understand it, some my apology on that issue ) I don’t think there is an exact Spanish equivalent, there is the following but it appears to have a disimilar meaning, ie somebody who refuses to leave their position though their time is completed.
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/government_politics/1963662-bajará_de_la_tarima.html
Re the Koran, just because a person reads a book, it does not mean they agree with it, to automatically assume that, would be childish.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
1994 AIMA Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_AMIA_bombing
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
No worries, now I understand. But i am not in any act, is my way of thinking and writing, probably may look corrosive for some people that is not used to spoke out his mind I know, but always completely sincere about my feelings and opinions.
Re the Koran, just because a person reads a book, it does not mean they agree with it, to automatically assume that, would be childish.
Well, let me do a simple association game here. If somebody read a book for 25 years is because he find something appealing on it.
Would anybody read a book that doesnt like for that many time ?
I dont think so. If you find something appealing is because you like what you saw in that, if you like what you saw is because you agree with its teachings ( at list part of it). If he is influenced by that kind of reading…I dont want him close.
Thank you for remembering the AMIA bombing, dont forget about the 1992 Israel embassy bombings. Those lovely iranians…and still the people ask me why I dont like muslims.:rolleyes:
Indeed. I know several personally - having shared a house with one and a shell scrape with another - and I don’t at all recognise them when reading your posts. Frankly, you appear to be totally out of touch with reality in this matter.
It would be more accurate to refer to what some Muslims do.
The jihadists have hijacked Islam to their own purposes, but that doesn’t mean that all Muslims agree with them. Not least because many of the jihadists regard many or most other Muslims as their enemy, notably bin Laden’s desire to bring down the House of Saud in Saudi Arabia (which shows he’s not all bad ;)) because it has defiled the Islamic Holy Land by allowing American troops in, among other things. And Muslims are by far the largest number of victims of the jihadists in Iraq.
One might as well, for example, condemn the Catholic Church because of the actions of the Pavelic government of Croatia during WWII and the violent religious crusade by the Catholic Ustasha against the Jews and Serbs, in which the Catholic Church participated. Or condemn all Catholics, and all Irish people, around the world because of the campaign of bombings by the Catholic aligned IRA in Britain.
I cannot abide primitive Muslim conduct and sentiments of the sort provoked by the Danish cartoons, but equally I cannot abide other fanatical adherents of a belief system which, for example, results in anti-abortionists bombing abortion clinics and killing people they believe are associated with them and animal rights extremists bombing the property of people they believe are associated with their version of animal cruelty.
The problem is not the belief system but the arrogance which it engenders in some people to allow them to think that theirs is the one true way and that this entitles them to harm others to protect or pursue their beliefs. Islam doesn’t have a monopoly on that sort of arrogance.
Why would somebody read the Koran for 25 years, well for a start, the Catholic Church has communities all over the World including in majority Muslim countries. Furthermore, Islam pursues a highly pro-active policy of encouraging non-Muslims including Catholics to become Muslim through such methods as personal contact, publications, websites, etc, etc. It also employs some rather nasty methodology such as kidnapping Christian girls who are members of Christian communities in Muslim countries, raping them and forcing them to marry Muslims. In the light of that, the Catholic Church would be quite simply stupid, if they do not devote a considerable amount of time to reading the noble Koran for amongst other reasons to be best able to defend the legitimate interests of the Catholic Church.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wVgmJ5BXUuM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wVgmJ5BXUuM
Re the above package reporting on Latino-Americans converting to Islam, it is to the best of my knowledge a report screened on the French State English language satellite television station, well just what one would expect from anything connected with the French state.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=haZYrancc0s
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Panzerknacker,
You make a number of mistaken assumptions in your post. I have doctoral degrees in Comparative religion and in Christian Theology. I have studied the Qur’an because by that I can understand the POV of another religion, of another folk. I have also, incidentally, studied Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, the Babi & Baha’i faiths, I have studied the LDS / Restoration Movement in the US.
You study because you wish to learn, I have sympathy for the moderate Muslims (who are, BTW, the great majority) who have had their religion’s public Image hijacked (forgive the pun!) by the Wahabbis and the Salafi’s. Islam has been a fortress for other faiths, many of the great muslim leaders made their realsm into places of learning and art.
We do no service to anyone by focusing on only one aspect (and a minority one at that) of a group such as Islam.
