Oh my god.
Kato you continie to wonder me more and more.
Now the groups AK ( Polish home army) coloborated with Nazy:D ;)?
So you wish to say the AK was ally of Nazy in the Western Ukraine?
Well where are the our polish friends when they needed?
Gentlemens i see we going in the circle in this thread.
I think the other our members and guest who don’t know the details of the UPA history.
Let me to show you the some of the most rought political-propogandic mistakes about UPA, that nowadays come at surface.
1.The UPA ONLY fought for independent Ukraine.
This is false. the UPA was dominated in the only small part of Ukraine. The UPA regions were mainly Volun and Galicia with population and territory about 7-10% of whole Urrainian.
The most great partisan movenment that controlled the bigest part of forests Ukraine was the soviet partisan about 220 000 in the 1942-43.
After the liberation of the most part of Ukraine they simply joined to the regular army and continie fight with Nazy.
So claming the UPA ( who fight with both the soviet-ukrainian partisans and Red Army) fight for Ukraine is nonsence.They fight for its power in the "thiers’ regions.
The UPA that the number was about 35 -50 000 in 1944 is simply was not able to express the whole Ukraine’s will , especially in its central and Eastern-south parts.In those regions the influence of UPA was a ZERO.
To the contrast the soviet partisans were presented in the Volun and Galicia ( but they were in minority).
So as you could see the UPA was not a dominated partisan power in Ukraine so they could not pretend for the “fight for Ukraine”.
2.This is a “soviet one-side anti-UPA propoganda” about atrocities in Volun in the 1943-44.
This is a great mistake.
Indeed the soviets did not spread about polish henocide in the Volun.
They aimed not to cloud the official “Ukrainian-Polish socialistic slav- brotherhood”. They really told about UPA-OUN in negative sence , but ONLY as about nationalis-bandist who cruel killed the comminist Ukrain and NKVD.
Indeed the book like the Alexander Korman about crimes in Volun was under unofficial ban in both USSR and Comunist Poland till the Gorbachev. And even in the Soviet Urkaine Republic this theme was forbidden.
ONLY after downfall of communist we have learned the some of terrible details about UPA crimes in Volun.
Personaly me have learned about Volun quite accidentally in last year.
The lie about “soviet one-side propoganda” about slaughter in Volun and Galicia has no any real basis- the infor about this massacre was getting from the Polish, Czech and Ukrainian authors.
3. The UPA fought with the soviet cruel punutive mashine after the WW2…
This is a great exaggeration
As we have saw with the help of Kato the victims of NKVD and soviet soldiers were about 9 000 for all the period of war with the UPA. At that same period the victims of UPA were at least 60 000 of ukraininas who was loyal for the soviet.
As you could see this was not a war with the USSR but the CIVIL ukraine war.Whe re the UPA killed not as much the ‘soviets’ as the OWN ukrainian peoples.
4. The UPA did not kill the Ukraininas , becouse they lived here and this was a “their land”. The ONLY NKVD and soviet partisants killed ukraininas - this myth that has no relation with the reality.
Indeed as it wrote a great number of intenational historians who studied the the Henocide in the Volun there were a lot of cases when the UPA benderovtsy brutally killed a ukrainians together with its families members ONLY for that they was loyal or saved the polish children:
Victor Polishuk (wrote in his book):Моего отца о планируемом нападении предупредил знакомый украинец. Мы успели убежать в Кременец, а его, этого украинца, бандеровцы повесили посреди села и на груди прикрепили надпись: “За измену”.
transl…
About the planned attack familiar Ukrainian warned my father. We had time to run away into Kremenets, and this its, banderovtsy hung them in the middle villages and on the breast fastened the inscription: “for the treason”
…
And some of examples from the book of the U.Turovskij and V.Semashko “the crimes of ukrainian nationalists toward the polish population in the 1939-45”
http://www.br-sl.com/2002/10/i10-02-1-r.html— В ночь на 21.03.43 г. в Шумске убили двух украинцев — Ищука и Кравчука, которые помогали полякам;
— Апрель 1943 г., Белозерка. Эти же самые бандиты убили украинку Татьяну Миколик за то, что она имела с поляком ребенка;
— 5.05.43 г., Клепачев. Убили украинца Петра Трохимчука с женой-полячкой;
— 30.08.43 г., Куты. Зверски убили украинскую семью Владимира Красовского с двумя маленькими детьми;
— Август 1943 г., Яновка. Бандеровцы убили польского ребенка и двух украинских детей, так как они воспитывались в польской семье;
— Август 1943 г., Антолин. Украинец Михаил Мищанюк, который имел жену-полячку, получил приказ убить ее и годовалого ребенка. Вследствие отказа его с женой и ребенком убили соседи.
