Things Hitler could have done to win WWII

That wasn’t directed at you. I folded another thread into this one as I felt it was a bit redundant and in the wrong forum. And I am not just a participant in this forum, I am a moderator in it acting in the perceived site’s best interests. The original poster has expressed he was no major problems with it, so I would hope you wouldn’t either…

You argue that allied micromeddling their doctrine was some how important in underminding allied war efforts,

Um, no. That’s not quite what I argued. The “Tank Destroyer Doctrine” had nothing to do with “micromeddling” by political leaders. It was simply an overweening and wrongheaded approach to armored warfare by military ones that were inexperienced and possibly in a bit of a panic after the Fall of France. I do apologize for not making this clearer since you are obviously confused and your comments aren’t even close to the point I was making…

but Hitlers complete rejection of German military doctrine and replacing it with his own half assed seige mentality, is not relevant? This is an odd POV.

I never said it wasn’t relevant. I’m not even aware of making the comparison. But I do not recall Hitler having what can be described as a half-assed Siege mentality. I believe he was a willing adherent to mobile armored combined arms warfare and nudged his more conservative generals in that direction although he certainly isn’t responsible for “Blitzkrieg” tactics as that is a whole complex series of events. But I did mention that Hitler exhibited very flawed judgment on numerous occasions and routinely overruled his competent generals with his own incompetence of the “Austrian Corporal” school of warfare as his officers derisively referred too him as…

You comment on obsolete Axis tanks, but ignor that 1/3 of all allied tanks built during the war were light tanks and by defination obsolete, compared to medium and heavy tanks. Fact is all tanks can be useful if you know how.

Okay, so I’ll repeat myself for a third time. Compare the actual models in service during the critical periods of 1942 to 1945, and the Allies always had an overwhelming numerical advantage. What good would Hungarian, or even Italian, armor do for the Heer? Indeed, after (most of) Italy went over to the Allies, the remaining fascist formations under Wehrmacht control were rearmed with PzIVs and Panthers IIRC. A more accurate comparison is the actual numbers of AFVs on each side during -say- the Normandy campaign --where the Wehrmacht was heavily outnumbered and could only fight a holding action by bottling up the British with their armor, and the Americans with the highly defensible terrain of the hellish hedgerows. But they could hold neither indefinitely…

And for you last point about a “tank being a tank.” Yes, the French tanks captured after the Fall by the Wehrmacht were useful, but only for internal security operations and for cannibalization for the Atlantic Wall defenses. Most of the Italian, Romanian, and Hungarian armor was smashed on the Eastern Front, Africa, of in Italy proper. And while say French Souma tanks were better than nothing for the Heer defending Normandy right after the invasion, they were obsolete after 1942 and were made quick work of by Shermans, TD’s, and Bazookas in both Sicily and Normandy. So, clearly there is a world of difference between a PzIV Aus. H and a FT17 Renault. I’m pretty sure which one you’d prefer going into battle against T-34s in on the Eastern Front --or Shermans with in Normandy…

Most of the 19,000 tanks produced in 1944 were StugIII/JagpzIV/PzIV/or the heavies.If we break it down we have

~ 5000 tanks/Spguns based on Tiger/Panther chassie
~ 13,200 Tanks or SPguns base on the Pz III/IV chassie
~ 700 Sp guns based on Pz II/38t

Which is still almost nothing as their losses on the Eastern Front alone were astronomical. The production surge was to make good crushing losses in the USSR, North Africa, and for the coming D-Day invasion. This was followed up with the almost complete routing of the Axis forces in France and the losses of nearly all their heavy equipment…

In 1944 the Russians produced
~ 6000 light tanks or SPguns
~ 18,000 T-34 and SU AFVs
~ 5,000 heavy tanks and ISU AFVs

The Soviets produced more T-34s alone than almost all German AFVs combined? Not too mention US Shermans and other types.

Allied figures are rather obscure so some one else will have to supply them.

The other examples you site are anachdotal and thus not useful to this discussion.

Which examples specifically? Like the examples you posted that include German assault guns that were in some instances based on obsolete French AFV chassises and were made mince meat of during -say- the Battle of the Bulge?

I agree with the first point to an extent. I’ve never said the Sherman was a bad tank -it was a very good one and the Allies had the consideration of shipping the Axis and even the Soviets didn’t have. But that’s not to say that the Shermans couldn’t have been improved to the M4A3E8 76mm gun variant sooner than it was and a mix of 75mm (to attack infantry and battlefield fortifications) and 76mm gunned Shermans firing tungsten ammo (to counter panzers along with the tank destroyers) been sent to Normandy initially. Also, even a small number of Pershings in Normandy by August or September 1944 might have had an impact on both morale and battle beyond their numbers. I think the US Army even turned down the British offer of the 17-pounder gun, which could have made the Sherman “Easy-Eight” on par with even the Panther in firepower terms at least…

As for The Korean War - the Sherman M4A3E8 (which I think almost all were in the US Army inventory by the late 1940s) more than held their own against the T-34/76/85 in Korea as I think they had a kill ratio in their favor. Even though the Pershing/Patton killed the most T-34s of any tank and the British Centurion completely outclassed the T-34.

