The Ukrainian Insurgent Army

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#121

Mate i myself have tired of this thread.
Every polish, chech and even british author who wrote about Volun the facts that did not like the UPA fans are the “Polish chauvenists” according the Kato point.
This is sily but even the manies Ukrainian like the Victor Polishuk and ets must be entered in the Polish Chauvenists line;)
BTW i found a excellent site about Volun

This is a impressive site with excellent dramatic soundtrack.
Could you help me to translate the some interesting of the pages of this site( i mean the dokumentye page http://genocide007.webpark.pl/) ?

Cheers.

#122

There are no handreds of photos that are claimed to depict brutally murdered whole polish families together with little babies in Ukraine. For insatnce the Polish site that is fully dedicated to so-called genocide and that you mentioned http://genocide007.webpark.pl/) gives only a dozen of photos on this topic. A half of them depicts quite sound and healthy people. Actually there are only these 6 photos of human bodies that are constantly used to put shadow on Ukrainian insurgents. By the way one of these 6 photos posted on the site is the one I wrote about in my previous posts. The photo of gypsy chilndren murdered by their insane mother in 1923. The original photos were first published in Psychiatric Annual in 1928 and later in 1948. In the 90’s the photo was “pinched” to tarnish the Ukrainians. It is a proven fact but this site still claims that the snapshot depicts Polish children killed by UPA members. Such attitude to facts testifies that the only goal of this site as well as other similar internet resources is to paint Ukrainian fighters as butchers and Poles who either “corageously” participated or eagerly supported the terror campaign of so-called pacification in 1920-30s aimed against unarmed Ukrainian civilians including children and women as innocent victims.

#123

There is not a single piece of credible evidence that the ethnic terror was sanctioned by the UPA leaders. All the people claiming that there are have never submitted any documents that clearly stated that some of OUN- UPA leaders issued orders to genocide Polish civilians.

Well and again about this Polish site. The translation of some “interesting pages” It claims the following:

In major genocide operations, there participated thousands upon thousands of local Ukrainian peasants, including the so-called Kushtchov Self-Defence Unils (Somooboronni Kushtchooi Viddily), oslensibly peasant “self-defence” unils which were in fact used by the Ukrainian Insurgenl Army to assist in genocide against the Poles. Added to this were bands armed with axes, pitchforks, etc., often composed of neighbours, who formed a kind of Ukrainian levy in mass. As if this were not enough, these bands were accompanied by Ukrainian women, youths, and even children, who busied themselves with looting, on a massive scale, arson and finishing off of Poles who had been wounded but survived 18. … As was already mentioned, there took pari in it thousands and thousands of ordinary peasants, including hordes of women, adolescents and even children at times.

So apart from the members of OUN-UPA nearly all ordinary local Ukrainians including women and children are claimed to be patological sadists and almost cannibals. The site describes Ukrainian territories under Polish ruling between two world wars as paradise on earth for Ukrainians. Of course, according to this internet resource Poles are the indeginous population of Ukraine and the only ones who contributed to its development in every field of life. By the way, Chevan, the site claims that the Russians (Soviet Union) as well as Germans arranged genocide of Poles in Poland. So if you provide this site here and trust it then you and other Russians should gather money to pay contributions and compensations to Poland, provide Poles with Russian citizernship and give them substential social benefits in you country just the way Germany is doing for Jews.

#124

Continuation from the previous page (moved below)

#125

Continuation from the previous page:

To say that every Polish, Chech and British author supports Polish genocide stories is nuisence. All these tales about unarmed civilian Poles genocided by OUN-UPA is a myth. First of all because none of the existing countries in the world officailly recognizes that the Polish-Ukrainian conflict was a genocide of Poles by Ukrainian insurgents.

#126

Well Kato, were did you learn that kind of logic?
According to that, any genocide which is not confirmed by other countries, will not be recognized as a genocide and it never happend?

It seems that you need a confirmation from abroad to belive that something happend.

If it is true, you may agree that there is no such nation as an Ukrainian, because when other modern nations developed their identity, created states, noneof them recognized “Ukrainians” as a separated ethnic group.
Is that ok for you?

I don’t think so.

By the way, it is well confirmated (by other states) fact, that UPA cooperated with Nazi Germany and even at it’s own initiative organised the holocaust of Jews. Do you have some more info about that Kato?

