The Ukrainian Insurgent Army

There is no ANY PROOBLEMS WITH THE LACK OF evidences: photo and testimonies.
If you PERSONALLY HAVE THE PROBLEMS -nobody could help you , neither me nor the Kovalski.
You simply blind to see the enourmouse materials of different authors ;).
I/m repeat it AGAIN - there were the pure political reasons ( right or wrong) do not recognise the Ethnic Volun mass slayuhter as henocide- nothing but more.
The firstly no one court in the world do not call the manies materials( tesimonies and photos) about mass slaughter of polish civils in Western Ukraine by the Ukraine nationalists OUN-UPA as the falsified.
Sec NO ONE court in the world did not called this materils as the Soviet or Nazy lie propoganda
I’ve never claimed that the OUN-UPA was the Nazy ally - but the methods that they used for the Ethnic clearising was even worst then Nazy used, and the ideological national basis ( Ukraine for the Ukrainians , Moskaly and Jews - go out or should be killed) is VERY CLOSE to the MAZY ideology.
The Fact thet some of interntional organisation after beginning of Cold war ignored the Nationalists meaning of UPA ideology - it was the pure political decigion - this is not refused the fact of ethnic slaughter in Volun , Galicia and ets.
So… if the politic motives aside - there is no any historical doubt the henocide REALLY WAS. And the pure political reason why the Nurenberg tribunal ignored this crime ( as it ignored also and manies crime of commited by the Soviet and Allies troops diring the war).
Indeed Kato you point is more than funny- you constantly blaiming the different source ( russian ukrainian,polish and ets) as the “Soviet propogandic slander” but YOU STILL DO NOT SHOW AS ANY SOURCE that get the infore that DOCUMENTALLY support your point .
So you could tell what you want about "slander " but we still hear nothing except the slander to AK and poles ( who colloborated with Nazy according you posts).

Cheers

No Kato - its obviously you nothing know about the conditions of the Soviet right’s collapse.
Tue - the Russian Ferderation succeeded al the foreign property of the USSR, wearpon bases, ambassies and ets - as the resault the RF was obligeded for the ALL the soviet international debts.
But NO ONE international law did not forced the RF to take the law obligations for the actions of Soviet gov.- therefore me who live all my lfe in Kuban have the EQUAL responsibility for the bolshevics crimes like and You who live in Kiev.:wink:
So you STRONGLY wrong about that the pretences to the USSR automatically goes to the Russian citizents- this is rough violation of the international law to blame the One state for the crimes of Another.( that would has the sequences).
As the resault - if this was possible the RF could get a thousands of court claims for the a billions compensations - but this do not heppends;)
Coz the RF is far not the USSR.
Some of people in different state actually try to spread the obligation of Germans after the war - to compensate the damage fo the relatives of victims- for ther Russia.
This is a stupid coz innthe cotrast with Germany where the Nazy come to the power ABSOLUTLY LEGALLY through the democratic elections - the bang of International bolshevicks in head of Trockij take the power through the bloody civil war ( the Ethnical genocide of RUSSIAN intelligencia( the Red Terror in 1918-1920) , and later the peasants ( the holodomor).
This group of people - who even lived in Russian Imperia a tiny part of its life ( and some of then even did not SPEAK russian like the Radeck) who get the financial support for the USA , Britain and Germany ( for instance the Trockij has got the 20 million of dollars from the New York banker Jakob Shift in 1917- the enourmous sum at that time).
The terror that they bagan immediatelly after take the power was aimed FIRSTLY and MAINLY agains the Ethnical Russian- This is a historical fact.
And the Russian people was the ethnic group that suffer much more then the others in this prospect.
So me , being the Russian ( as and any other russian who has no relatives in the Soviet gov) could not be guilt for the crimes of the non-russiam mafia in that time.
Thus the RF etically and Juridically is not gult for the bolshevic crimes.
BTW as the Ukrainians are not guilt for the Nikita Khrushev too;)
So the question of the courc claims for the compensatio from the RF is nothing but the political demagogy.( And in my previous post i just kidding about it - but it seems you did not understand it).
Indeed the any court claims immediatelly will arise the contr-investigation - who were the Bolshevics and who helped and sponsored them ?I.m sure the NO ONE from the finantial elite DO NOT WISH a such investigation. I hope you understan why.

You simply judge about OUN-UPA through the stereotypes that it enjoys popularity only in the West of Ukraine. It is a crime to accuse some organization or a nation of some genocides or atrocities when even the nation who as you think is supposed to be the victim of the genocide never claimed it officially.