I think you were thinking of the M24 Chaffee Light Tank, which was initially the only US tank in Korea and was completely outclassed by the North Korean T-34s…

Yes, of course you’re right. :wink:
Actually what you suggest is as true as the suggestion about different approaches the Germans could have taken, for example start vast tank production as early as in 1940 instead of 1942. I’m pretty sure whatever the possibilities they had in production (just as the US had possibilities in armament) would have overblown their possibilities in armament. Yes, the allies put the Axis in the shadow regarding production, yet at the outbreak of war a double German tank arsenal (which is still way under their production rate in 1944, so at least very feasible) would have made a real shock.

As for The Korean War - the Sherman M4A3E8 (which I think almost all were in the US Army inventory by the late 1940s) more than held their own against the T-34/76/85 in Korea as I think they had a kill ratio in their favor. Even though the Pershing/Patton killed the most T-34s of any tank and the British Centurion completely outclassed the T-34.

I think you were thinking of the M24 Chaffee Light Tank, which was initially the only US tank in Korea and was completely outclassed by the North Korean T-34s…

Didn’t the Israeli’s use Fireflies against T-55’s somewhere in history?

It wasn’t just a question of production, but it was also a massive intelligence failure largely due to the Nazi racial policies as they believed the Slavic Soviets could never develop such a superior machine in the T-34/76. The Tiger, Panther, the upgunned PzIVs mounting the long barrel 75mm L/43 or L/48, and various tank destroyers mounting the same were largely a reaction to the onslaught of the T-34s and KV-1s and would not have come about before the Winter-Spring of 1942…

Didn’t the Israeli’s use Fireflies against T-55’s somewhere in history?

They used a “Super-Sherman” mounting a French made copy of the German 75mm long gun mounted in the Panther IIRC…

See this thread: http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6409

Nick I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

Working backwards, all the tank production I mentioned was new built production and did not include any of the ~4000 tanks that were captured and converted during the war. But as Steben pointed out since the German Blitzkrieg was sharpened on a tank force that was mostly Pz-I & II, it clearly points out that atleast the Germans knew how to use tanks no matter what there potential. In combat its the relative difference in the troop training and doctrine that determines success, not the number on one side vs the other.

Thats a western military doctrine/obession. We refer to it as bean counting. Pretty much every major oponent the Germans squared off against through the first two years of the war out numbered them in tanks and yet they the Germans still beat them. Clearly the number of tanks do not determine the success or failure of a campaign/battle.

Only people who focus on strategic wars of attrition, obsess with tank numbers , because they need the tank relative capability, as an fallable attempt to assign numerical value to quantity of tanks, so it all can be crunched up into some ‘science of war’ equation. Germans understood that ‘Art of War’ is the key to understanding and succeeding in war. So they had a doctrine based on ‘task orders’ assigned to lesser commanders and then giving them the resources and freedom of maneuver to excute their task at hand.

This is refered to as “Auftragstaktik”, which featured ‘untrammeled authority’ to allow freedom of command up and down the chain of command. When Hitler took over C-in-C position of the OKW and sacked his top Panzer Generals after the failure at the gates of Moscow in Dec 1941, he sent a chilling message up and down the line, that loyalty to the Furher was far more important than the doctrine of “Auftragstaktik”. Increasingly as Hitlers Politics took over , Military leaders were promoted based on party loyalty rather than command ability.

From that point on Hitler increasingly suffocated any operational maneuver and initiative, forcing all Division movement orders to only come from OKW…which also meant by mid war that the allies often knew what these divisions were ordered to do before they got the orders themselves, due to Ultra decrpts. His seige mentality and no retreat orders, went completely counter to the whole spirit and excution of “Auftragstaktik”.

This was the real turning point of the war. Before that the German strategy of avoiding a two front war by sequentially defeating there enemys through lighting campaigns of mobility to defeat the armies of their enemies, with a very cost effective doctrine; ruled the day. After this point Hitler locked Germany into a two front war of attrition it could not win , even without the benifit of this highly effective doctrine… She was doomed from that point on.

read more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics

http://www.ducimus.com/Archive/auftrags-oleary.htm

"Auftragstaktik is more than giving a mission to a subordinate and allowing him the latitude to execute it. Rather, it is the superior’s duty to specify the objective and the framework within which the subordinate has to accomplish the mission. The commander provides all the resources to carry out the mission.

This, in turn, means that execution itself becomes the executor’s responsibility. His skills, creativity and commitment will become the key elements of execution".

http://kotare.typepad.com/thestrategist/2009/02/more-on-auftragstaktik.html

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Wray/wray.asp

Auftrag = Art of “Delegation” ? :wink:
But indeed, local tactical freedom, hand in hand with quick telecommunication made a great effort.
IIRC, there was a major counterattack in feb 1943 led by Von Manstein (probably the biggest german military genius at the time) that exactly bundled all of the German succes formulas.