…
-on the night on 21.03.43 g. in Shumske they killed two Ukrainians - Ishchuka and Kravchuka, which helped Poles;
- April of 1943, Belozerka. The same bandits themselves killed Ukrainian Tatiana Mikolik for the fact that it had with a Pole of child;
- 5.05.43 g., Klepachev. They killed the Ukrainian of Peter Trokhimchuk with the wife ;
- 30.08.43 g., Kuty. They brutally killed the Ukrainian family of Vladimir Krasovskiy with two small children;
- August of 1943, Yanovka. Banderovtsy killed Polish child and two Ukrainian children, since they brought up in the Polish family;
- August of 1943, Antolin. Ukrainian Mikhail Mishchanyuk, who had the wife -polish, was obtained order to kill her and year old child. As a result of its refusal he with the wife and child were killed.
There are only a small part of violence that UPA brought for the own ukrainian people.
5. the UPA was not participated in jewish HOLOCAUST.
It is fanny but this rumour has come from USA in the 1954 when during the hysteria of Cold war the USA prepeared the ideological basis for the offencive to the soviets. Thus the Wiki tells about court in USA in 1954 that “proved’ the UPA was not guilt in the killing of jews.
This is a noncense coz even the manis withness ( including the whom emigrated to the USA, Canada and Britain after the war saving fro a communists ) who could survived the ethnical purges in the western Ukraine in the 1942-44 during the UPA 'activity” proves the OPPOSITE.
I 've already mentioned the killing of the jews and the anti-semite calles of the Ukrain nationalists leader.
I just wish to say about Roman Shukhevych ( the commander of UPA in 1943-50)who was a commander of Ukrainian group Nachtigall the pure punitive battalion of Wermash was activly partisipated in the massacre of jews in the Ukraine :like the massacre of Lviv’s professors in the jule 1941
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Lwów_professors
The killing of the jews by the Ukrainina nationalist UPA-OUNi ndeed has bagan immediatelly when the GErmans come to the Ukraine in the summer of 1941.
But till the 1943 those action were mostly sanctioned by the NAzy.
In contrast after the 1943 the UPA leader declared the own version of national politic.“Long live Ukraine without Jews, Poles and Germans; Poles behind the river San, Germans to Berlin, and Jews to the gallows”
The manies testimoies of the survived poles and szech were simply ignored by the USA political show-trial becouse (probably) it would be not yeasy to get the money from Senat for the CIA help of organisation that was perticipated in Holocaust.
6. It was a both side terror of the polish and ukrainian inhabitants(farmers)
This is also just a part of true.
Indeed the Ethnic terror was only in that part of Ukrain area that was under control of UPA. And the neither AK groups nor the soviet partisans could not prevent the polish henocide.
Certainly the terror was a mutual but the polish side suffered much more - the whole the region of Volun was practically cleared fro a polish population.
And about “ukrainian farmers” - i could admit the ukrainse could kill the poles in the hystery of nationalism but no one “groupe of farmers” could organised the such big scale terror.
This was a work of UPA- planned actions of slaughter.
About UPA veterans.
Sertainly to say they were a criminals is wrong.
Among them there were a lot of peoples who was not participated in war crimes, manies of them was simply naivly believed they forught for the freedom and were used by its leader in the political purposes.
Like and among Waffen SS-units troops were peoples who not guilt in the commited mass crimes. ( although the Waffen SS was called as criminal organisation ).
So i think this will be right to applu this determination to the Nationalistic organisation of Ukraine that has own the “Ethnic program” during the WW2.
p.s.
Just do not think i dispute the Ukrainian Independence here;)
The Independent Ukraine is the best solution for all us ( but really independent)
Ok, Kato, thaths enough.
If you write something like above statement, I believe you have the proofs.
This is the worst rubbish I have read for months.
Let me explain one thing:
Germans were murdering Poles since September 1939 and characterized Poles as the lower race which might be used only for slavework purposes. Otherwise, Poles should be exterminated.
