The islam menace.

If I understand correctly, Drake is taking much more of a Bigot approach. He’s not afraid of a war against the Muslim nations, but rather of Islam as a religion and Culture.

He fears that if the European nations don’t act against the Muslims and their (pretty large scale) immigrations to Europe, they will come into their societies and slowly eat them up, until there is no more Christian European culture, only Islamic culture and traditions.

Partially I can understand where he’s coming from: Europeans are accepting more and more reductions to their tradition and culture in order to be more ‘politically correct’ towards Muslim immigrants, while at the same time, many of them accept none, and behave as if they were still back in their Muslim countries.

As an American, you might have a harder time understanding his point, as you guys seem to consider the Muslims as much more of a Foreign-Policy threat than a threat from the Interior in form of Immigrants. From a German - and by now generally European - viewpoint, there’s a much bigger fear of a loss of our old culture, induced by the two-hit punch of American culture from the one side, and Muslims (mainly Turks) from the other. The one overwhelms us with the sheer amount of advertisements and promotions (coupled with often superior quality), the other by sheer number of immigrants. At the same time, the people feel that the political elite is too far off the ground to realize the fundamental problem that many of the Turkish immigrants don’t feel like adapting, but rather had their surroundings adapt to them.

It’s a bit of stretch, but you can compare the Muslims to the African-Americans in a couple of ways. They have pretty much taken over the German Hip-Hop Culture, they make up a huge number of the Lower Class and they have, in some areas, pretty much created their own little ‘Ghettos’. Except nobody kidnapped them into our country and nobody enslaved them, they all came on their own.
The big difference is, however, that they - or at least a disappointingly high number of them - do not adopt the culture, values or religion of the nation they live in, but rather expect the nation to work towards theirs. Some of them even have the boldness to try to sue the countries for not working enough towards making their nation ‘Muslim-friendly’!

You even have Anti-German, Anti-French and/or Anti-English Protests (depending on the country) conducted by them every odd time, almost as if we had in fact enslaved them…

If you feel like taking the time, just try following English, French or German media [try Spiegel, they have an English-language version of their German news]. You’ll be surprised how many problems there actually are with immigrants compared to ‘The Melting Pot’ America.

As has been mentioned, certain portions of the immigrant population at primary, secondary and tertiary levels have an axe to grind against the laws & decisions of the country in which they reside.
That is their right as a citizen of that country, as long as their methods of complaining are in accordance with the laws as they stand.

I’ve never had a problem with whichever name people choose to refer to their particular deity or deities, nor in the manner in which they choose to revere Him, (or I suppose Her, if we’re to be inclusive,) as long as it does not affect others who are neither members of, nor wish to become, whichever religion is in question.

If someone’s religion dictates they hop from place to place wearing a pink lurex clownsuit, gold plated divers’ fins and a luminous leopardskin pickelhaube then that’s their own lookout, & it’s hardly for others to complain.

If however they decide to impinge on the rights of the rest of society or impose their religious views on them then they’re asking for trouble.
As I said above they’re free to speak their mind but there is a time and place for everything.

Strangely enough an incident occurred in Luton, Beds today where a homecoming parade was held for 2 Anglians and a large group of ‘uninformed’ people decided to hurl libellous and slanderous abuse at them.
Placards and shouted comments include, “Butchers of Basra,” “Terrorists,” and “21st century Nazis.”
One gentleman who had obviously completed quite rigorous research in the subject claimed, “They have killed, maimed and raped thousands of innocent people.”
They’ve been busy lads then, no wonder they’re home for a rest.

Link here.

We germans kicked their asses since 732 AD, nothing to worry about there :slight_smile:

I wouldn’t use the word fear and the only thing to be worried about is our politicians who enable the whole mess by their inordinate culture of political correctness.

He’ll come around there sooner or later. “American” muslims are as problematic to their free society (for example to free speech) as muslims in europe, they’re just not that plentiful and influential yet, only if you care to look for the signs. But it’s not as obvious as in europe yet.

Actually I consider the american culture a western culture just as the french or the spanish or the italian and we always had a healthy cultural exchange with those.