Between 13 January and 3 April 1943, an estimated 500,000 Red Army soldiers took part in what was known as the Voronezh–Kharkov Offensive.[1] In all, an estimated 6,100,000 Soviet soldiers were committed to the area, with another 659,000 out of action with wounds of varying severity. In comparison, the Germans could account for 2,200,000 personnel on the Eastern Front, with another 100,000 deployed in Norway. As a result, the Soviets deployed around twice as many personnel as the Wehrmacht in early February.[31] However, as a result of their over extension and casualties taken during their offensive, at the beginning of Manstein’s counterattack the Germans could achieve a tactical superiority in numbers, including in the number of tanks present—for example, Manstein’s 350 tanks outnumbered Soviet armor almost seven to one at the point of contact.[29]

As for the T34… The Germans were well aware of the tank, since it was in development in the same period as the germans were developing their machines as well on Russian testing grounds…
And I already mentioned that the western Allies too had superior armament and armour in the 1940 campaigns. The Germans simply didn’t win based on size and numbers. Never. Action and reaction speed was murdering on close targets, while strategical patience and control prevailed on larger scale.
You don’t win a war on numbers only, nor on a type of tank.

“Russians won because of their T34” is pure nonsense. The 1940 model, which was most present in 1941, still had an underpowered gun and a non ergonomic turret. And again, the Germans were aware of the shortcomings, stalking the enemy with movement, high rate of fire, hitting exhausts and suspensions and finally forcing the crews to squeeze their outmost inside the uneasy tank.

The germans made exactly the same error :
“Wir werden Sieger
durch unsere Tiger” (We will be victors thanks to our Tigers) …

Nevertheless, the T34 cannot be ignored as a great leap in design history, nor can the Tiger be ignored for it’s proven qualities in punching counterattacks.

Very sound points of general application to all wars.

Which also illustrate one of the periodic deficiencies in America’s military strength, being a focus on overwhelming firepower and surperiority of equipment at, sometimes, the expense of depth and quality of training and leadership.

The largest nations may have the most successful armies in terms of major wars won, but smaller nations often have more effective armies in terms of the successes they achieve against larger or better equipped nations.

Relative to the size of its enemies, Germany is an outstanding example of the latter in its early victories against in total vastly numerically superior enemies east, west, north and south because it was, as is implied by your comments, more attuned to and skilled in using what it had effectively from the study and application of the art of war than were its enemies. This is doubly impressive when one considers the many deficiencies Germany suffered in the crucial areas of transport and natural resources.

Against that is Germany’s spectacular failure to recognise the relationship between military capacity and industrial capacity, both for its own purposes and in its enemies’ capacities.

So, like the Japanese, the Germans were highly skilled in advancing their war militarily against often numerically superior enemies but wilfully blind to the wider issues of their and their enemies’ capacities to wage the war to a conclusion.

Hitler could have done a lot more to win WWII by recognising and dealing with the industrial aspects of his war and by recognising the industrial aspects of the USSR’s and America’s ability to wear him down and overwhelm him. Assuming, of course, that he was determined to be stupid enough to attack the first and declare war on the second, thus pretty much sealing his fate because of Germany’s inability to match the industrial capacity of two nations he didn’t need to fight, or at least not when he foolishly chose to fight them and fight them together.

Of course, the best thing Hitler could have done to win WWII was advance his suicide to the end of 1940, thus leaving professionally trained and competent military strategists and leaders to determine and wage the remainder of the war.

Or he could have used loyal Jews of modest to great ability in various disciplines or just as loyal soldiers to assist a non-anti-Semitic Germany, along with not diverting various precious resources to persecuting, transporting and exterminating Jews in Germany and especially in the occupied territories. Any organism that chews out its own guts has little prospect of survival.

That’s a rather weak argument. The essence of German success in WW2 was the ability to apply overwhelming force at a point of their choice, and move said point faster than the Allies could react to this. This was done by delegating command to the lowest practical level, cutting out many of the decision loops used by their opponents.
The entire thrust of US doctrine and equipment is to enable them to apply overwhelming firepower at a point of their choice, and to give them the maximum possible latitude as to where this point is. This is where the near obsession with guided weapons, navigation and communications comes from - it means even private soldiers can have an enormous amount of firepower on call at very short notice, acting as a massive force multiplier. This in turn means that to lose a conventional fight of any sort, the US forces have to be both very poorly led by the standards of everyone else out there and heavily outnumbered.

Which also illustrate one of the periodic deficiencies in America’s military strength, being a focus on overwhelming firepower and surperiority of equipment at, sometimes, the expense of depth and quality of training and leadership.

I don’t agree. The US as active element on the battleground was in a nutshell a small part of the Allied efforts in a 6 year-total. You are speaking more or less of the USSR instead (not at least about their monstreous artillery).

Relative to the size of its enemies, Germany is an outstanding example of the latter in its early victories against in total vastly numerically superior enemies east, west, north and south because it was, as is implied by your comments, more attuned to and skilled in using what it had effectively from the study and application of the art of war than were its enemies. This is doubly impressive when one considers the many deficiencies Germany suffered in the crucial areas of transport and natural resources.

