It is interesting that Sheik Hisham Kabbani says in a conversation with a journalist in a video I have seen, that for the Saudi establishment they have created something in the shape of Wahabism, that they have now lost control of and can’t row back on because people would ask, what were you doing telling us lies. Really, whilst it is entirely possible there are links between some elements of the Saudi establishment [ and by the term “Saudi establishment” I would include not only the Royal family but the very large Saudi religious establishment ] and al-Qaeda, I think al-Qaeda is actually independent of the Saudi Royal Family in the sense he [ i.e. Osama bin Laden ] has caused them a problem, in that I presume part of the attraction for the Saudi Royal Family of Wahabism as a political tool was, ( until the emergence of al-Qaeda ), nobody could accuse them of advocating a soft form of Islam. Unfortunately with Islam over the last century there seems to be a dynamic, to push it to an ever more extreme form, and Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda is an example of that trend. Frankly, I am surprized that nobody has accused bin-laden of being inleague with the great Satan for not exploding a nuclear weapon in New York.
You still don’t get that the stakes are much higher than a mere body count. We’re in a struggle of ideology, democracy and enlightenment are just as much threatened as they were when my ancestors marched across europe 70 years ago and not by radicals, but by all muslims, they don’t even need to be particularly devout. Difference is there is not enough violence involved yet for the appeasers to wake up.
If an art exposition or opera needs to be canceled here in my country because muslims (and only they) feel offended (what a surprise) than this is far more than I am willing to tolerate. When they’re offended they need to go, they’re no longer welcome here, simple as that.
Gee, I thought Germany had freedom of religion and freedom of expression built into its constitution?. I know Canada does. That is what makes our country great; the ability to accommodate and accept people. The Jews weren’t welcome either in the 1930’s. Are you suggesting that muslims (who were probably born on German soil in the first place, and pay German taxes and contribute to German society), are not welcome on the soil they are or aren’t born on, just because your opinion on weather or not an opera is offensive to you or them? So what if their ideals are different from mainstream Germany. Do we stomp them out just like Hitler did with the Jews, just because they are different?
I and others are offended in Canada by rich Chinese who speak their wing wong language so loud and annoying on the subway and wish they would piss off, but do we go around kicking them out of the country?. I personally hate the dam annoying American accents from people of New York so maybe we should close the border so they don’t visit Canada? Respect and understanding of each others culture and perhaps religion, would be more of a better way of going about things. We all have prejudices but the constitution protects the minority against the abrupt actions of the majority, for a reason. Instead of bashing one’s religion and complaining weather or not they should wear the hijab in our schools or buses, why don’t we just repect them as being different as we are all different as human beings
Your ideology is not being threatened. You are insecure and don’t take the trouble to respect what is part of life on this planet. If you can’t tolerate muslim religious beliefs then maybe you should start reading the bible and learn what it says about accommodation and what the constitution say’s about it as well. It is your type of opinions that started fascism and KKK type of behaviour. I would think as a German (assuming your based in Germany, that the concept of acceptance and tolerance and respect for one another would have been taught more than ordinary, considering the faith of the Jews based on history and the actions that history followed.
If that’s actually happening, then that is clearly the fault of the spineless society you live in rather than muslims in general.
That has not happened in the UK on any noticeable scale. The last two artistic productions (Jerry Springer - the Opera in 2003 and Behzti in 2004) to be disrupted by faith groups were attacked by Christians and Sikhs respectively. Jerry Springer the Opera was unaffected, while Behzti closed after a short period of time and experienced a riot on the opening night.
I was going to wax long and hard about that and then thought to check Wikipedia and found my lengthy comments summed up neatly as follows:
The terms “Wahhabism” and “Salafism” are often used interchangeably. Wahhabism has been called a “belittling” term for Salafi,[12] while another source defines it as “a particular orientation within Salafism,”[8] an orientation some consider ultra-conservative.[13][14]
Scholar Trevor Stanley states that while the origins of Wahhabism and Salafism “were quite distinct” - “Wahhabism was a pared-down Islam that rejected modern influences, while Salafism sought to reconcile Islam with modernism” - they both shared a rejection of “traditional teachings on Islam in favor of direct, ‘fundamentalist’ reinterpretation.”