Not necessarily.
I’ve read various religious texts over a longer period trying to understand why people who find them appealing and a source of eternal truth find them appealing and source of eternal truth.
Peope study Marx and Hitler’s writings not because they find something appealing in them but because they are trying to understand what is behind communism and Nazism.
Anyway, what’s wrong with studying the Koran for even a lifetime and finding it appealing? Christians and Jews do the same with their religious texts, which are just as full of exhortations to violence and, in my view, arrant nonsense as anything in the Koran and Islamic texts.
Well said and agreed. One question though I have seen the accusation made that Wahabists claim to be Salafis but aren’t, what are your views on that?
The governor and qadi of al-Uyayna, Uthman ibn Muammar, was initially sympathetic to Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab’s preaching,. To cement his links with the oasis and prevent another Hurailima-like scandal from happening here, Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab married Uthman’s paternal aunt, al-Jauhara. This was the first in a series of political marriages he would make to seal whatever tenuous alliances could be solicited in the Najd. In his lifetime, he married a total of 20 wives (taking care not to exceed 4 at a time, of course) who furnished him with 18 children.
Uthman ibn Muammar’s indifference, however, came to be sorely tested when Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab dragged a woman accused of adultery out into a public square and stoned her to death. Some report that he had, in fact, used a heavy boulder to crush her head. The action triggered widespread fury.
Non-Muslims would profess puzzlement at the villagers’ reaction. Does Islam, like Judaism, not condemn all adulterers to death by stoning?
The perception is true, but there is a caveat. Umar ibn Khattab, one of Prophet Muhammad’s close companions and a Rightly-Guided Caliph, is said to have caught a couple engaging in adulterous sex. The Quranic punishment for such behavior was indeed death by stoning, but Ali, another companion, reminded Umar that no fewer than four witnesses are required to certify guilt for such an accusation, and that if he acted without such testimony, he himself would sin. Umar abided by Ali’s advice and pardoned the couple. It must be noted here that although Umar- whose very shadow the devil was said to run away from- had witnessed the act, he had no authority to suspend Quranic laws.
Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab’s behavior was made worse by the fact that he was not recognized as al-Uyayna’s qadi, which was Uthman’s position. At best, the woman’s death was a product of vigilante justice, which flies completely in the face of Islam. In his book, the “The Eternal Message of Muhammad”, the late Abdul Rahman Azzam stated that an ulema “should be of mature age and a man of wisdom, enjoy popular support and be a person who draws on the…counsel of the natural leaders. But if he disobeys the commands of God and disregards the interests of the people, he will be repudiated.”
http://www.higher-criticism.com/2005/09/muhammad-ibn-abdul-wahhab_19.html
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Yes for sure you are right.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Well said and agreed, though I have my doubts that the relationship between Osama bin Laden and the Saudi regime is quite as you describe it to be.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
I confined myself to a few words on that point so it’s not a comprehensive description, but how would you describe it?
Quite simply I do not know what is al-Qaeda’s relationship with the Saudi Royal family and the wider power-structure in Saudi Arabia. I am sure Britain’s MI6 and the USA’s CIA do have a good idea, but they are hardly disinterested parties in respect of what they might say in the public arena given the close relationship between the British and American Governments with Saudi Arabia.
Undercover Mosque the return
Part 1 of 5
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NOIYkLWY4Fc
Part 2 of 5
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=j21OSS5G39k
Part 3 of 5
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bcd5jcxCRCA
Part 4 of 5
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fd2atmHJQN4
Part 5 of 5
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lsg2UDnC6Y4
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
As far as I’m aware, the only relationship bin Laden & Co have with the Sauds is dictating to them the terms acceptable to bin Laden & Co of restoring Saudi Arabia to bin Laden & Co’s approved version of Islam.