I’m never claimed/blaimed the whole Ukrainian people Kato.
Do not be the …

I have the hard point agains the any nationalsis ( and Nationalist ideology at all) as the danger way for the any people- and the history enough good teachs us of it in example of UPA atrocoties above poles in 1943-44. You attempt to "justify " it like the Bolshevick too made it - is more then redicious.
If the bolshevics were the bastards who kille the people - does it mean the Nationalists who kille the people too - are better?
No . the nationalism ( like and nacism) is even more worst way of human history - and the WW2 history clearly proved it.

Well Kato thanks for the first true infor;)
Indeed i’ve never justified the Polish capturing the Ukrainian land after they win the war with Bolshevics in the 1920-21. In other thread i constantly dispute this fact with my polish friends - were the Western Ukraine and Belorus the Polish the legitime territories.
Sure not.
This is the Ukrainian territories wher e the poles ALWAYS were the minorities- inspite of the politic polonisation in 1920-30.
But if you try to “explain” us the Ethnic genocide by the political polonisation - you are wrong.Although i/m agree this politic was worst, but it was far form the genocide.
BTW what Ukraine “cut off technological and scienficic progress” do you mean?
As far as i know the technological and industry progress was ONLY in the Soviet Ukraine where were build the lot of factories, plants and institutes.
Does it mean for you the Soviet occupation were better then the Polish cultural oppressions;) ?

If believe the any Nazy archive documents does it mean we should believe the any Soviet NKVD ones that reported about killing of Ukrainians and its families by the UPA for “being suspected for the symphaty of Moskam” in 1945-1953?
And one more question, If the Bandera should be “liqudated” why has he so succesfully survived the death-camp?

Well Kato do you understand what do you do?
This is quite slander way to tell about the events that never were in practice but according your plans must be?
Man you are bother me. Its all right with health, mind?
I hope you understand you have to find VERY serious DOCUMENTARY supportion of future henocide of Ukrainian population by the Poles.
In other way we will consider you as the final slanderer and lier;)
Coz to compare the Nazy Germany and Poland and blaiming the Poland in "possible future "henocide - this is very Crazy… you cool Kato:D

And one more… question.
If you say that the German did not planned " to genocide the local population at once as it would have had devastating economic effects" - does it mean they did not planned the Holocaust - coz the mass killing of jews who were the good craftsman and specialists in some of fields?
Coz your point DIRECTLY refuce the official version of Holocaust - the detailed planned action of the mass slaughter of the millions of peoples inspite of the “devastating economic effect”:wink:
Cheers.

First of all I mentioned the word genocide referring to the palns of Germany towards the population of Eastern Europe. There are lots of hints at it in different sources regarding the creation of living space ifor Germans in the East.

Germans did plan to start colonization of newly acquired territories by German settlers after the full victory. They also wanted to disable local people to receive proper education and turn them into illitarate cheap work force for dirty manual work. German fashists didn’t plan to genocide the local population at once as it would have had devastating economic effects.
They wanted to use Eastern Europeans as cheap workers to do low qualified jobs.

So when Gerrman Nazi were only composing their racist plans, Poles were actively realizing and implementing the very same racist plans towards Ukrainians ( the influx of Polish colonists to Ukraine, total economic robbery of the indeginous population, confiscation of land and other private property from Ukrainians, consistent educational and cultural policy aimed at putting Ukrainians far behind Poles and other nations in their development and turning them into illiterate cheap work force. So the Polish policy in Ukraine was quite Nazi in its nature.

If you say that the German did not planned " to genocide the local population at once as it would have had devastating economic effects" - does it mean they did not planned the Holocaust - coz the mass killing of jews who were the good craftsman and specialists in some of fields?
Coz your point DIRECTLY refuce the official version of Holocaust - the detailed planned action of the mass slaughter of the millions of peoples inspite of the “devastating economic effect”:wink:
Cheers.

The number of Jews in Europe was only 6-7 millions You can’t compare it to the number of all the Slavonic nations. Jews were not better craftsman and specialists in any fields than other nationals. So killing 6-7 millions of Jews ( including children and elderly persons unable to work) couldn’t seriously effect the economy of the huge Nazi empire ( with several hundred millions of population). And if one remembers the fact that the Nazi “inherited” the jewish substantial financial and material fortunes it is not worth speaking about economic damages.

Of course the archives of NKVD contained data about their local agents who squealed on their countrymen dooming others for death and tortures. Are such people your heroes?

The documents demanded the liquidation functionaries of the Bandera Movement (not Bandera) was issued after Bandera’s arrest and it did not concern him. However, it concerned all the members and supporters of OUN as well as Bandera’s relatives. Two brothers of Bandera were tortured to death in a German prison.