Still, German success depended a lot on the failure of the Allies to put professional leadership and analysis on the playground.

Against that is Germany’s spectacular failure to recognise the relationship between military capacity and industrial capacity, both for its own purposes and in its enemies’ capacities.
So, like the Japanese, the Germans were highly skilled in advancing their war militarily against often numerically superior enemies but wilfully blind to the wider issues of their and their enemies’ capacities to wage the war to a conclusion.

Not so much failure to recognition of the capacity – Hitler never hided his awe for Britain and the US - but rather bad forsight in geopolitics and alliances. Accompanied by Hitler’s arrogant disbelief in longterm strategies.

Hitler could have done a lot more to win WWII by recognising and dealing with the industrial aspects of his war and by recognising the industrial aspects of the USSR’s and America’s ability to wear him down and overwhelm him. Assuming, of course, that he was determined to be stupid enough to attack the first and declare war on the second, thus pretty much sealing his fate because of Germany’s inability to match the industrial capacity of two nations he didn’t need to fight, or at least not when he foolishly chose to fight them and fight them together.
Of course, the best thing Hitler could have done to win WWII was advance his suicide to the end of 1940, thus leaving professionally trained and competent military strategists and leaders to determine and wage the remainder of the war.
Or he could have used loyal Jews of modest to great ability in various disciplines or just as loyal soldiers to assist a non-anti-Semitic Germany, along with not diverting various precious resources to persecuting, transporting and exterminating Jews in Germany and especially in the occupied territories. Any organism that chews out its own guts has little prospect of survival.

In summary: Hitler never should’ve invented national-socialism then in order to win the war? But what would the war be about then?

I disagree. (Well, I would, wouldn’t I? :smiley: )

The Americans (not that they are unique among the Allies or anyone else in having some terrible failures among some glorious victories) didn’t do too well at the Kasserine Pass or Buna in early contacts against Axis enemies, and both for the same reasons: poor leadership and untested troops.

The Germans hadn’t been tested when they started their assaults in Europe, but they didn’t have the same failures against Poles, French, British and Soviet forces, along with other minor irritants such as the Greeks, but they did considerably better than the Americans in the Americans’ first encounters with the Germans.

It didn’t work at the Kasserine Pass, or Buna, or in the Phillipines.

The difference between those failures and later American successes is not simply the doctrine or the availability of overwhelming firepower but, as ubc outlined, the training and quality of the troops and their leadership.

As was amply demonstrated by the turnaround Gen Eichelberger achieved with the virtually inert 32nd Div at Buna, when he converted it from a bunch of largely dispirited men pretty much lounging about the field to an effective fighting force which went on to take the Japanese positions it had stalled against under its previous leadership only a few weeks earlier. He did it with virtually no rest or reinforcements or significant improvements in weaponry or tactical capacity. It is one of, if not the, greatest achievements of a corps leader in any army anywhere ever in the field, and largely unknown and ignored because he was suppressed by MacArthur. To my knowledge, no American or any other Allied corps (or division down or army up) commander did anything similar in Europe or anywhere else during WWII, nor am I aware of a greater example of outstanding leadership by a corps commander who among other things inspired his troops by leading a patrol at platoon level against the enemy. http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/battles/battles.asp#XVIII

I think that ubc summed it up adequately with:

In combat its the relative difference in the troop training and doctrine that determines success, not the number on one side vs the other.

Doctrine is fine, but without properly trained troops is means nothing.

Try stoicism…

Working backwards, all the tank production I mentioned was new built production and did not include any of the ~4000 tanks that were captured and converted during the war.

Of course, as they were almost useless as anything other than tractors and gun turrets after 1942. Czech and French designs, too deficient for much more than infantry support even in the early part of the war. The Czech panzers were reliable and effective, but they were quickly obsolete.

But as Steben pointed out since the German Blitzkrieg was sharpened on a tank force that was mostly Pz-I & II, it clearly points out that atleast the Germans knew how to use tanks no matter what there potential. In combat its the relative difference in the troop training and doctrine that determines success, not the number on one side vs the other.

The German tank forces generally encountered small numbers of French tanks as the French had a completely different conceptualization of what an armored battle would be and spread their forces thinly across a wide front for infantry support accordingly. What armor they did mass, they sent charging headlong in an ill-advised thrust into Belgium to meet the perceived main German attack. In theatres such as the Belgian frontier, there were instances where French tanks bested the Germans and fought them to a temporary standstill. However, French armor was ill-suited for tank vs. tank combat in design, tactics, and command-and-control. The Germans were well aware of their own deficiencies and very few PzIs or IIs actually were in the spearhead. When numbers of French tanks were encountered, the Germans relied on PzIIIs, IVs, and various Czech types to quickly overwhelm them.

It should be noted that there were few instances where the French, or the BEF for that matter, deployed their armor in a concentrated front and counterattacks to cut off the German axis of advance were attempted. But when they did, most notably in De Gaulle’s attack and in the BEF counterattack using Matildas, they too caused panic in the German lines. But it was too little, too late.