Not to mention they’re a financial drain to our society and boost the crime rates to the stratosphere. You give them the small finger and they rip out your arm, that’s the basic tenet of these folks and my bet is they’ll overplay until it gets really ugly.
People are getting really pissed and not just in germany, it happens everywhere in europe. If you lived here you could literally feel the subliminal tone shifting in conversations on the topic in the past couple of years, even with the many liberal/socialist/green people.

Yeah, I’m kinda clueless who to vote for in the upcoming elections…

On the one side, I don’t think the CDU is doing a good job at the moment, with Angela Merkel lacking any real authority, Steinmeier doing whatever the fuck he wants and our Minister of Defense rather endangering our soldiers’ lives by not giving them necessary equipment than admitting we’re in a war.

On the other side, I like Steinmeier, but I really, really dislike the SPD - If they manage to get back to power, you can be sure that the Immigration laws will be eased up again, and our already flawed social state will get even more tolerant towards social parasites.

FDP? They’re alright, but they aren’t anywhere near strong enough to govern on their own, which means that the CDU will probably use them as a partner again, and we’ll keep the same incompetent people.

Green Party? I’d rather get killed by Acid Rain than vote for those Tards…

Sorry for everybody not interested in German Politics, but that just had to get out :smiley:

As for the topic:

More like kept them at Bay. And it wasn’t only the Germans, it was the Holy Roman Empire (Czech Republic, Germany, Austria and Hungary) together with Italy and Spain, and occasionally the UK. So it was almost all of the European major powers that had to work together. The French had a tendency to fall into the HRE’s back whenever they were about to defeat the Ottomans…

I feel sorry for the soldiers, and I think it’s unacceptable from the Protesters side. It’s not like insulting the soldiers is going to change anything, except that some of the Protesters will go home with a black eye.

I don’t even wanna know how that stuff would have gotten out of hand in Germany. Actually, who knows, maybe that kind of stuff would help the Germans to learn to be proud of their soldiers and defend them.

In any case, these Muslim protesters have definitely done more harm to their cause than good, no doubt about it.

That’s why I think that despite our atrocities in ww2 we’re still not even close to even with them, from a mere karma point of view and if you look at history in the long run. Their executed parole of Brulez le palatinat, the 30 years war and their devious attacks while the rest of europe was fighting in vienna still has a whole lot of shit coming their way. :twisted:

Yeah… I dont’ think you should deal with that kind of stuff on a Karma level… Nazi Germany sure did a lot to catch up to that, though in one thing you’re right:

While the HRE and Italy pretty much constantly had their hands full with keeping the Ottomans out of Europe, the English, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese and French used that time to - for a lack of a better word - enslave the world.

Strangely enough an incident occurred in Luton, Beds today where a homecoming parade was held for 2 Anglians and a large group of ‘uninformed’ people decided to hurl libellous and slanderous abuse at them.
Placards and shouted comments include, “Butchers of Basra,” “Terrorists,” and “21st century Nazis.”
One gentleman who had obviously completed quite rigorous research in the subject claimed, “They have killed, maimed and raped thousands of innocent people.”
They’ve been busy lads then, no wonder they’re home for a rest.

Link here.

The enemy works from within chaps, Fallaci s article that I posted in the 2ND page of this topic talk about this point.

What a decease, the best cure is one of this:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m18-claymore.htm

You see that’s the whole problem. We of course have a large population of Muslims in the US. I live not far from a rather large enclave, Lackawanna, NY is a destination for Yemenis and has been for at least three decades now…

The problem you have is that there is no culture of the melting pot in Europe. In the US, the proverbial “melting pot” has real heat and America rigorously enforces and imposes political, and to a certain extent, social integration on its legal (and to an extent illegal) immigrants. There’s a reason why even second generation born of Muslims from the Middle East and Africa have a very staunch view of an Americanized, progressive 21st century Islam --and in Paris, they are almost walled off into inner-city enclaves that become pressure cookers of alienation, discord, and an almost social-incestuous social retardation of inwardness and narcissism…

I understand all too well. European gov’ts want to be progressive, open societies that require immigrant labor because of declining birthrates. But they have no political provisions on making a Turk “German” while a Turkish family could come to the United States and feel very American while acknowledging their Turkish heritage in a few short years to a generation…

So now we’re talking who came first or whose the rightful owner of the land are we?

i hate to go to this far but your statement leads me to ask you this… what are those Jewish doing in Palestine?,. for many centuries the land is belong to Philistine people,. not Jew, not Christian and not muslims,. but yest everybody can visit the place for their beliefs,…

and many europeans come to conquer faraway land in the name of God, Gold and Glory few centuries ago,. who imposed what to muslims or any other colonized countries?,. there are many uncounted numbers of crimes performed by your civilized people over colonized countries,. who the rightful owner of the land,.