No Kato - its obviously you nothing know about the conditions of the Soviet right’s collapse.
Tue - the Russian Ferderation succeeded al the foreign property of the USSR, wearpon bases, ambassies and ets - as the resault the RF was obligeded for the ALL the soviet international debts.
But NO ONE international law did not forced the RF to take the law obligations for the actions of Soviet gov.- therefore me who live all my lfe in Kuban have the EQUAL responsibility for the bolshevics crimes like and You who live in Kiev.:wink:
So you STRONGLY wrong about that the pretences to the USSR automatically goes to the Russian citizents- this is rough violation of the international law to blame the One state for the crimes of Another.( that would has the sequences).
As the resault - if this was possible the RF could get a thousands of court claims for the a billions compensations - but this do not heppends;)
Coz the RF is far not the USSR.

Some of people in different state actually try to spread the obligation of Germans after the war - to compensate the damage fo the relatives of victims- for ther Russia.
This is a stupid coz innthe cotrast with Germany where the Nazy come to the power ABSOLUTLY LEGALLY through the democratic elections - the bang of International bolshevicks in head of Trockij take the power through the bloody civil war ( the Ethnical genocide of RUSSIAN intelligencia( the Red Terror in 1918-1920) , and later the peasants ( the holodomor).

The responsibility for the actions of Soviet government as well as its debts still resides with the Russian Federation. The NSDAP didn’t win the elections in a legal way but Germany still pays for the past.

Having become Chancellor, Hitler foiled all attempts to gain a majority in parliament and on that basis persuaded President Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag again. Elections were scheduled for early March, but on February 27, 1933, the Reichstag building was set on fire.[27] Since a Dutch independent communist was found in the building, the fire was blamed on a Communist plot to which the government reacted with the Reichstag Fire Decree of February 28, which suspended basic rights, including habeas corpus.

This group of people - who even lived in Russian Imperia a tiny part of its life ( and some of then even did not SPEAK russian like the Radeck) who get the financial support for the USA , Britain and Germany ( for instance the Trockij has got the 20 million of dollars from the New York banker Jakob Shift in 1917- the enourmous sum at that time).
The terror that they bagan immediatelly after take the power was aimed FIRSTLY and MAINLY agains the Ethnical Russian- This is a historical fact.
And the Russian people was the ethnic group that suffer much more then the others in this prospect.
So me , being the Russian ( as and any other russian who has no relatives in the Soviet gov) could not be guilt for the crimes of the non-russiam mafia in that time.
Thus the RF etically and Juridically is not gult for the bolshevic crimes.
BTW as the Ukrainians are not guilt for the Nikita Khrushev too;)

The strongholds of Bolsheviks was the central regions of modern Russia, the original territory of Russian ethnicity. Bolsheviks’ terror was aimed against the adepts of the Tzar Russia that is the upper crust of the old society and some officers who resisted Bolsheviks ( it does not mean that these people were ethnical Russians as these people were very much cosmopolitic and often spoke foreign languages better than Russian ) They made up 1-2 per cent of Russian population and wanted to keep their previlages, status, property and money. One should remember that Don and Kuban cossacks claimed seperate ethnicity different from Russian one.
All the civil war was reduced to attempts of the upper crust of the old society and the officers of the Tzar army who formed so called white forces ( with huge military support on behalf Western states) to break through to the central original Russian regions (from Caucases, Baltik, Ukraine, Siberia) and crack down the mutiny. Bolsheviks would have failed to win unless 90% of ethnical Russians had eagerly supported them.

So the question of the courc claims for the compensatio from the RF is nothing but the political demagogy.( And in my previous post i just kidding about it - but it seems you did not understand it).
Indeed the any court claims immediatelly will arise the contr-investigation - who were the Bolshevics and who helped and sponsored them ?I.m sure the NO ONE from the finantial elite DO NOT WISH a such investigation. I hope you understan why.

Money does not shoot. The extent of foreign help to bolsheviks’ opponents ( White Forces) were tens of times more. And it was the most modern weapon and ammunition which was of more use in the war than the money which has yet to be exchanged for weapon.

I have the hard point agains the any nationalsis ( and Nationalist ideology at all) as the danger way for the any people- and the history enough good teachs us of it in example of UPA atrocoties above poles in 1943-44. You attempt to "justify " it like the Bolshevick too made it - is more then redicious.
If the bolshevics were the bastards who kille the people - does it mean the Nationalists who kille the people too - are better?
No . the nationalism ( like and nacism) is even more worst way of human history - and the WW2 history clearly proved it.