Thats a western military doctrine/obession. We refer to it as bean counting. Pretty much every major oponent the Germans squared off against through the first two years of the war out numbered them in tanks and yet they the Germans still beat them. Clearly the number of tanks do not determine the success or failure of a campaign/battle.

Actually, you’re the one with the “obsession.” You’re repeating the typical myth that the Heer/SS was some unstoppable juggernaut that could only be defeated by massive numbers, and yet they could overcome such numbers using their mad skills of “Schwerpunkt.” While this was true for the first couple years, by the end of Barbarossa, the superiority of the Wehrmacht began to show cracks and in a battle of attrition or when encountering unexpected tactical situations they did not control nor initiate. That’s part of warfare and also a standard by which an army must be judged, not just how well they out-plan their initial enemies at the outset of a war where they control the initiative. In many instances, the German Army was often no better than their adversaries. Their adversaries caught up by 1942-43. Was either Patton or Zhukov any lessor than the German generals of their period?

You’re also repeating the myth of the monolithic Wehrmacht/Heer/Waffen SS in that you are implying the Wehrmacht was the same consistent, known quality from 1939 to 1945 when nothing could be further from the truth. The hard realities of defeats and battles of attrition had fundamentally changed the training of recruits and the tactics employed soldiers in the field by 1943 to a fundamentally defensive situation where they were forced to ‘play not to lose rather than win’ (to use a sports analogy). The ability to conduct large scale offensives using “Schwerpunkt” had been lost, and their adversaries -especially the US and Red Armies, were now far more capable on conducting the large battles of maneuver as they were completely or partially mechanized whilst the Germans still had an army of panzers ans well trained infantry followed by horse and oxes dependent on railroads…

Only people who focus on strategic wars of attrition, obsess with tank numbers ,

You mean like the “people” who won WWII. :slight_smile:

Only people who focuses on a narrow set of circumstances where the Wehrmacht was superior to their enemies at the start of the War are apologists for the losers. Schwerpunkt worked in small spaces and ideal tank country such as France. In the vast expanses of the Soviet Union, or against an ever more competent enemy such as the British Eighth Army, however it ‘blew its wad’ and ran out of steam…

…because they need the tank relative capability, as an fallable attempt to assign numerical value to quantity of tanks, so it all can be crunched up into some ‘science of war’ equation. Germans understood that ‘Art of War’ is the key to understanding and succeeding in war. So they had a doctrine based on ‘task orders’ assigned to lesser commanders and then giving them the resources and freedom of maneuver to excute their task at hand.

You’ve completely misunderstood their conceptualizations then. The reason Germany relied on “Schwerpunkt” was in a sense out of desperation. They needed to inflict a quick and decisive victory on France and Britain in 1940 as they knew they were fucked in a War of attrition. The French and the British knew this as well which is why they delayed the start of major operations for as long as they could. Both sides knew the Germans had the advantage in training, tactics, and experience in 1940 in mechanized warfare, which is why the French were hoping for a major defensive engagement that would bloody for the Germans and take away their one advantage in resources -a manpower ratio advantage of 2:1. They then hoped to go over to the offensive once their advantages in Naval power, raw materials, and industrial might was realized by 1941 and when Germany presumably would be isolated by blockade and diplomacy…

This is refered to as “Auftragstaktik”, which featured ‘untrammeled authority’ to allow freedom of command up and down the chain of command. When Hitler took over C-in-C position of the OKW and sacked his top Panzer Generals after the failure at the gates of Moscow in Dec 1941, he sent a chilling message up and down the line, that loyalty to the Furher was far more important than the doctrine of “Auftragstaktik”. Increasingly as Hitlers Politics took over , Military leaders were promoted based on party loyalty rather than command ability.

Um, it wasn’t Hitler that threatened both Rommel and Guderian with courts martial during their relentless drives for basically ignoring and countermanding orders to periodically halt their panzers in France during “Sickle Cut” to allow the infantry to catch up. There never was such a thing as complete "untrammeled authority as it was the general staff that allowed some tactical autonomy, but demanded overall control. It was only under Hitler that such a daring attack plan into France came into fruition. You can’t just take the lousy, incompetent Hitler you want to blame for the loss of the War without acknowledging that Hitler sort of knew what he was doing and was willing to take gambles for victory his generals weren’t in the beginning, for the most part, early on and he prodded his generals to “think outside the box” for Fall Gelb and Rot…

Secondly, Hitler was responding to the fact that there was little secret that his generals of Army Group Centre were the main yoke of anti-Nazi resistance in the German Army because it was they who began to realize that a strategic, complete victory over the Soviet Union was highly unlikely once the US entered the War. Also, what would anyone else have achieved as the Wehrmacht was fundamentally unable to supply its forces with the necessary gear to contend with the Russian winter? What difference did it make at that point? The die had been cast by the Winter of 1941. The Japanese Nonaggression pact had freed up Soviet forces from the Far East and the latest T-34s were now encountered in numbers shocking the Germans. What tactical freedom would alter the balance for this? And the German command was always centralized. otherwise how does one control and sync the actions of three massive army groups?