#127

I am not an expert on Law but when it goes about genocides it involves deep official investigation into the matter, gathering evidence, checking their crediblity. If there are enough credible evidence confirming the fact of genocide a state Parliament should pass an appropriate bill. So we can debate about a genocide when at least one country admits it by passing an appropriate bill. Perhaps I am mistaken but nothing similar have been conducted even in Poland not to mention other foreign states. So even if Poland officially do not admit the genocide of Poles by UPA then all the accusations of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army in it are nothing but ungrounded speculations and slander in principle.

#128

I am not aware of any states except Russia and Poland that officially did not recognize “Ukrainians” as a separated ethnic group.

#129

I meant “WHEN other modern nations developed their identity, created states, none of them recognized “Ukrainians” as a separated ethnic group” - XVII, XVIII century.

Are you sure that Poland did not recognize Ukrainians as a nation?
So what is it: http://www.ukraine-emb.pl/? :slight_smile:

And what about my last question?

#130

Kato, have you the problems with memory or did you read my previous posts at all?:wink:
It seems for me you did not.
Coz if you be attentive you should see the book of british Alexander Korman that i 've mentioned the several times.
http://anti-orange-ua.com.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1094&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=40
Here you could see the much more photos ONLY from the Volun.( This is only a small part of collection of photos).
Also a great material was collected by the polish historian Semashko that i’ve also already mentioned above.

Actually there are only these 6 photos of human bodies that are constantly used to put shadow on Ukrainian insurgents. By the way one of these 6 photos posted on the site is the one I wrote about in my previous posts. The photo of gypsy chilndren murdered by their insane mother in 1923. The original photos were first published in Psychiatric Annual in 1928 and later in 1948. In the 90’s the photo was “pinched” to tarnish the Ukrainians. It is a proven fact but this site still claims that the snapshot depicts Polish children killed by UPA members. Such attitude to facts testifies that the only goal of this site as well as other similar internet resources is to paint Ukrainian fighters as butchers and Poles who either “corageously” participated or eagerly supported the terror campaign of so-called pacification in 1920-30s aimed against unarmed Ukrainian civilians including children and women as innocent victims.

Firstly there are no any doubt that the UPA killed the children by the most brutal unhuman way- the too much of testimoties of peoples that were mentioned above.
Secondary there are no any evidences that the Poles lead the ethnic terror in Ukraine.
True the politic of Polonisation was the worst think ( the cultural oppresstions) but nevertheless the Poles never KILLED the whole polish families according the race principles- this is fact.Besides the Ukrains terrorist killed not only the poles but also and Ukrainians were “suspected with colloborationism”.
So any your attempts to present the “Polish guilt” in the Ethnic terror in 1943-44 by the so called pacification - is the nothing but demagogy.
I’m not a sure about Photo that you claims as the “filsification” - but i think this fact need to be the careful checked verified. Besides even if you right this fact could NEVER COVER the real scale of ethnic terror that had the place in Western Ukraine.( the overal estimates is 200 000++ of civils victims).

#131

You are absolutly wrong in here .
The fact that the both USSR and Communist Poland did not recogniced it as a henocide ( on purely political reason - they did not wish to create the political problem inside the Communist blook). By the other words - they did not with to set the Poles ang Ukrainian ( who was the soviet sitizents in that time for each other). The prefere to ignore the Ethnic problems and changed it as the “Class struggle”.
The eslablishing the any international act as a henocide could has the seriouse political, economical and other consequences.I think the both the Polish and Ukrainian authorities do not will that - this enemy act could creat a big problems for the both neighbour states.
The politic could not admit this situation ( and they absolutly right IMO) - The past should not be the problem of normal relations today- this is the true.
And Polish side is more responsible in this way- they do not wish to blame the whole Ukraine for the henocde. We all have the dirty things in our national past.

