Oh yes my mistake, excuse me gentlemens. I was wrong when told about 3000 of soviet soldiers tjat was killed by the UPA.
I just confused the UPA with the Baltic “forest brothers”. Sorry again.
Now do yousee mst. Kato - i could recognize my mistakes;)
Could you - that is the question;)
We still do not see the “confirmation of the AK&Germany colloboration” in the Western Ukraine;)
The figure of the 60 000 of ukrainians who were killed by UPA since the 1941-1954 is not my - this is from a Viktor Polishyk book ( BTW he isUkrainian authror)
The some of documents that shows the UPA ideological-instuctions toward the Ukrainian population
http://www.sevastopol.ws/Forums/?file=viewtopic&t=917&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
В документе “Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя” указывалось:
“Національні меншини поділяються на:
а) приязні нам…
б) ворожі нам москалі, поляки, жиди…
а) мають однакові права з українцями, уможливлюємо їм поворот на їх батьківщину; б) винищування в боротьбі зокрема тих, що боронитимуть режиму; винищування головно інтелігенцію, якої не вільно допускати до ніяких урядів, і взагалі унеможливлюємо продукування інтелігенції, себто доступ до шкіл і т. д. Напр., т. зв. польських селян асимілювати, усвідомлюючи їм, що вони українці, тільки латинського обряду…
Проводирів нищити, жидів ізолювати, поусувати з урядів, щоб уникнути саботажу, тим більше москалів і поляків. Наша влада повинна бути страшна для її противників. Терор для чужинців-ворогів і своїх зрадників”[/b] (Арх. спр. #376, т. 6, с. 294-302)
…
Nationalists minorities devided:
1.friendly for us. They has a equal right with ukrainians
2. our enemies:Moskali, poles and jews. who was a low race.
“our power will terrible for our enemies”
The Roman Shuhevish the leader of UPA in the 1943-50 wrote
"Домагатися, щоб ні одне сіло не визнало радянської влади. ОУН має діяти так, що усі, хто визнав радянську владу, були знищені. Не залякувати, а фізично знищувати! Не потрібно боятися, що люди проклянуть нас за жорстокість. Хай із 40 мільйонів українського населення залишиться половина - нічого страшного в цьому немає" (Чайковський А., Невідома війна, К., 1994, с. 224).
…
Everybody who admit the power of centre (i.e. the communists) will be phiysically destructed. Don’t fear the peoples will blame us for cruelty. Let the half of 40 million Ukrainian population would killed - there is no terrible"
Thus they literally declared the civil war in Ukraine - agaist the own Ukrainian people.
Here are the some of interesting documents about UPA activity in ukrain toward its own population:
"Отчет полицейско-исполнительного отряда СБВР (Служба безопасности войскового района) “Озеро” за период с 13.01. до 4.05. 1944 г…
11. Арестовано 307 лиц:
а) за коммунизм 111 лиц
б) сексотство 59 лиц
в) НКВД 67 лиц
г) семьи 70 лиц
Вместе 307 лиц
Карой смерти наказано 306 лиц (триста шесть). Освобождено из-под ареста 1 лицо (одно). Все вещи ликвидированных переданы господарчему под расписку, часть отдана в отряд.
…
The report of the police-service unit of SB ( spesial punutive units) for the period 13.01 -4.05.1944
11. arrested 307 peoples
a). for communism ( i.e who were suspected of sympaty for communists or simply did not sympaty for UPA)-111 peoples
b) secsotstvo ( i.e betrayers) -59 ppl
c) NKVD ( what NKVD could be in the western Ukraine int eh winter-spring of the 1944?;)) -67 ppl
d). members of families - 70 ppl.
Total -307 ppl.
Executed by death - 306 ppl.1 liberated.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////.
- “Отчет за сентябрь 1943 г. К.В.П. (Палий). Покорно докладываю… на протяжении этого месяца СБ проводила ликвидацию… Уничтожено 65 коммунистов, 25 агентов, а также поляков”.