You sounded so sure on history, but you like to skip things to fit your perception,.

if your ‘Perception’ is really true,. how can the rest of less than 20 mill non muslim still alive and well in the more the 200 mill muslim nation,. despite of the non-muslim nurmerous complaints over the islam practices in the countries,. ‘halal’ certification etc. YES those non-muslim were not chopped off for expressing their opinion in this country.

btw,. abt 70years ago,. it was perception created by one men that lead one nations to peform terrible things,… so many people were agreed that it was happening and not simply ‘perception’

Did you see the BBC footage of the parade protest? Quite frankly it was laughable about a dozen loonies (most of whom were hiding behind their placards) spouting ‘Allah Akhbar’ There were more rozzers guarding them than there was protesters. What a farce! In the end they had to be directed away to stop the crowd giving them the good news. Hardly newsworthy.

Just to prove another point about muslims in general and why the majority is considered just as much responsible by me as the stupid minority:
We have our own dozen loonies who occasionally protest. It’s the neonazis of the NPD and every single time they do so, there is a a counterdemonstration with at least 10 times as many people there. Inaction can make you just as guilty as action and this is why the muslims in general are a problem, cause deep down they don’t really mind what the more radical muslims are doing and trying to achieve. It would be their task to stand up against it, not ours, our ancestors already fought these battles in our society.

The last hate speech of the manics in the UK, I think is time that the Goverment to start do something.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160958/Now-Muslim-hate-preacher-mocks-British-troops-dead-comrade-shame-homecoming-protest.html

Equally true to the well reasoned point you make:
Saladin (forgive that I don’t attempt to set the name as closely to the Arabic as I perhaps ought, but I do here speak of the Saracen Ruler during the Crusade) himself gave the Order to eliminate the Hashishiim, a sect he considered to be both extremist, dangerous, and heretic. It was for the extremism Saladin issued the Fatwa against them.

I find it hard to see that modern Islam is incapable of policing it’s own extremists as and when it chooses to do so.
It may be that the moderates in Islam eventually do act against the extremists.
It may also be that the “west” or non-Islamic world has to excercise patience, absorb a few unpleasant blows/knocks/strikes and let Islam police itself.

Saladin is held to this day as an example of a fine and Honourable Musilm Ruler.
His memory is, as far as I know, respected by both Islamic and non-Islamic Scholars.
Perhaps the example he once set regarding extremism will be noted and acted upon, by moderate Islam itself.

Regards, Uyraell.

That assumes that Islam is a hierarchical and well organised religion like Christianity, as typified most by the Catholic Church.

But it isn’t, so there can’t be any policing.

Anyway, even if Islam was organised like the Catholic Church there would still be splinter groups, as there are in the Catholic Church, who are out of communion with the main body of the church while pursuing their own version of the religion.

If there is to be any significant change in Islam, I think it will come from the women when they demand and achieve equality with men which will undermine much of the medieval thinking and practices in some Islamic cultures. However, that is not really a revolution in Islam but a revolution in those cultures.

For example, every day I see Muslim women from different national and ethnic backgrounds and of varying degrees of observance of what is supposedly their religiously ordained dress code (which ranges from the slit showing the eyes with everything else covered to girls in jeans and blouses with scarves covering a little of their hair) driving cars. In Saudi Arabia they’d be in prison.

I don’t see any reason for patience and absorbing blows from the bastards who were responsible for 9/11, Bali, London, and Barcelona. In the total scheme of things they are utterly insignificant as military forces and operations. They are just crazy propaganda operations which fail to achieve an unstated objective by a group of delusionally violent religious fuckwits who have not the slightest prospect of defeating any Western nation they have in their sights.