…From that point on Hitler increasingly suffocated any operational maneuver and initiative, forcing all Division movement orders to only come from OKW…completely counter to the whole spirit and excution of “Auftragstaktik”.

.

Then what was The Battle of Kursk all about? Are you implying that the Soviets knew the Enigma secrets, or even needed them, for that one? They were well aware of where the Germans were going to attack in their great do-or-die offensive merely by the massing of the forces and they simply countered it with massive works, armored counter thrusts, and an apocalyptic battle that was more to Ivan’s liking than it was Fritz’s. And the Red Army broke their ability to sustain a large battle of maneuver on the Eastern Front forever…

This was the real turning point of the war. Before that the German strategy of avoiding a two front war by sequentially defeating there enemys through lighting campaigns of mobility to defeat the armies of their enemies, with a very cost effective doctrine; ruled the day. After this point Hitler locked Germany into a two front war of attrition it could not win , even without the benifit of this highly effective doctrine… She was doomed from that point on.

Agreed.

You always have to be a pain in the arse. :slight_smile:

The Americans (not that they are unique among the Allies or anyone else in having some terrible failures among some glorious victories) didn’t do too well at the Kasserine Pass or Buna in early contacts against Axis enemies, and both for the same reasons: poor leadership and untested troops.

Well more the former, less the latter. US troops were indeed untested, but they were also somewhat well trained and equipped by the end of 1942. The more I read about Kasserine Pass, the more I lay the blame on possibly the singular worst commander to be placed in a position of responsibility greater than leading a latrine digging detail –General Fredenhall– who was notoriously terrible in terms of his inability to grasp the overall situation as he simply “froze,” much like in that Band of Brothers episode about Foy and the Battle of the Bulge. It should be noted that contrary to what you are saying, the battle was saved by another American General, Ernest Harmon, who was an observer that took control of the American side of the battle and effectively relieved Fredenhall. He stabilized the situation and prevented anything more than a localized German victory that was largely irrelevant in the end other than for forcing the US Army to make changes and become better under Patton (who I think is also overrated. Harmon was offered command of the ii Corp incidentally after the Pass, but turned it down fearing it would appear as if he stole Fredenhall’s job)…

The Germans hadn’t been tested when they started their assaults in Europe, but they didn’t have the same failures against Poles, French, British and Soviet forces, along with other minor irritants such as the Greeks, but they did considerably better than the Americans in the Americans’ first encounters with the Germans.

The Germans hadn’t been tested, but neither were their foes at that point. And you could argue that their Freikorp experiences against the Poles counted for something as did their experiences with an artificially capped and undersized army in the Reichswehr that had to use mobility to compensate for lack of numbers… :wink:

And could anyone call the defeat in six weeks in France as anything “better than the Americans” did in WWII?

It didn’t work at the Kasserine Pass, or Buna, or in the Phillipines.

Buna I can’t speak for, but at the Philippines, the Americans did pretty much what they intended. They blunted the Japanese assaults and inflicted tactical defeats on them and held out --albeit with MacArthur straying from War Plan Orange and botching things. But it mattered little as the plan as you well know was to hold out for a relief force, which would never come after Pearl Harbor (which wasn’t part of War Plan Orange :slight_smile: ). Not to defeat the Japanese decisively as they never had the resources to do so…

The difference between those failures and later American successes is not simply the doctrine or the availability of overwhelming firepower but, as ubc outlined, the training and quality of the troops and their leadership.

The problems were that the US Army was less than 200,000 strong in 1939 and expanded to a projected force of 12,000,000 by 1942 (I can’t recall the actual number of soldiers by the end of 1942, but they never quite got there). That’s something the Germans could never do, so obviously they had to win out of the gate…

As was amply demonstrated by the turnaround Gen Eichelberger achieved with the virtually inert 32nd Div at Buna, when he converted it from a bunch of largely dispirited men pretty much lounging about the field to an effective fighting force which went on to take the Japanese positions it had stalled against under its previous leadership only a few weeks earlier. He did it with virtually no rest or reinforcements or significant improvements in weaponry or tactical capacity. It is one of, if not the, greatest achievements of a corps leader in any army anywhere ever in the field, and largely unknown and ignored because he was suppressed by MacArthur. To my knowledge, no American or any other Allied corps (or division down or army up) commander did anything similar in Europe or anywhere else during WWII, nor am I aware of a greater example of outstanding leadership by a corps commander who among other things inspired his troops by leading a patrol at platoon level against the enemy. http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/battles/battles.asp#XVIII

I agree, and in some respects, MacArthur reminds me of Stalin in his overall attitude regarding his subordinates in that he needed brilliant generals like Eichelberger to win for him just as Stalin needed brilliant tacticians such as Zhukov, but he immediately also needed to discredit them or suppress their achievements as they would be seen as potential rivals for both glory and position…

I think that ubc summed it up adequately with:

Doctrine is fine, but without properly trained troops is means nothing.