…
The report for the september of 1943.:
I report … during this month the SB liquidated …65 communists, 25 agents and poles
As you could see the terror of the peoples the most of whoom were the ukrainians was a lovely tactic of UPA units.Moreover the main characteristic of this terror was a ethnical approach.
And about the UPA independent fight with sviet mashine in the 1945-1954.
As we know the CIA tryed to help for the UPA and prepearede the diversants for the operative help.
But this is not wide known fact bust at the same time the Ukrains Nationalostic Organisation in USA grabbed the Ukrain emigrants for the money 
Американские авторы Майкл Сайерс и Альберт Канн в книге “Тайная война против Америки” пишут, что члены “Организации государственного возрождения Украины” занимались не только шпионажем в пользу Германии, но и сбором денежных средств на нужды ОУН путем незаконного обложения налогами эмигрантов-украинцев, а более солидные суммы получали от родственников похищенных ими американцев, в случае отказа уничтожали их.
…
The americans authors Mickle Saers and Albert Kann in his book “The secret war agains Amerika”(1947) wrote: the members of Ukraine “Organisation of Restore the Ukraine” was doing not only spies activity for the GErmany during the WW2 , but also and by extortions of money from a ukrains-emigrants, but most great summs they recieved from a ralatives of kidnaped hostages, if they did not pay - they killed them"
.
Численность УПА нарубеже 1943-44 гг. составляла около 40 тысяч бойцов. Всего же за годы существования УПА в ее рядах побывало до 400 тысяч человек. А если принять во внимание, что кроме УПА существовали еще формирования СКО и территориальная подпольная сеть ОУН, то получается, что за 12 лет боевых и политико-пропагандистских действий через движение сопротивления прошли не менее 700 тысяч человек!
…
Number UPA in 1943-44 yr. composed about 40 000 soldiers. In all in the years of existence UPA its numbers it visited to 400 thousand people. But if one takes into account, that besides UPA there were other formations SKO and territorial underground network OUN, then it turns out that in 12 years of the combat and political- propagandistic operations through the resistance movement passed not less than 700 thousand people!For the comparition the number of the Ukrainian partisan who fought with Germans together with Soviets estimated in the 1943 is over 220 000 of mens.
Any partisan army has an active core that resembles a regular army and it has people who join this core whenever there is a necessity to conduct some operation and the core units need more people afterwards when the operation is over such partisans dissolve among population when the operation is over. So 40000 was just the core of UPA. German assessments that UPA had up to 100,000 soldiers (other estimates are as low as 35,000 and as high as 200,000) more reflects the fact that the number of core units of any partisan army varies dramatically depending on the military situation. As to Soviet partisans the Ukrainian Partisan Movement Headquarters in Moscow claimed that it was able to mobilize 150,000 fighters for the anti-German campaign during the offensive of the Red Army in Ukraine. The usual core of the Soviet partisans was significantly lesser than this 150,000.
Posted by Chevan:
“The total damage that UPA-OUN has made for the GErmans troops is NOTHING with comparition with fight of pro-soviets partisans activity who fight agains Nazy.
For instance the Partisan of UKaine in the 1941-44 expoded about 5000 of germans trains and 2200 of”
In a debriefing before U.S. authorities in 1948, a Committee of former German commanders on the Eastern front claimed that “the Ukrainian Nationalist movement formed the strongest partisan movement in the East, with the exception of the Russian Communists.” I think even the second place after the Soviet partisans is worth respecting considering the fact that Soviet partisans received extensive support from behind the front-line while the insurgents relied only on the ukrainian nation and in the western Europe there was no serious armed resistance to the Germans. The anti-German struggle of UPA was appreciated even by the leaders of the Soviet partisan movement in Ukraine. Комисар Руднев, главный соратник Ковпака, писал в своем дневнике: «Националисты бьют немцев, но они — наши враги». Senior Soviet partisan commander Rudnev wrote in his diary: “Ukrainian nationalists attack and defeat Germans but they are our enemies”.