Germans became the enemies of any Pole (male, female, child, man or woman).
Because of that none of AK commanders would cooperate with Nazis.
Another reason:
If AK Command find out about such actions of any unit, its commander (or commanding NCO) would be accused of colaboration with the enemy and sentenced to death penalty and shot immediately by AK special units (firing squads).
Besides that, none of Polish organised military unit (any of ressistance units) have ever cooperated with the Nazis.
So Kato, do you have any proofs?
If yes, present them to us.
If not, stop writing lies.
The opposite point is that there were no calls for conducting ethnic cleansing in what you posted. So when you accuse OUN-UPA of slaughtering Polish families you makes ungrounded and slanderous statements. The difference between Hitler when he declared Germany for the Germans and Bandera is evident. Germany was a free sovereign state and Ukraine was occupied and needed to be returned to its people.
[b]Here is the Ukrainian translation of the article printed in the British newspaper Manchester Guardian on the 14th of October 1930 about Polish atrocities and terror against Ukrainian civilians . The article called: The tragedy of Ukraine and Polish terror
The essence of the article is that the Polish terror targets not seperate individuals but all Ukrainians as a nation
Here is just one sentence: Польські карні експедиції звернені не проти одиниць, але проти цілого народу, загалом проти цілої народної культури.
Translation
Polish punative army raids is aimed not against individuals but against the whole Ukrainian nation and its culture. [/b]
The full Ukrainian translation of the article:
Стаття з англійської газети “Манчестер Ґардіан” “Трагедія України та польський терор” [14 жовтня 1930 року]
Польське насильство на [Західній] Україні набрало тепер більшої сили, ніж щось подібне бувало колись в Європі. [Західна] Україна стала краєм розпуки і знищення, яке ще більшу увагу звертає на себе тим, що права [Західної] України запоручив міжнародний трактат, а Ліґа глуха на просьби й аргументи, і дальший світ нічого про все те не знає, або не клопочеться…
У віносинах, які на [Західній] Україні існують, насильство є по обох сторонах, але насильство поляків переходить всяку міру. Українська робота позначилася підпалами і нищенням телеграфічних дротів, і про це польська преса пише, але про польські звірства, що є плановими і на ширшу міру, не згадує цілком.
Тероризування прихильників самоуправи.
Українці хочуть самоуправи і добивалися її різними способами. У тій їх роботі випадкові насильні виступи, що є майже завсігди викликані польськими арештами або засудами на смерть українських в’язнів, мають мале значіння. Українські провідники їх не схвалюють, і цілого загалу не можна робити за них відповідальним, але тепер проте завдають терпіння цілому народові.
Польські карні експедиції звернені не проти одиниць, але проти цілого народу, загалом проти цілої народної культури. Які б вибрики одиниць не були по обох сторонах, є фактом, що польська поліція й кавалерія вживає масового насильства, а його жертвами є звичайні люди, непричетні до української чи польської політики.
Наведені факти з-поміж великого числа інших, яким навіть тяжко повірити. А хоч такого матеріалу назбиралось сила-силенна, а все ж це не охоплює всього насильства польських експедицій, що “заспокоюють” Східну Галичину.
Селян люто б’ють.
14 вересня відділ 4 польського полку кінноти прибув до Гусятич, пов. Бібрка. Від людей забирали велику кількість збіжжя, ярини, хліба, яєць і молока без ніякої заплати. Серед ночі зажадали від війта, щоб сказав імена тих селян, які мають зброю. Коли сказав, що не знає, 5 вояків його забрали і дали 50 буків [завдали 50 ударів палицею]. Подібно побили 8-ох інших селян.
Вночі 14 вересня відділ кінноти побив нагайками около 30 осіб у Старім і Новім Яричеві. 16 вересня кіннота прибула до Гаїв коло Львова. По дорозі захопили селян, що йшли в поле на роботу, і побили їх немилосердно. Забрали також багато поживи й худоби. Брали чоловіків, жінок і дітей і били по черзі, доки ті не умлівали. Тоді обливали холодною водою, а коли побитий опам’ятався, то інколи й далі били.
Івана Романишина і його сина та дочку так побили, що ті тепер у жахливому стані, а так само двоє дітей війта. Дам’яна Пруса так мучили, що зламали йому ногу. Знищили кооперативну крамницю й побили нагайками крамарку. Повибивали вікна в читальні. Подібне робили в Підберізцях коло Львова того самого дня. Знищили кооперативну крамницю і побили багато селян. Там побили хлопця, Петра Бубелу, так, що той бореться зі смертю.