Of course. But even relatively well trained troops who are well led at the junior officer level can still be put into a meat grinder by extremely poor senior leadership of “dead wood”. Fortunately, Gen. Fredenhall was more the exception than the rule though. And the US Army did get the better, aggressive commanders to rise to the top. And he is also very easily to slag as he was not just completely incompetent, but also a bit of a corrupt and cowardly cunt who deserves little sympathy for his paralysis during the Kasserine Pass episode as he treated subordinates terribly and was more concerned with building a massive command bunker impervious to everything, which sapped up badly needed US combat engineers and resources for several weeks and probably cost hundreds of lives to mines and the lack of battlefield fortifications…

Nick you really are a card, so I will avoid debating with you since you seem to resort to personal insults as a substitue for content…and your a moderator?

You were the one claiming that German production was a ‘mere drop in the bucket’ and this contributed to their defeat. I merely showed that this was not only untrue but not really relevant to victory or defeat.

Some points of interest for those of us who actually study these issues indepth.

In the first weeks of Barbarossa , Army groups south encountered and defeated two entire Soviet mechanised corps which were equipped with a significant number of T-34 and KV-1. Read Glantz “Fourth Art of War Symposium-Intial Period of War on the Eastern Front”. These were defeated by operational maneuvers that cut these mechanized corps off from their LOS and Command. Since the Germans intell and recon flights were on there game, they knew the position of all major Soviet units with 24 hours of their movement. The Russians had 2272 tanks [of which 576 were T-34/KV tanks] while Panzer Group 4 had 636 Panzer II/III/IV. Its also important since its considered one of the largest tank battle of the war. Glantz reports that contray to popular history, 500 of the Russian T-34/kv were grouped into 3 tank divisions which were hammered and defeated in a matter of days by a much smaller Panzer force. Clearly this reinforced the notion that relative tank numbers didn’t determine success or failure in modern warfare.

In reviewing the battles in France none of the allied counter attacks mounted to anything more that minor setbacks and since the allies were so deeply engadged in the North, they could have never made anything operational out of these pinpricks. BTW the bold German maneuver was Mansteins, plan not Hitlers. He had rushed OKW to produce a plan after Poland invasion and gave them a month or two to prepare. This is insufficent time to generate a new plan so they just dusted off and modified the Schlieffen plan , which was the best they could do in such a short time.

Manstein had presented his proposal, but they could not change plans at that time. With worsening winter this invasion was put off several times, which allowed time to reconsider the plan. Hitler demanded a push through Beligum but Halder was pushing Mainsteins plan. When the original plans fell into Allied hands, every one agreed that Mansteins plan was the way to go since , if the alllies responed as was expected, they would insert themselves into an impossible situation which would turn the sickel cut maneuver into a campaign winning maneuver.

Um, show me one single insult I’ve made against you. You’re the one making comments over and above what has been posted. And you should talk! There are several instances here where you essentially paraphrase me by completely rewriting what I said into almost “strawman” territory instead of just quoting me and countering the points you disagree with!

And yes, I am a “moderator,” what is your specific complaint? That I don’t totally agree with you? I don’t totally disagree either. You raise some good points, but you’re taking the whole Schwerpunkt-is-god thing too far…

BTW, if you’re “done debating with me.” why did you make this post?

You were the one claiming that German production was a ‘mere drop in the bucket’ and this contributed to their defeat. I merely showed that this was not only untrue but not really relevant to victory or defeat.

You did did you?

Which historical source can you show that makes any sort of specific conclusion similar to yours? Because I’ve never read, seen, or heard anything even remotely drawing the same conclusions you are attempting too. In almost every modern “total War,” the industrialized nation will defeat the one that is lessor so in attrition…

Some points of interest for those of us who actually study these issues indepth.

In the first weeks of Barbarossa , Army groups south encountered and defeated two entire Soviet mechanised corps which were equipped with a significant number of T-34 and KV-1. Read Glantz “Fourth Art of War Symposium-Intial Period of War on the Eastern Front”. These were defeated by operational maneuvers that cut these mechanized corps off from their LOS and Command. Since the Germans intell and recon flights were on there game, they knew the position of all major Soviet units with 24 hours of their movement. The Russians had 2272 tanks [of which 576 were T-34/KV tanks] while Panzer Group 4 had 636 Panzer II/III/IV. Its also important since its considered one of the largest tank battle of the war. Glantz reports that contray to popular history, 500 of the Russian T-34/kv were grouped into 3 tank divisions which were hammered and defeated in a matter of days by a much smaller Panzer force. Clearly this reinforced the notion that relative tank numbers didn’t determine success of failure in modern warfare.

Um, LOL. Then why didn’t the Germans defeat the Soviets at Kursk? That was also Manstein’s plan. :wink: It’s funny how you keep bringing in these anecdotes. However, the Germans failed to defeat the Soviets at the gates of Moscow even before you claim that Hitler ruined it all for them. Why is that?