Posted by Chevan: Yea the ukrainian nationalist were too busy for the firsts 2 years- they slaughtered the jews together with Germans.
Later when has bacame the “strong” they bacame the ethnic purges of the Volun in the 1943 .
I’ve already explained in my previous posts that there were no ties between Germany and OUN-UPA since the July of 1941 after the events in Lviv. Secondly everyone is aware of the facts that jews were isolated by Germans in the concentration camps and killed in these camps. So any attempts to accuse anyone but Germans of mass murders of jews are blatant lies. I’ve also proved in my previous posts that ethnic violence in Volyn was of mutual character. It was squaring accounts between two communities and none of the communities had military advantages.
Posted by Chevan:
No man here you are wrong in attempt to spread the activity of UPA on the central part of Ukraine.
This is pitiful attempt to “steal the fight” from the Vestern ukrainian partisan movenment who fight with soviets.
Ended the UPA was dominated power ONLY in the some of the regions of Western Ukraine
I would like to repeat:
In the region of Zhitomir (cenrtal Ukraine), for example, Ukrainian UIA fighters were estimated by the German General-Kommissar Leyser to be in control of 80% of the forests and 60% of the farmland.
Hmelnitskiij, Zhytomirskij and Vinnitskiij regions were always considered as the regions of central Ukraine. So my statement that “The territory where they operated had the population of 15000000 people and embaced Western and Central Ukraine ( Hmelnitskiij, Zhytomirskij and Vinnitskiij regions) as well as some territories of modern Poland and Slovakia” is correct
posted by Chevan: As you could see the terror of the peoples the most of whoom were the ukrainians was a lovely tactic of UPA units.Moreover the main characteristic of this terror was a ethnical approach.
As I foresaw it
Next time Chevan will say that all the Ukrainians in the 1940 and 50s were killed by banderovtsi.
Posted by Chevan:Thus they literally declared the civil war in Ukraine
The history of all liberation wars in different countries testifies to the fact that they were civil wars to a certain extent as well.
The first Soviet partisan detachments in Ukraine appeared in Chernihiv and Sumy regions. The area of their operations in Ukraine were mainly restricted to North-Eastern Ukrainian forest-land territories that bordered on Belarus and the Russian region of Bransk. The rest of Ukrainian East and South were mostly free from the precence of both Soviet partisans and UIA fighters due to the unfavorouble geographycal conditions ( endless steppes where any armed group of people could be easily detected and eliminated by Germans)
only in large towns and cities of the South and Ukrainian East there were a number of Soviet and nationalistic undergroun groups. Therefore it is wrong to claim that Soviet partisan movement embraced the bulk of the East and South of Ukraine.
So why the liberation of Poland and other Eastern Europe did not finished the civil war in 1945? May be the polish AK and other national partisan froces were friendly for the soviets?
I’m strongly doubt.
Indeed they knew they could win the soviet alone so it was stoopid to declare the civil war in to the their own peoples - this was a sea of blood nothing more.
But why the Ukrainian nationalistic leared boldly declared the civil war TO THE OWN PEOPLES?
May be you know but it was a lovely methods of bolshevics to declare the war for Russian peoples “for theRed Victory” - the stupidies compain of terror.
But they at least won this war ( although it sound cinically) in contrast of the Ukraine leaders who just doomed its own people for the terror without any chance for the victory.
Coz they were not leader of whole Ukraine - they were the bloody nationalists who were possessed by the ethnic ideas.
The soviet partisan movenment was the most organased and more numerous force in the Ukraine, whatever you spread about UIA fighters.
But you own post about the strongest partisan movenment of Ruissian forces is contraducted of it.
Have you any reliable infor about quantity of the partisan ( and the side that they belongs) in the different region of Ukraine?
Besides in the Soutern Ukraine and Estern - the most pro-soviet parts of Ukraine there were a no a wide supportions for the Ukrain Nationalsis - so UPA was absent in those regions.
May be you mean the other no-soviet partisan groups that were also presented but they were in minority.