В селі Курівцях, пов. Тернопіль, забрали багато поживи й побили багато селян. А одного з них, Олексу Політача, гнали крізь село і примушували кричати: “Многі літа маршалкові Пілсудському!” За ним бігло кількох вершників і били ввесь час.
Побиті на смерть.
27 і 28 вересня відділи кінноти напали на села довкола Городка Ягеллонського. Страшено пограбували селян і багато людей побили. Оці побиті на смерть: Олекса Менсаль у селі Бартатові, Микола Мороз і Стефан Сікташ у Ставчанах, Антон Шандро в Керниці і Гринько Шмагала в Любині Великім.
На 22 і 23 вересня відділи озброєної пішої поліції завітали до села Купчинець, пов. Тернопіль, знищили кооперативний склеп [крамницю], читальню і музичні інструменти, які належали до сілької оркестри. Багато селян побито. Селянин Теодор Чайковський у селі Довжанка побитий на смерть. 23 вересня поліція прийшла до Покропивної (Тернопіль). Багатьох селян схопили і змушували цілувати “польську землю” та вигукувати образи проти “Матері України”. Володимира Кріля тяк тяжко побили, що його життя в небезпеці. Багато селян були такі покриті кров’ю і синяками по побиттю, що тяжко було їх пізнати.
Села понищені.
Сільскьий учитель Микола Антоняк, його дружина Ганна, як рівно ж декілька селян (імена їх я маю) були дуже тяжко побиті. Жінку Михайла Школьного примусили співати польський національний гімн тоді, як її били. Сільський склеп [крамницю] знищено. Товар зложено на купу, полито парафіною і підпалено. Молочарня і бібліотека читальні знищені.
Подібне було й по інших селах (я маю записані імена яких 30 чоловіків, жінок і дітей, які були так потурбовані, що їх здоров’я в небезпеці).
В селі Журів молочарню цілковито знищили, навіть машинерію, хемікалії і пляшки знищили. Робітників молочарні немилосердно били нагайками — одна дівчина, Настя Бобик, у жахливому стані. Міст також не оминули — між іншими — Нове Село, Рогатин, Бережани були навіщені відділом поліції. Українські кооперативи, читальні, бібліотеки та інституції понищені, столи, крісла, книжки, горшки, кухні, начиння і піяна [піаніно] поторощені, дошки в помостах (підлогах) порубані, одіж і постелі потяті ножами. В Тернополі знищено бібліотеку в 40.000 книжок.
Знищення культури.
“Пацифікація” (успокоєння) [Західної] України силою тих карних експедицій правдоподібно найбільш руйнівничий напад, який був коли зроблений на будь-яку з національних меншин, і найгірше порушення угоди щодо меншин. І справді, цілу культуру, і то високу культуру, нищено протягом трьох минулих тижнів. Кооперативи, школи, бібліотеки і інституції, побудовані українцями протягом довгих років праці, пожертв та ентузіазму, майже виключно на їх власні засоби, при величезних труднощах. Вони відчувають утрату цих своїх здобутків майже так само, як свої надлюдські фізичні терпіння.
Поляки без сумніву опублікують звичайні урядові заперечення. Негайне і безстороннє слідство на місці трагедії, з додатком охорони свідків од переслідувань є наглою [невідкладною] конечністю.
Well you personally could deny whatever you wish, but any really neaitral men who read the “Jews , Poles and Moskaly is the most danger enemy of the Ukraine” without any doubt should understand what this mean in practice during the war.
So please do not spread here the primitive “justifications”.
So when you accuse OUN-UPA of slaughtering Polish families you makes ungrounded and slanderous statements.
do I make a statements …?
No sir those statements were formulated bu the manies of INTERNATIONAL historians from a different countries who studied the UPA histrory.
So you please do not slander their coz they know much more then you about UPA.
BTW sorry for the one my serious mistake gentelmens - the Alexander Korman is not polish but British author , his dook was published in London for the first time, then re-published in Poland afte downfall of communism.
The difference between Hitler when he declared Germany for the Germans and Bandera is evident. Germany was a free sovereign state and Ukraine was occupied and needed to be returned to its people.