BTW, which source are you citing the above information from since if you’re going to insert specific facts and figures, you ought to link them. Secondly, at the beginning or Barbarossa, a massive surprise attack, the Soviet Red Army was in complete disarray due largely to Stalin’s orders preventing most units from going on high alert despite the fact that it was painfully obvious to just about every semi-competent Soviet commander that a general offensive was imminent. So, on the one hand you’re concluding that it was essentially “all Hitler’s fault” the Heer was defeated on the Eastern Front, but yet the Red Army can claim that it was Stalin’s dictatorial military incompetence that forced the Red Army to drop their adherence to “Deep Battle” (openly, many commanders such as Zhukov still did in private). He also prevented them from going on high alert and preparing a coherent defense against the Germans in 1941 for fear of “provoking” the Fritzes. This even though Stalin had several spy rings and a highly placed agent in the Wehrmacht telling him War was imminent IIRC…

So if in your eyes the Wehrmacht/SS can lay the blame for their failures at the feet of Hitler, then the Soviets must be able to also lay the blame for the catastrophe that befell them in the Spring and Summer of 1941 at the feet of Stalin!

In reviewing the battles in France none of the allied counter attacks mounted to anything more that minor setbacks and since the allies were so deeply engadged in the North, they could have never made anything operational out of these pinpricks.

Right! I just said that! See, we do agree on something other than Hitler was an idiot.

BTW the bold German maneuver was Mansteins plan not Hitlers. He had rushed OKW to produce a plan after Poland invasion and gave them a month or two to prepare. This is insufficent time to generate a new plan so they just dusted off and modified the Schlieffen plan , which was the best they could do in such a short time.

Manstein had presented his proposal, but they could not change plans at that time. With worsening winter this invasion was put off several times, which allowed time to reconsider the plan. Hitler demanded a push through Beligum but Halder was pushing Mainsteins plan. When the original plans fell into Allied hands, every one agreed that Mansteins plan was the way to go, since if the alllies responed as was expected, they would insert themselves into an impossible situation which would turn the sickel cut maneuver into a campaign winning maneuver.

I never said it was “Hitler’s” “plan.” I said Hitler forced his general staff to come up with new ideas. I agree Manstein is the main one deserving credit, but the plan was also tweaked by Halder and others as I’ve said previously. It should be said that it was also the plan of many generals to talk Hitler out of an invasion of France. Everything else said is correct – although it should be said that in addition to the French expecting a Schlieffen-redo, they feared a German alternate attack into the Low Countries (which of course happened) and that it would be both politically unacceptable to allow those nations to fall while French forces stood idle. The French command assumed the Germans would also fortify these areas complicating a serious French offensive into Germany, primarily through Belgium, into the Ruhr Valley in the second half of 1941 or early 1942…

Originally Posted by ubc
Nick you really are a card, so I will avoid debating with you since you seem to resort to personal insults as a substitue for content…and your a moderator?

…Leave my friend Nick Alone!~He’s more a man than you ever will amount to be…:army:

Herman, leave ubc alone!

Treason!!!

Damn Swiss spy rings!! :smiley:

But the massive German preparations weren’t exactly a secret and according to Wiki, and I think another source I’ve read (the famous historian author escapes me), Zhukov pretty much knew where the shoe was going to drop…

even if germany won a few more battles
the war would still have been lost for them

Only people who focuses on a narrow set of circumstances where the Wehrmacht was superior to their enemies at the start of the War are apologists for the losers.
this is insulting to anyone who has study one side or another side of a war. In addition refering to anothers point of view as
myth
is equally insulting.

Your painting with a very wide brush with such generalisations that when you include such insulting comments, you are no longer discussing the post or thread , but arguing boardering on flaming. When its common knowledge that you are the moderator, you set the tone for the thread and the board in general .

I have no time for argument. In that last post of mine only the first sentence refered to you and as such I used your name. The rest was to the discussion atlarge which I indicated and also referenced. Its in the post.

Yes Stalin is equally to blame for Soviets defeat in Barbarossa, while Hitler is to blame for Germanys defeat at the gates of Moscow. It was his unrealistic schedule that had the Wehrmacht defeat the Red Army by Smolensk, a mistake that he further compounded by diverting the main emphasis of the invasion from Moscow to the flanks. Anyone who has studied the Blitzkrieg in its excution would have know that [as was the case with the counter attacks by the allies in France 1940], the Soviets were too committed to forward defence, to mount any effective counter offensive, so the flanks were no were near as vulnerable as Hitler feared.The Kiew operation was a waste of time and resources.

However reviewing Soviet prebarbarossa wargames its clear they had not understood the sheer increase in tempo of operations that this new method of fighting implied. The Germans achieved in a matter of days, what the soviet 1940 wargames assumed would take weeks.

BTW Mansteins Kharkow -Kursk operation was supposed to sequential excuted in April May 1943. Instead Hitler intervened and tried to turn such an operational maneuver into a summer offensive. But the operational maneuver was based on the fluid situation in April 1943 , not the summer when the Soviets knew where Hitler intended to attack and had months to prepare for it. The Soviets had their own share of spys in the west.