But when the some of Ukraine nationalists try to make the heroes from the own Nationalists ( the bastards who even worst then the Communists- as it was proved by history)- who slaughtered the people according the Race principles ( like the Nazy did)- i think we could not ignored the such insolent and danger revisionists attempts.
The fact that the Volun massacre was not officially recognized as the act of henocide - is the ONLY due to the resonable politics who do not wish to make the worst the relations with the other state. But this is ABSOLUTLY is not point to affirme the the Ethnic massacre was never existed.
I/m not against the Ukraine national idea - i repeat the Independent Ukraine is the best way for all us.
But i think you should understand that the historical justification of UPA-OUN who used the Nazy methodes toward the OWN population and who declared the civil war for the Ukrainians is the great mistake.
The behaviour of Kavalski is very modest- i can’t to be the so.
When you immediatelly began the attack to the Poland ( operation Vistla thread)- you was simply biased. The “tradey of deportation” was nothing in comparition with the bloody civil and Ethnic war in that regions. In rthat perspective the hard but effective Communists polish action was true( at least they quickly stopped this war).
So indeed your point is wrong and bisased - not the polish.
You began the justification of Ukraine Nazy coz they fought for “independent ukraine” ( inspite of methods that they used) - this is wrong way.
This is the way to Justify of Nazism - they also dreamed about “strong independent Europe” by any price.
Cheers.

#132

Well if you think so :wink:
I would very glad to create for the poles the special social benefith in the Russia- i hope this mean could help them to learn the my state better and forget about rest of rusophobia.
But i/m afraid even this extra-mean will not help the my friend Kovalsky to visit my state and to be my guest. :smiley:
Well you here touch the three interesting point Kato.
First - if me as the former soviet sitizent must pay the compensations for the Kovalski - you should do the same as the former USSR sitizent too.
Secondary( collective responibility) - if i as russian ( i/m never protect the bolshevic repressions and atrocities toward any NATIONS) must pay the money for the poles - you as the Western Ukrainians who protect and justify its methods the UPA-OUN atrocities toward the civils should go to the prison;)
And third - if you think that me as the Russian have the responsibility for the actions of so called “Soviet gov” in the 1930-1948 -would you call me at least one Ethnical russian in this gov who were responsible for that politic;)

Cheers.

#133

The fact that the both USSR and Communist Poland did not recognize Ukarianian-Polish conflict as a genocide was not because they did not want to spoil even more the relations between Poles and Ukrainians. From political point of view it was easy to hang all dogs on OUN-UPA as the image of a German ally and a marginal group of bandits that did not represent Ukrainians at all was actively imposed on the people accross the Communist countries. The problem was in the lack of evidence and in the fact that Soviet and Polish authorities realised that their propaganda about UPA was a lie and resemble the slander of the German Nazi who painted OUN-UPA as the army of communists commanded by Stalin. What’s more an international investigation would bring up the atrocities of NKVD troops, the security forces of communist Poland and the Polish police forces in Ukraine that were on German service during the occupation. Besides the both USSR and Communist Poland remembered their failure at Nuremberg trial where all their accusations that OUN-UPA was an an ally of Germany and a criminal Nazi organization were dismissed by this international court.

#134

First of all You forget the fact that after the collapse of the Soviet Union the Russian Federation claimed to be the sole legal successor of the USSR. It took conrol over all the nuclear weapon of the USSR, the Soviet reserves of gold, foreign currencies and all the money actives of all the enterprises, plants and factories of all the republics of the USSR that were stored on their accounts in the centarl bank in Moscow, all the real estate of the USSR abroad and so on and so forth. So according to the International law if Russia had claimed to be the only successor all the pretences towards the USSR automatically goes to the Russian Federation and Russian citizerns.

Secondly I am not a Ukrainian from the Western Ukraine, I have lived all my life in Kyiv and my ancestors are from the Kharkiv region and Crimea. You simply judge about OUN-UPA through the stereotypes that it enjoys popularity only in the West of Ukraine. It is a crime to accuse some organization or a nation of some genocides or atrocities when even the nation who as you think is supposed to be the victim of the genocide never claimed it officially. If you provides here private Polish resources that state that alongside with Ukrainians, the Soviet Union organized its own genocide against civilian Poles it means that you trust them and autamatically agree that Modern Russia is to be pursecuted for the genocide as Germany has been.

The prospects to go to prison usually come true for those who deliberately make up and spread slanderous accusations that are not officially recognized by any state or respectful international organization.

#135

This is, for someone totally divorced from it and all its history, an intriguing debate.

#136

I saw the book of “British” Alexander Korman that you’ve mentioned the several times. I saw that on the cover of the of the book he posted the very same photo I spoke about. It was the who first unearthed and ascribed the photo to the masssacre of Poles. If even the cover of the book contains lies whether is it worth taking into consideration its content?