Oh really western Ukraine was occuped in the 1941-44 by the Poland ( that itself was under occupation in that time),if the most of victims of UPA’s fight were the civils polish.
Where is the english translation please?
Kato, proofs please!!!
Could you also provide us the english version of this text? (if it is so crucial to this discussion).
I don’t have the English version. I will translate a couple of passages especially for you. I hope that Chevan is be able to understand Ukrainian as he used to cite books in Ukrainian on the forum or you Chevan cite them without having idea about their content?
Don’t worry Kato , i’m rougtly understand the ukraine.
But you have to understand this forum is not only for both us and other members also wish to know what do you wite about.
Besides you’ve mentioned in your last post the baheving the polish troops in the Western ukraine in the 1930yy- so i think it should be quite interesting for our polish friend to read this;).
If you have no the english version - then at least try to translate the some of the importaint for understanding parts of your text.
27 і 28 вересня відділи кінноти напали на села довкола Городка Ягеллонського. Страшено пограбували селян і багато людей побили. Оці побиті на смерть: Олекса Менсаль у селі Бартатові, Микола Мороз і Стефан Сікташ у Ставчанах, Антон Шандро в Керниці і Гринько Шмагала в Любині Великім.
On the 27th and 28th of Sertember 1930 Polish army cavalry detachments attacked the villages around Городка Ягеллонського. They robbed Ukrainian inhabitants and severely beaten up lots of people. Some of the people were beaten to death The names of the civilian people killed by the Polish Army: Олекса Менсаль у селі Бартатові, Микола Мороз і Стефан Сікташ у Ставчанах, Антон Шандро в Керниці і Гринько Шмагала в Любині Великім.
На 22 і 23 вересня відділи озброєної пішої поліції завітали до села Купчинець, пов. Тернопіль, знищили кооперативний склеп [крамницю], читальню і музичні інструменти, які належали до сілької оркестри. Багато селян побито. Селянин Теодор Чайковський у селі Довжанка побитий на смерть. 23 вересня поліція прийшла до Покропивної (Тернопіль). Багатьох селян схопили і змушували цілувати “польську землю” та вигукувати образи проти “Матері України”. Володимира Кріля тяк тяжко побили, що його життя в небезпеці.
On the 22th and 23rd of Semptember the units of Polish police visited the village of Kupchinez not far from Ternopil. They destroyed local Ukrainian shop and Ukrainian library. Lots of villagers were beaten up. The farmer Teodor Chaikovskij was beaten to death. On the 23rd of September Polish policemen visited the village of Pidkropivnya. They humiliated local Ukrainian inhabitants, forced villagers to kiss “Polish land” and cry out swearings against Ukraine. the local villager Volodymyr Kril was crippled by Polish policemen and was on the verge of death.
14 вересня відділ 4 польського полку кінноти прибув до Гусятич, пов. Бібрка. Від людей забирали велику кількість збіжжя, ярини, хліба, яєць і молока без ніякої заплати. Серед ночі зажадали від війта, щоб сказав імена тих селян, які мають зброю. Коли сказав, що не знає, 5 вояків його забрали і дали 50 буків [завдали 50 ударів палицею]. Подібно побили 8-ох інших селян.
On the 14 of September a unit of Polish cavalry regiment arrived in Gusyatych. Polish militants robbed the local Ukrainian community. The robberies was accompanied with violence against Ukrainians.
Вночі 14 вересня відділ кінноти побив нагайками около 30 осіб у Старім і Новім Яричеві. 16 вересня кіннота прибула до Гаїв коло Львова. По дорозі захопили селян, що йшли в поле на роботу, і побили їх немилосердно. Забрали також багато поживи й худоби. Брали чоловіків, жінок і дітей і били по черзі, доки ті не умлівали. Тоді обливали холодною водою, а коли побитий опам’ятався, то інколи й далі били.
On the 14th of September at night Polish cavalry unit severely beat 30 Ukrainians in Stariy and Noviy Jarychev. On the 16th of Semptember Polish soldiers arrived in Gaiiv near Lviv. On the way to Gaiiv these Polish soldiers captured Ukrainiin farmers and beaten them up without any mercy. Upon arrival to the village they started to rob Ukrainians. Ukrainian children, women and men were beaten till they became unconscious.