The violations (of Islamic Laws as mandated by Allah) that were committed by the ruling body have gone beyond the most serious sins (Sheikh Bin Laden is referring to the seven most serious sins here); those violations are clearly in the categories that knock the offender completely out of the fold of Islam. They (the rulers) have oppressed and humiliate people, have made a mockery of their intellect, and have mismanaged the state’s wealth. Nowadays, millions are suffering from poverty in order for millions of SR’s (Saudi Riyal, the currency used in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) to go into the bank accounts of members of the ruling family. In addition, public services have become poor, land and other properties have been taken away from rightful owners by force, members of the ruling family have appointed themselves, by force, as business partners with business owners without their consent, and many other violations have been the trademark of this ruling family. The rulers have gone beyond that when they committed the kind of violation that puts them out of the fold of Islam; allying themselves with the Kufr system of America and siding with, providing aid and supporting the infidel Americans against the Muslims were the acts which sealed the fate of this ruling body. They have become apostates. The ruling body has made itself a partner with Allah by making up laws and Fatwa’s (legal rulings) to legitimize whatever they want to make legal and to forbid whatever they want to forbid, irrespective of Allah’s commands.
This one violation (alliance with the infidels), is one of the ten violations that knock the offender out of the fold of Islam.
For more on the vast array of violations committed by the ruling family, please refer to our communiqué # 17. Correcting the mistakes is not hard at all if the ruler is willing and capable of doing what it takes to bring about the needed change. Furthermore, to make corrections, the ruler need not invent any solutions, but all he needs is going back to Allah’s religion; Islam that is. As to us, Allah knows that we want nothing but changing course so that internal and external policies are crafted according to what Allah and his messenger mandated.
http://www.jihadunspun.com/BinLadensNetwork/statements/rulers.html
Indeed. I know several personally - having shared a house with one and a shell scrape with another - and I don’t at all recognise them when reading your posts. Frankly, you appear to be totally out of touch with reality in this matter.
I can assure you that the smell of the dead corpses roting between the remains of a terrorist attacked building, the people screaming and runing from a place to another without idea what to do, were pretty much real in Buenos Aires in 1992 and 1994. Maybe is not the big picture but that is what is engraved in the mind of the population.
But aniway if you think everybody is nice people…wathever, maybe you just need another blast shaking London to wake up.
To the othe people I must day: good posting, only that the majority of the muslim are pretty much influenced by the minority, the majority of the european muslims seems to be maleable as the children clay.
Why they would attack their fellow countrymen if they dont are influenced ?
Happen in UK, happen in Spain, and probably will happen again.
An issue is how much difference is there between the version of Islam promoted by the Saudi establishment and that promoted by al-Qaeda. Now, I am not saying they are exactly the same and even if they were exactly the same, [ which they are not ], it could happen al-Qaeda and the Saudi establishment would be bitter enemies for the reason that would be in competition with one another. The problem for the West is that regardless of whether the Saudi establishment is in an alliance with al-Qaeda or implacable enemies of al-Qaeda or somewhere in-between, the Wahabi ideology and the financial backing for that ideology, which is being authorized by the Saudi establishment is corrosive to the peace and security of Western societies, when that ideology is imported in to Western states.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
So a handful of nutters commit some pretty minor terrorist attacks, and suddenly a billion people are out to get you and need to be stopped? You’re on another planet with this one mate.
Wouldn’t be the first one. I suppose if the casualties go past 10,000 a year we might start “waking up”, certainly we’ve never let casualties from bombing below that level influence national policy before. When you do, you become (like Spain and Italy) a first class target for any nutter with an agenda and the willingness to cause casualties.
Uh huh. So suddenly you’re an expert on the behaviour of a group of people of whom you’ve never even met a single representative?
Overwhelmingly, the answer is that they don’t, but of course that doesn’t fit in neatly with your agenda of “I want a dictatorship with me in power”. An alternative that you may find more to your taste is that those who carry out the attacks are mentally subnormal - for instance the latest wannabe suicide bomber (who managed to blow his trousers off in a toilet in a cafe in Exeter last year and is currently on trial) had been in and out of mental health care for quite some time before he carried out the “attack”, and could charitably be described as “not very bright”.
Argentina has previously attacked the Falklands, causing far more casualties than the combined figure due to enemy action for Iraq, Afghanistan and the London bombings. That makes Argentineans about 500 times more dangerous on a per capita basis than muslims. Sounds like a pre-emptive nuking is in order!
Agreed.
Yet we back the Saudis, because they have oil and are committed to US dollar payments for it.
And we won’t attack them, because of the outrage that attacking the Muslim Holy Land would provoke.
Yet we allow them to export their extreme form of Islam to our countries, in overt and covert fashions.
The Saudis lead a charmed life poised between oil and Mecca / Medina, but sooner or later someone is going to go after one of them. After that, who knows?