The same is about the “anti-orange” site-forum you’ve posted. I don’t mind if people are “anti-orange”, I am “anti-orange” myself as well as anti-blue but this site should be called anti-Ukarainian. The bulk of it is devoted to announcing that the Ukrainian nation does not exist and Ukrainians has been invented by Germans or Austrians or Poles or Jews or whatever other enemies of “great” Russians. The same statements are made concerning our language. Of course all possible lies about Ukrainian insurgents just accomplish the picture.

You have no doubts that " the UPA killed the children by the most brutal unhuman way- the too much of testimoties of peoples that were mentioned above" when neither Poland nor any country in the world has never officially claimed that because the whole world community treats all the testimoties “of peoples that were mentioned above” as ones that have nothing to do with the truth.

And finally even Poles admit the fact that after Germans disbanded Ukrainian police forces in the region due to illoyality and sabotage they created new police forces only from Poles to assist Germans in the war against OUN-UPA. As a result of it Poles managed to kill at least 20000 Ukrainian civilians. So it is one of additional reasons why Poland will never dare to accuse any Ukrainians of anything.

#137

It is totally incorrect. The term nation or separate ethnic group does not equal the term state. There are lots of nations that still don’t have their separate states. And what out of it? No one denies the fact that they are nations. There were no any other states except Poland and Russia who refused to admit the Ukrainian ethnical identity. It was an official position of their governments for some time. Are you able to provide any other examples when some foreign states has officailly declared that the Ukrainian nation do not exist? As to the Ukrainian state it successfully existed in the XVI-XVIII as a form of Ukrainian cossack republic on the territories on the left bank of Dnieper which were out of the reach of Poles. It signed international treaties with different countries, joined and quitted military alliances, declared and waged wars. For instance Oliver Kromvel had a long coorespondence with Khmelnitskij negotiating alliance against Catholic states in Europe. Perhaps the fact that the Ukrainian state was not a monarchy and didn’t have its royal dynasty made it look somehow inferior in the eyes of its foreign coevals but nowadays that form of the state seems to be more progressive and much more free.

#138

A German document of November 25, 1941 (Nuremberg Trial O14-USSR) ordered:

“It has been ascertained that the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogration, are to be liquidated…”

#139

It is interesting, Chevan, who of us approves Nazi methods. You can’t stop repeating that the Ukrainians on the territories occupied by Poland underwent only slight cultural discrimination in the 1920-30s. However the situation was the following:

Polish cultural supression of Ukrainians which you admit was aimed at the eradicating Ukrainian culture, destroying Ukrainian libraries, churches etc. But the main goal was to disable Ukrainians to receive proper education and turn them into illitarate peasants who are uncapable to offer resistance and are capable to do only dirty manual job for Poles. The whole Ukrainian population under Polish governing was to be cut off from the international scientific and technological progress.

Apart from evident economic discrimination of all Ukrainians Poland took away land in Volyn and other regions from Ukrainian farmers and settled it with colonists. For instance the Polish population in Volyn increased more than twice due to the influx of Polish colonists in the 1930s. It should be noted that Volyn was a wooded region and even before the arrival of tens of thousands of the colonists the local Ukrainian population had been facing the extreme lack of farm land. After the Polish settlers with the help of their government and security forces illegally confiscated the best lands of Ukrainains, the indeginous population literally became paupers living from hand to mouth. Lots of Ukrainians were forced to emigrate to America or had to do some dirty job (11-12 hours a day) for Poles receiving misarable and humiliating pittances as wages.

So There are no doubts that the bigger part of Poles in Ukraine namely Polish colonists with the help of Polish army and police illegally confiscated the land from Ukrainian farmes and broke even Polish laws concerning private property. Therefore these Poles were criminals and thieves as they committed crimes by stealing property and using the stolen property in the full awareness of it.

#140

[b]The Polish policy towards Ukrainians in the 1920-30s perfectly resembles the plans of Nazi Germany towards the whole Eastern Europe. German Nazi planned to start colonization of newly acquired territories by German settlers after the full victory. They also wanted to disable local people to receive proper education and turn them into illitarate cheap work force for dirty manual work. German fashists didn’t plan to genocide the local population at once as it would have had devastating economic effects.
They wanted to use Eastern Europeans as cheap workers to do low qualified jobs. Nazi intended to start genocides only when the German population in the new territories became sufficient in numbers.

So the differnce between Poland of 1920-30s and Nazi Germany was that Germans only had plans when Poles had already started to realise the same plans towards Ukrainians.[/b]