Івана Романишина і його сина та дочку так побили, що ті тепер у жахливому стані, а так само двоє дітей війта. Дам’яна Пруса так мучили, що зламали йому ногу. Знищили кооперативну крамницю й побили нагайками крамарку. Повибивали вікна в читальні. Подібне робили в Підберізцях коло Львова того самого дня. Знищили кооперативну крамницю і побили багато селян. Там побили хлопця, Петра Бубелу, так, що той бореться зі смертю.
Ivan Romanchishen, his son and daughter were heavily beaten up by Polish militants. They also beat up two children of the local Ukrainian head of the village. Another villager Damian Prus was tortured and had his leg broken. This violence was accompanied by robberies and the destruction of houses that belonged to Ukrainians. A boy Petro Bubelo was crippled and left to die.
There are much more examples of the crimes and atrocities of Polish soldiers and policemen against Ukrainian men, women and children in this article.
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that this English journalist spent in the Ukrainian territories occupied by Poles only a few weeks and wrote only about the events that were taking place during his short stay in Ukraine. As you see from the dates in ther article it deals only with the “feats” of Polish army and police that occurred within the period of two weeks. It is also evident that the Polish authorities tried to hush up such cases from the international community so the atrocities and crimes commited by Polish militants described in the article is just the apex of the iceberg of what happened in these two weeks. These weeks were usual and routine and can exemplify the Polish policy and attitude to Ukrainians. It was characteristic for “brave Polish soldiers and policemen” who heroicly robbed torture and kill Ukrainians civilian men, children and women between the two world wars. Evidently this attitude was shared by the majority of civilian Poles. As all this unmotivated terror and violence couldn’t be conducted without their approval and support. All it lasted for twenty years. It is clear that by 1941 the Polish terror had touched nearly each Ukrainian man, woman and child in the region. The war changed the situation and equalled the chances of Ukrainians and Poles. From the very beginning of the German invasion both civilian communities started to accumulate arms and ammunition which they collected on battle-grounds and in a huge number of abandoned Soviet stocks of weapon. None of the sides had military advantages so the situation was more equal than it was in the 1920s and 1930s
Posted by Chevan:
1.The UPA ONLY fought for independent Ukraine.
This is false. the UPA was dominated in the only small part of Ukraine. The UPA regions were mainly Volun and Galicia with population and territory about 7-10% of whole Urrainian.
The most great partisan movenment that controlled the bigest part of forests Ukraine was the soviet partisan about 220 000 in the 1942-43.
After the liberation of the most part of Ukraine they simply joined to the regular army and continie fight with Nazy.
The UPA that the number was about 35 -50 000 in 1944 is simply was not able to express the whole Ukraine’s will , especially in its central and Eastern-south parts.In those regions the influence of UPA was a ZERO.
To the contrast the soviet partisans were presented in the Volun and Galicia ( but they were in minority).
So as you could see the UPA was not a dominated partisan power in Ukraine so they could not pretend for the “fight for Ukraine”.
It is not correct information. In a debriefing before U.S. authorities in 1948, a Committee of former German commanders on the Eastern front claimed that “the Ukrainian Nationalist movement formed the strongest partisan movement in the East, with the exception of the Russian Communists.”
OUN-UPA was the only force that expressed Ukrainian will. As the the USSR always expressed and defended the interests of Soviet communistic
bureaucrats.
The overall number of people who who fought in OUN-UPA since 1942 to the mid 1950s exceeds 700000 men. The territory where they operated had the population of 15000000 people and embaced Western and Central Ukraine ( Hmelnitskiij, Zhytomirskij and Vinnitskiij regions) as well as some territories of modern Poland and Slovakia.
German estimates stated that UPA had up to 100,000 soldiers (other estimates are as low as 35,000 and as high as 200,000), and they conducted hundreds of raids on German police stations and military convoys. By late 1943 and early 1944, UPA controlled much of the territory in Volyn outside of the major cities, and was able to organize basic services for the villagers such as schools, hospitals, and the printing of newspapers. In the region of Zhitomir (cenrtal Ukraine), for example, Ukrainian UIA fighters were estimated by the German General-Kommissar Leyser to be in control of 80% of the forests and 60% of the farmland. As to the east or south of Ukraine the precence of OUN-UPA was high there due to the fact that for the creation of the strong partisan movement one requires time and scrupulous work. It is a well known fact that the Soviets while retreating to the east organized their partisan units, provide them with arms, ammunition etc. When OUN came to these regions they had to start from zero. They were confronted by local communist detachments who were supported by Moscow as well as fought with Germans and Poles. OUN-UPA tried to spead full control over these Ukrainian regions but as they had to fight against German troops Polish and Soviet partisans. So they simply lacked time and resources to do it within 2 years.