But despite their beginnings “as two distinct movements”, the migration of Muslim Brotherhood members from Egypt to Saudi Arabia and Saudi King Faisal’s
embrace of Salafi pan-Islamism resulted in cross-pollination between ibn Abd al-Wahhab’s teachings on tawhid, shirk and bid‘ah and Salafi interpretations of ahadith (the sayings of Muhammad).[15]
It does and if the muslims would actually keep religion where it belongs, in the private sphere, no one would have a problem. But until there can be a muslim version of life of brian without people being killed they won’t be welcome here by me.
The jews were germans, they lived here for more than thousand years. Those two groups and situations are so different that you cannot draw conclusions from the one for the other.
And you simply can’t compare Canada, Australia or the US to any European Nation when it comes to immigration, since the whole self conception of both the immigrating and absorbing societies are vastly different. Immigrants to classical immigrant nations know they start out the same as the others, so do the others. But you can already see that attitude changing for example in the southwest US. It’s a natural development, only takes a couple of generations.
If only they would pay taxes. The net result of that particular immigration for the german society is deeply in the red and always has been.
I don’t care whether or not it’s offensive, that’s what art sometimes does and needs to do, it provokes.
Mainstream germany is pretty heterogenous, there is however a certain framework everyone needs to fit in. The muslims want to change that framework (though they only admit that behind closed doors, as several reports from our intelligence agencies indicate).
Funny, since this is what the muslims try to do. They don’t like that people in our western civilization can and do make fun of religion, including theirs. Their reaction: violence on all levels.
This answer is simple, respect is a two way street, thus most muslims don’t really qualify for mine, particularly those I talked about in the last post. They obviously don’t respect my societies standards, otherwise they wouldn’t threaten with violence.
My own ideology not, the society for which this ideology is a framework however is and with it its original inhabitants.
I don’t care what anyone believes as long as he doesn’t think he can come to my house and redecorate as he sees fit.
European history is one long violent struggle for homogenous societies, since they tend to work better in hard times.
You should check the definition of tolerance. In the long run it is a pretty unhealthy idea to build a society on.
Your argument about the Jews has some flaws. The pre WW2 German Jewish community was in the main very well intergrated and instutional anti-semitism was very much more an Austrian problem than a German one. There is a not insignificant connection between present day Islamofascism and Hitlerian Nazism. Furthermore in France, where Islamofascism has found a relatively more welcoming environment than Germany, many French Jews are deciding the risks of staying on in an increasingly Islamized France simply are not worth it and are emigrating.
Britain, like France, has a long tradition of hosting people who are renegades in their own country and or in their host country.
Karl Mark researched and wrote much of Das Kapital in the British Library in London, after spending time in Paris with other radicals.
Move forward about one and half centuries and Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person convicted of any offences related to 9/11, also studied his cause in the British Library.
It is the freedoms and tolerance which Britain grants to people hostile to its values, like those intolerant religious primitives in the photo, which distinguishes Britain from them and the societies from which they came, often to escape repressive political and or religious regimes which denied them the freedom to do exactly what they’re doing in the photo in Britain.
It might be news to you but incitement to murder was a criminal offence in British law at the time Karl Marx was a resident in the United Kingdom and still remains a criminal offence.
As indeed several of the people in that photo found out - a jury was less than convinced at their claims they were just joking and they ended up being jailed for a couple of years each
Meanwhile, the civil war in sweden and denmark has already begun, as I predict it to happen all over europe within ten years. It’s called “gang war” but I sincerely doubt normal criminal gangs mulitply their numbers so massively in half a year without something major going on.
Given Israel’s continually harsh and oppressive conduct towards the Palestinians since (and before) Israel was established and its remorseless expanionism in the settlements, I don’t blame Muslims for supporting the largely Islamic Palestinians.
Equally, I have contempt for the Islamic nations around Israel which have refused succour for the poor bloody Palestinians for over 60 years.
The best solution is for the rest of the world, primarily America which is the major actor continually buggering up that picture because of crazy American internal religious politics, to adopt a hands-off policy and let the Middle East descend into a bloodbath. After all, it won’t be much different from the savagery which typifies much of the rest of that part of the world.
When that’s over the rest of the world can deal with the result.
Hell yeah, let’s get it over with, the jews get their living space and can no longer point fingers at us. :roll:
But do you sincerely believe this would solve the fundamental problems western (or any, for that matter) civilization has with muslims? I doubt it. Poor buddhists are getting their heads chopped off in thailand as well and they have nothing to do with that matter whatsoever. No, there is only one problem for each and every other society on this planet and my bet is sooner or later it will be dealt with accordingly. How you call into the forrest, so it calls back as they say here.