Unlike Ukrainian nationalism Russian Bolshevism and German Nazism was not aimed at the liberating these countries from foreign occuption. The comparison between Bolshevism and Ukrainian nationalism are laughable. All the people from illegal organizations fighting for the liberation against occupants can be called nationalists who kill people.

I repeat there are no poofs that UPA somehow violated the international law
and there are no official claims made about it. While the Polish colonists and Polish security forces who stole the land and were criminals even accorging the Polish laws.

You don’t want to understand that the state machines with other official ideologies different from the extreme ones can be much more oppressive and aggressive than groups of people with bellicose convictions.

Thus the RF etically and Juridically is not gult for the bolshevic crimes.
BTW as the Ukrainians are not guilt for the Nikita Khrushev too;)

None of Nikita Khrushev’s parents were Ukrainians and therefore he was not a Ukrainian.

Nikita Khrushchev was born in the village of Kalinovka, Dmitriyev Uyezd, Kursk Guberniya, Russian Empire, now occupied by the present-day Kursk Oblast in Russia. His father was the peasant Sergei Nikanorovich Khrushchev (d. 1938 of tuberculosis); his mother was Aksinia Ivanovna Khrushcheva. He had a sister two years his junior, Irina. In 1908, his family moved to Yuzovka (now Donetsk, Ukraine). Later, since he spent much time working in Ukraine, Khrushchev gave off the impression of being Ukrainian. He supported this image by wearing Ukrainian national shirts. However, he has personally stated that “I Myself Am Russian”.

Kato,

It would be nice if you could shortly explain what you think about the following document (see he scan). Do you know what it is?

Greetings, Egorka.

This is the project of Ukrainian constition drafted by OUN in 1939.

The photocopies of its full text can be found here

http://jerzy.io.com.ua/album49748

According to this document sovereign Ukraine should be a presidential republic.

It stipulated that Ukrainian citizenship was to be granted to all ethnical Ukrainians. People of other nationalities who (or whose parents) had lived in Ukraine since the first of August 1914 also received citizernship.
The persons married to citizens were to receive citizernship as well.
The constitution declared the gender equality. It guaranteed the free education to all the citizens.

Of course some Russians who don’t even understand the Ukrainian language properly traditionally claim that it is of Nazi spirit.
I would like them to point out any passages of it that can prove thier twaddling.

Are you sure, Kato??? Are you absolutely positivly sure about what you just have said about the principals of this OUN constitution?

If you have doubts you can read the text of this constitutional draft, and point out any deviation from my assessment.

This “twaddling” is talking about Fascist principles of this constitution project, not Nazist principles.
This twaddling has little relevance to this forum.

Though could you translate to English the first 2 articles of this OUN constitution, please?

Yeah, many criticals always read first two articles and then state it is fascist.

The two articles are the following:

Article 1

Ukraine is sovereign, totalitarian, professional-cooporative state that bears title Ukraine .

Article 2

The system of power in Ukraine is constructed in compliance with the principles of nationalcratia ( the only source of the power in Ukraine is the nation of Ukraine). Nationacratia envisages that the state is ruled by the nation on the basis of organized cooperation and solidarity of all the socially useful strata that are represented in the system of power.

The main principles of nationalcratia - national solidarity, the priority of the nation over state bureaucratic institutions, classes and parties.

By the way the word totalitarian was new and very popular at that time just like democracy today.

Yes, “Naciocratia” (or maybe “Nationcratia” : derived from words Nation and Cratos = power). I will ask for your explanation about this one later. As this concept (as well as it’s creator) is very important for understanding the nature of this constitution draft. But lets wait a bit, shell we?

Regarding article 1, you forget one word “autoritarian

So the article 1 reads fully as this:

Article 1
Ukraine is sovereign, authoritarian, totalitarian, professional-corporative state that bears title Ukrainian State.

In the article 2 you also omited few points. My correction in bold:

Article 2
The system of power in Ukraine is constructed in compliance with the principles of nationalcratia.
Nationacratia - power of Nation and State, which based on organized and solidary support of all social groups, … .

The main principles of nationalcratia - national solidarity, ideas of close interaction between social classes and political parties.

Do you agree with my remarks?

Regarding article 1, you forget one word “autoritarian”

Yes, but the modern definitions of autoritarism and totalitarism differs that is in modern terms the state can be either totalitarian or autoritarian. So we must realise that these words were used in the meaning different from the modern definition of these terms.

The system of power in Ukraine is constructed in compliance with the principles of nationalcratia.
Nationacratia - power of Nation and State, which based on organized and solidary support of all social groups, … .

The main principles of nationalcratia - national solidarity, ideas of close interaction between social classes and political parties.

Yes. I agree