So claming the UPA ( who fight with both the soviet-ukrainian partisans and Red Army) fight for Ukraine is nonsence.They fight for its power in the "thiers’ regions.
You simply play with words. The Soviet partisans also fought for power in the East and South of Ukraine. They also struggled for control over the territories with Germans. The partisan activities and control (power) over certain area that is used as a base for partisans can’t be devided.
chevan wrote: As we have saw with the help of Kato the victims of NKVD and soviet soldiers were about 9 000 for all the period of war with the UPA. At that same period the victims of UPA were at least 60 000 of ukraininas who was loyal for the soviet
.
Here is my original post on these issue
О крупных масштабах боевых действий в этом регионе свидетельствуют данные о боевых потерях с обеих сторон. Так, согласно справке НКВД УССР, подписанной заместителем наркома Т. Строкачем, который курировал западные области, с февраля 1944 г. до октября 1945 г. Красная Армия и войска НКВД провели 26685 боевых операций против ОУН и УПА. За это время были убиты 98 846 повстанцев и подпольщиков, взяты в плен либо арестованы 104990 человек. Были, конечно, потери и с другой стороны. Как указано в справке, погибли 9621 красноармейцев и сотрудников HКВД, ранены 1343 и пропали без вести 2456 человек. И это всего за 20 месяцев.
The passage contains information based on a report signed by the deputy of narkom of NKVD in Ukraine about casualties on both sides of the conflict since February 1944 till October 1945. It says that 98 846 OUN-UPA fighters were killed in severe clashes with NKVD troops and 104990 were arrested as people suspected in belogning to OUN-UPA. The losses of NKVD were stated as: 9621 NKVD soldiers and officers killed, 1343 wounded and 2456 missing in action. And it is only within 20 months. Considering a wonderful feature of Soviet statistics to decrease the losses of Soviet troops ( For instance it is a well-known fact that the number of losses of the Red Army during World War II was cut by the Soviet statistics several times. It was done to save the reputation of wise Soviet leaders). So it is logical to believe that even these figures (for twenty months) that show the losses of NKVD troops were much lower than they were in reality
It is important to bear in mind that the confrontation between UPA and Soviet punitive troops only started in 1944-1945 (twenty months) and lasted till the late of 1950s.
Originally Posted by Chevan
During the cruel therror in of the 1945-1953 they not only killed about 3 000 of the Moskaley ( NKVD members ) but and about 25 000 of native Ukrainians ( with members of its families) who was loyal to the soviets or simply did not wish to participate in the civil war in the side of UPA.
And now you say that there UPA killed 60000 Ukrainians loyal to the Soviets. Next time Chevan will say that all the Ukrainians in the 1940 and 50s where killed by banderovtsi.
About UPA veterans.
Sertainly to say they were a criminals is wrong.
Among them there were a lot of peoples who was not participated in war crimes, manies of them was simply naivly believed they forught for the freedom and were used by its leader in the political purposes.
Like and among Waffen SS-units troops were peoples who not guilt in the commited mass crimes. ( although the Waffen SS was called as criminal organisation ).
Well, I don’t think that one can describe that such veterans at their age after what they had to go through as naive and people who joined OUN-UPA by mistake.
Kato, the events you mentioned happend during so-called “first pacification” in late 1930.
I would need more time to find polish sources desrcibing that atrocities, but we need to point out that all that happend after few weeks of large scale ukrainian terrorist attacks on polish granaries in the eastern districts. The situation was dramatic and could disturb the economy and food supply system of whole country. That actions of Urainians provoked the reaction of polish government.
No doubt it was absolutely exaggerated. But we must remember, if we want to discuss objectively, that nothing happens without a reason. And we should present all points of view, with description of good and bad characteristics of all involved sides.
For example, personally I believe that polish side could adopt a new anti-discrimination policy towards ukrainian population, instead of limited activities. And they should do it as fast as they could.
Of course there were at least two parties in polish political background. Some of them wanted to stop discrimination of Ukrainians, other wanted to pacify them, etc.
And as it usually takes place, when Ukrainian nationalists started their terrorist actions, they gave a great argument for those who wanted to react brutally.