Rather than absorbing their blows we should just hit back harder at their source, as we did by invading Afghanistan to root out the likes of bin Laden. Unlike Afghanistan, we should not use an army of occupation which is bound to fail against irregular forces but should go in, defeat, destroy, and get out. And the next time the bastards grow enough to be a problem we do it again.

Of course, we should also have done the same with Pakistan at the same time as we invaded Afghanistan instead of letting it switch sides when it realised that the Yanks were on the warpath against the bastards that Pakistan had supported, and still supports.

But we can always rely upon politicians to corrupt potentially successful military operations for political reasons. In which case there is no point to doing anything.

So what you are suggesting is military campaigns consisting entirely out of special operations, which move in, do their job, and leave before the rest realizes what the heck just happened?

In a way, that’s probably the most effective tactic against them, as it does not allow for Roadside Bombs, and gives the rebels a hard time creating the terrorist networks in areas of occupation as they do at the moment.

At the same time, there’s a flaw aside the obvious political ones:

All the civilians will see are the Special Operatives who run into a house, shoot some Muslims and leave again. They won’t be able to build up any connection to the western power or culture, they’ll only get to know them as killers. What better conditions for the recruitment of Anti-Western troops?

Also, it will allow the Taliban and other extremists to continue to control the population, as even if they have to fear the occasional military defeat when the forces arrive, whenever they aren’t there, they can do whatever they want. With a constant military presence, this is at least harder to achieve.

But again, as you said, it all comes back to politics. The politicians want to be able to distribute photos of smiling kids and women together with friendly soldiers. It’s called positive Propaganda, and it doesn’t work that well when there’s only ever the victims of the soldiers shown…

No, I’d run the Afghanistan invasion exactly as it was run with large scale forces, and partly to impress upon the population the scale and power of the forces arrayed against them. But it would be a raid rather than a conquest.

After destroying the enemy as much as possible, I’d just bug out after a month or two and leave the place to fester again, but without incurring any of the human, logistical or public relations costs at home of staying there.

Look at it this way. Let’s say you have a problem with ants coming into your house. Do you destroy their nest and then sit next to it for days, weeks, months or years while they rebuild it and crawl all over you and bite you in the process? Or do you just destroy the nest and go back inside your house and get on with life until you have a problem with ants again, when you destroy the nest again?

I’d exterminate them, but there’s a difference between extermination an nest of ants and a people…

There are legitimate arguments both for and against raiding versus clear and hold but it is just an all round bad idea, to start equating human beings to ants.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

I may have been guilty of an infelicitous analogy.

What I was getting at was not random extermination of everyone in an area as with an ants’ nest, but carrying out the initial crushing operation as happened in Afghanistan which then lasts for only a few months at most. That gets rid of a lot of the sources of trouble, being ants, without causing undue civilian, being non-ant, casualties.

Then the raiding forces bug out and leave the place to reconstruct their offensive capacity, whether ‘terrorist’ (whatever that means), insurgent, irregular, or regular. This avoids the remaining ants, being militarily active enemy of whatever type, crawling over the occupation forces.

If the ant forces resume their previous unacceptable practices, then there is another raid, bug out, future raid, etc etc until one side or the other gets sick of it. My money is on the side which is hopelessly militarily inferior getting sick of it first.

I don’t see the point of occupations and hearts and minds campaigns run by invaders when those things tie down relatively huge forces against relatively minor insurgent or irregular forces which inflict sufficient harm on the invader to reinforce opposition to the war and occupation in the invader’s home country. Then, like Vietnam, it becomes a media war and of the numbers of dead troops coming home to a country which does not fully support the war. And, like Vietnam, it becomes irrelevant whether or not the invader’s forces are winning militarily.

So, a huge and crushing raid makes a lot more sense from every angle than an equally huge and crushing invasion and occupation of indeterminate duration and cost, in lives and money, and of unlikely permanent success of a type acceptable to the invader.

Because it’s the occupation that drags down the invader, in the occupied country and at home. As demonstrated by the popularity of initial US military victories in Iraq and Afghanistan compared with the unwillingness of much of the US population to sustain the losses in the post-victory occupations which have no end in sight.