So why the liberation of Poland and other Eastern Europe did not finished the civil war in 1945? May be the polish AK and other national partisan froces were friendly for the soviets?
About friendly attitude of AK to the USSR you may read just at the beginning of the thread about UIA
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4790
But on the whole Poles simply didn’t dare to fight against the Soviet troops. Perhaps partly they wasn’t included into the USSR and formally remained a sovereign state even were aided by Soviets in the struggle against UPA in Poland.
As to the liberation of other states in Eastern Europe. I think the term of liberation can be attributed only to the Check Republic and Yugoslavia(without Croatia). Yugoslavia tore all the ties with USSR soon after the war and then kept distance from the USSR partly restored the relations under Hrushchev times. The Chezkoslovakia was on the verge of civil war after the liberation in 1960. Hungary was a German ally there was an uprisings in 1956 that was opposed by Hungarian security forces alongside with the Soviet ones.
Posted by Chevan: Indeed they knew they could win the soviet alone so it was stoopid to declare the civil war in to the their own peoples - this was a sea of blood nothing more.
But why the Ukrainian nationalistic leared boldly declared the civil war TO THE OWN PEOPLES?
You ask me whether it was expedient for the UPA to wage war against the Soviets who were one of the two main super-powers in the world and what their war gave to Ukrainians?
Apart from ideological and historical significance one may come to a bizarre at first sight and untrivial conclusion. Analysing the events in the Soviet Ukraine in 1920s and 1930s one will see that there was no armed resistance to Bolshviks after 1921. What’s more there were no social protests against the Soviet power due to the mass fear of punative side of the regime. Nearly 100% of citizerns aspired to demonstrate loyality to the authorities to avoid repressions. And what out of it? The bolsheviks repressed and killed millions of quite harmless for them Ukrainians, arranged artificial hunger in 1932-1933. The simple comparison showed that the number of Ukrainians in the USSR killed or arrested per each 100000 in the 1930s is by many times higher then the number of Ukrainians who suffered from the Soviet repressions in the regions where UPA operated. So one can conclude that there would have been much more Ukrainian victims from Soviet terror if there had been no OUN-UPA. The insurgents managed to contain the Soviet punitive machine and saved essential part of Ukrainian population in the West and Center of Ukraine from death. It is simply sufficient to recollect that the Soviets arranged another mass hunger in 1946 in Ukraine. This artificially created famine touched only Soviet dominated regions of the South and East of Ukraine( that had one of the best soil in the world) and didn’t affect the territories where OUN-UPA was strong.
I believe that the Soviet saying “the one who doesn’t work doesn’t eat” should sound something like “the one who doesn’t shoot doesn’t eat”.
New research done by Polish historians finds that the infamous photo of children allegedly killed by UPA has nothing to do with UPA. Chevan posted this photo at http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4790 It was also used on the cover of the slanderous book about UPA written by pseudohistorian Alexander Korman. Here is translation from Polish newspaper Rzechpospolita. In few lines: the photo of crucified children which was widely used in anti-UPA publications has nothing to do with UPA.The photo was first used in the 90’s but has nothing to do with Poland. These are gypsy chilndren murdered by their insane mother in 1923. The original photos were first published in Psychiatric Annual in 1928 and later in 1948. In the 90’s the photo was “pinched” to tarnish the Ukrainians.
The online translator is not as good as I expected it to be, but here it is anyways:
FAKE DESCRIPTION OF A REAL CRIME
Its not knows how and when started to publish a false description of this crime as proof of crimes against Poles in 1943. The next people in chain who used this photo unknowinly, acted in good faith.