My opinion about polish attitude towards Ukrainian population is negative.
Not only in XX century, but much, much earlier.
I got to go… Boss has arrived 
pozdrawiam,
Kovalski
Kovalski, not as a provocation, but what do you think was the reason for those “large scale ukrainian terrorist attacks on polish granaries in the eastern districts”? According to you (and I agree) there must have been a reason.
My opinion about polish attitude towards Ukrainian population is negative.
Not only in XX century, but much, much earlier.
I got to go… Boss has arrived
pozdrawiam,
Kovalski
Yes, unfortunately it is true about the Ukrainian and Belorussian pesants. They were rather opressed in the past during couple of centuries. This antogonism was well founded and had very-very deap historical routes.
No man here you are wrong in attempt to spread the activity of UPA on the central part of Ukraine.
This is pitiful attempt to “steal the fight” from the Vestern ukrainian partisan movenment who fight with soviets.
Ended the UPA was dominated power ONLY in the some of the regions of Western Ukraine
German estimates stated that UPA had up to 100,000 soldiers (other estimates are as low as 35,000 and as high as 200,000)
The Gernan sources is not a first-time sources about UPA.
You favorite UPA-revisionists site - where you get the infor about the 9000 killed NKVD
http://sonyah.narod.ru/upahistory.html
Get us another figures
Численность УПА нарубеже 1943-44 гг. составляла около 40 тысяч бойцов. Всего же за годы существования УПА в ее рядах побывало до 400 тысяч человек. А если принять во внимание, что кроме УПА существовали еще формирования СКО и территориальная подпольная сеть ОУН, то получается, что за 12 лет боевых и политико-пропагандистских действий через движение сопротивления прошли не менее 700 тысяч человек!
…
Number UPA in 1943-44 yr. composed about 40 000 soldiers. In all in the years of existence UPA its numbers it visited to 400 thousand people. But if one takes into account, that besides UPA there were other formations SKO and territorial underground network OUN, then it turns out that in 12 years of the combat and political- propagandistic operations through the resistance movement passed not less than 700 thousand people!
For the comparition the number of the Ukrainian partisan who fought with Germans together with Soviets estimated in the 1943 is over 220 000 of mens.
So as we see the UPA was a small part of Ukrainian partisan movenment thus the UPA simply could not express the will of whole Urainian peoples in 1943-45.
The total damage that UPA-OUN has made for the GErmans troops is NOTHING with comparition with fight of pro-soviets partisans activity who fight agains Nazy.
For instance the Partisan of UKaine in the 1941-44 expoded about 5000 of germans trains and 2200 of briges .http://www.booksite.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/087/173.htm
, and they conducted hundreds of raids on German police stations and military convoys. By late 1943 and early 1944, UPA controlled much of the territory in Volyn outside of the major cities, and was able to organize basic services for the villagers such as schools, hospitals, and the printing of newspapers.
Right, due to the GErmans problems in the East Front and shortage of troops the UPA could fight the control of some of the areas.
In the region of Zhitomir (cenrtal Ukraine), for example, Ukrainian UIA fighters were estimated by the German General-Kommissar Leyser to be in control of 80% of the forests and 60% of the farmland. As to the east or south of Ukraine the precence of OUN-UPA was high there due to the fact that for the creation of the strong partisan movement one requires time and scrupulous work.
Oh really already 80% of the forests and 60% of farmland was under controll of the 40 000 UPA units;)?
So where were hided the 220 000 of soviet-ukrainian partisans?
So they simply lacked time and resources to do it within 2 years.
Yea the ukrainian nationalist were too busy for the firsts 2 years- they slaughtered the jews together with Germans.
Later when has bacame the “strong” they bacame the ethnic purges of the Volun in the 1943 .
You simply play with words. The Soviet partisans also fought for power in the East and South of Ukraine. They also struggled for control over the territories with Germans. The partisan activities and control (power) over certain area that is used as a base for partisans can’t be devided.
No man the soviet partisan in Ukraine was aimed to destroy the Nazy forces. They expoded the briges and trains, they helped the Red Army for the fight with the Nazy.
They were not naive to think they could alone win the Germans. They ONLY could help.
But as we know the UPA declared the fight for independence- the political bloody adventure. They overestimated its forces and they were not aimed to fight with NAzy. All their “operations” had bandits or self-defence character (or ethnical clearising).