We desire to apologize readers on admission (preamble; enter) for severe illustrations for this article. Such photos should not appear in press, so, not only, in order to shock readers and contribute to brutalization enclosing (enclose with) we ikonosfery, and also from estimate for introduced (presented) on them innocent donations of (victims of) awful crimes. We affix it (them), our other capabilities of documentary evidences of theses not seeing, which (who) concern for important problem allude recent message (knowledge) - splice and from before over semi century (age) dramatic events. Several weeks ago message (knowledge) has appeared in media about plans of erect in (to) center of new warsaw of monument. Polish-wide committee of structure of monument of donation of (victim of) genocide performed by OUN project of authorship of known artist of sculptor of indispensable marian has presented on polish population of eastern (eastern) verge at this opening - UPA. The monument presents stylized tree, on which, bodies of four children are attached . Photo was placed as a prototype of this earth-shattering image publications, issued in an album about genoside commited by UPA against Polish nation. Photographic documentation lived ", we present which (who) photo near ( and ). These publications serve place and date of introduced (presented) crime too teach plan of structure of monument - end 1943 , but differentiated reactions have excited earth-shattering indispensable project more else, among others, letter of (list of) protest undersigned has hit for advice of (council of) warsaw by over 100 artists, scientists and politicians, they ascertain in which (who), that severe form does not be as (does not serve) commemorating of donation (victim) well < goods (right) > monumentu and polish -ukrainian reconciliation. Project of monument of representative body of donation of (victim of) cruel crime is really earth-shattering and as such can wake up argumentations. However, making is severe in literalness for stage from photo false. And so, photo ascertain , which (who) has become inspiration for sculptor, has common nothing with (from) by " donation (victim) genocide performed OUN on polish population of eastern (eastern) verge - " UPA. Children were not presented poles on it, murderer did not have they (their) with (from) nicwspólnego OUN and UPA and there was not ukrainian in whole, but crime during antipolish share (action) in (to) 1943 from 1923 year drama not follow (step) affirm so UPA, as we own undeniable proofs, that photo allude - prototype project monument other event presents - completely. It had place in night with (from) 11 on 12 december 1923 , four victims - gypsy children, but possessed mother was murderer , 32 -years old M.D. Event is described in issued work in (to) 1928 print in detail ( but in contemporary press surely too ). We have met these informations and photo eats in other documenting, later (late) publication, which (who) cited on article from year 1928. Both texts are publications from range of judicial medicine. It in (to) first article -psychiatric " psychosis judicial " szałowo-posępnicza kazuistyce, it was placed in (to) with (from) 1928 author " age group (year-book) psychiatric " Witold Łuniewski, many years director of plant (bet) in (to) Tworkach. Second (other) publication it for students " textbook medicine judicial and it issue physicians in (to) 1948 by " Wiktora Grzywo-Dąbrowskiego, professor of warsaw university and editorial committee member " age group (year-book) psychiatric ". It fact exactly, that mother was murderer of child , it has drawn attention teach . Unfortunate woman has killed four children in act of desperation after apprehension of husband and decomposition of gypsy group, it lived in which (who) until now, in conviction, that it threatens memorial < they (their) > death hunger niechybna. Next day has entered on police. It has been placed from errand of court (trial) in psychiatric plant (bet), where it ascertain psychosis at she (it) " " szałowo-posępniczą, we would say about heavy case of (accidentally of) depression today surely. As it writes Łuniewski, action was psychopathological attempt of (test of) effecting of expanded suicide ", it has not drove (has not cause) which (who) ill to the end ". Both mentioned publications include (reach; make) photos (photographers) from place of crime. Photo place in (to) " textbook medicine judicial ", we have meant which (who) number II. It is not as photo sight such number just reader I., that photo differs and there is mirror reflection . Photo placed has has become in work Łuniewskiego, we have meant which (who) number III, there is other photo no doubt, < unmistakable > it presents same stage -, but somewhat other part affirm photographed with (from). It image of (offense of) crime has been photographed by investigating office " taking over (concern) grimness (danger) ", it writes Łuniewski, and several photos execute from different prospects surely. Possible, that in judicial archives or photos of these stages have behaved police other else. Besides, photo hand and it differs from oblique bright (plain) lines remaining < survivor >, which (who) several commentator has taken for prickly wire erroneously.
Ada Rutkowska is a student at Collegium Civitas, member of Ring of New History Sciences CC.
Prof. Dariusz Stola is a teacher at Collegium Civitas, historian in ISP PAN
Original Polish article can be found here:
http://arch.rzeczpospolita.pl/szukaj/archiwum.pl
2 gazeta/Plus Minus [1000] Nr 116 - sobota, 19.05.2007
Continuation of the previous post
There are trails surely primary (original) photo zgięć or on negative zarysowań. On traces of legends of photos as it has has become , that photo of donation of (victim of) possessed mother regard with (from) 1923 as presentation of polish donation (victim) UPA, hand it behind (for) their icons then? Answers have on this question searching for, we have hit on several paths, partially consistent, partially divergent. Earliest recovered (turned up) publication eats it on 1943 in wroclaw on boundaries issue (seem) letter dating photo " ". Photo appears in (to) its (his) number 3 of 1993 adjusted description as " polish children tormented and by (squad of) ukrainian insurgent army in region of village murder Kozowa, in (to) woj. tarnopolskim, taken from collection of Dr. Stanisław Krzaklewski. Two appear in work photo lat < summer > < year > later J. In districts hungarian " army national (local) Stanisławów and -GALICIA OF child with signature (subscription) by departments (squads) in area PAGES polish " " murdered ( Tarnopol Kozowej pow.
This photo have always been used by the opponents of UPA as the prime illustration and evidence of Ukrainian atrocities. What’s more Polish chauvenists was going to erect a pathetic monument in Warsow to Polish victims of so-called “UPA’s terror against Polish civilians” using this photo as a pattern. Now it is proved to be a falsification and they will have to produce new fakes for their purporses
Original Polish article can be found here:
http://arch.rzeczpospolita.pl/szukaj/archiwum.pl
2 gazeta/Plus Minus [1000] Nr 116 - sobota, 19.05.2007
Well, I felt very sorry when I read your above opinion.
It seems that if Polish want to commemorate and honour the victims of genocide commited by UPA members, they are immediately called as “Polish chauvenists”, and the whole idea of it is “pathetic”.
When you joined the forum Kato, I tried to keep the distance and not to get involved in emotional argument. I was aware that our nations had a very, very dark history, and it was quite difficult to conduct the dialogue when so many atrocities had been commited.
I really tried.
But now I see, that you doesn’t care about polish arguments. You don’t give a #$%@ about them. You’re only interested in flooding the forum with info about Ukrainian victims, and their oppressors (polish or russian, doesn’t matter), and presenting one point of view, without even mentioning the other side’s arguments.
I must say that it makes me really sad and causes a lot of doubts when thinking about the polish-ukrainian dialogue. I hope that you Kato don’t represent anybody and your point of view is just an example of twisted eccentricity.
Well, I suppose the real example of twisted eccentricity is that Poles claimed that a photo of gypsy chilndren murdered by their insane mother in 1923 depicted Polish children killed by banderovtsi in the 1940s and it is even a bigger eccentricity to use it as a pattern for erecting a monument in the capital to commemorate and honour Polish victims of a genocide invented by Polish historians whose conclusions are based on such fake photos and documents.
So the murdered children were the work of insane gypsy - that nice invention;)
And what will you say about handreds of photos of brutally murdered whole polish families together with little babies - were it work of the Gypsies too?
And what about a handreds of testimonies of survived poles about mass murdering of UPA- May be it was a work of Grazy Jews?
What will you say on that, Nazy?
There is no any doubts that the ETHNIC TERROR was sanctioned by the UPA leaders, there are no any doubts there were a many thousands of civil victims of poles - much more then the ukranians coz the UPA controlled and ruled the ethnic clearisings.
So your justifications about “false photos” is more then ridicilous.
Just one analogy- if the some of photos the mass burning the bodies who perished from a ilness were mistaken demonstrated as the victims of Death camps - does it mean the Holocaust newer has been?
Certainly not.
But if according you logic the one op photo POSSIBLY false - does it mean the murdering of babies by a such brutal way never been too?