If you would knew the history , i doubt you call this complicated process as the unreasonable hostility
But this is whole another thread.
He-he, the jewish question keeps comming up… I am looking forwad to join the discussion… 
The my post from the another section ( which were removed)
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=96122#post96122
Well sorry , i was too much emotional.
And who did tell you that I MEAN ALL CROATIAN people?
I just mentioned those who fought with Nazy in Stalingrad ( And i’m sure about my words).
And you wrong … Tito was not pure croat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito
Josip Broz was born in Kumrovec, Croatia, then part of Austria-Hungary, in an area called Zagorje. He was the seventh child of Franjo and Marija Broz. His father, Franjo Broz, was a Croat, while his mother Marija (born Javeršek) was a Slovenian.
He was at least one -half slovac ( BTW the jews has the theory that the national hereditery define via mather line)
On one point I do agree with you however…it doesnt matter how they died, what really matters is how they lived…they fought ernestly and honorably, against all odds, to the bitter end, for a dream of liberty…that is what makes them warriors worthy of recognition.
Well lets recall the some events of “honored fight” for independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaša
The atrocities against non-Croats started on 27 April, 1941, when a newly formed unit of Ustaša army massacred the largely Serbian thorp of Gudovac (near Bjelovar).
…
The Ustaša gangs ravaged villages across the Dinaric Alps to the extent that the Italians and the Germans started expressing their horror. By 1942, General Edmund Glaise von Horstenau had written several reports to his Wehrmacht commanders in which he expressed his dismay at the extent of the Ustaša atrocities, which actually preceded the Final Solution. These were corroborated by those of Field Marshal Wilhelm List.
…
By the end of 1942, the news about the Ustaša atrocities in Jasenovac and elsewhere had also spread among the Croatian population. Noted writers Vladimir Nazor and Ivan Goran Kovačić escaped from the Ustasha-held territory to join the Partisans, and were followed by others.
It’s must be so romantic to kill the non-Croatians civils with “dreaming for liberty”
But i agree we need to separate the Ustaša and Domobran. The last was rather the home army and not participated in atrosities ( at least not so much cases)
Besides before they came to Stalingrad this unit was mentioned in an OKW comunique for capturing 5000 Soviets while on the move between Voronezh to Stalingrad as a part of the 6th army…and the Soviets had actually preffered to surrender to fellow slavs rather than germanic agressors due to a much better treatment received than from the latter.
I heared the romanians treated more soft with the soviet POWS, but THOUGH they ( and all other German allias) supported the german policy of henocide in occuped territories.
Cheers.
Ok, well, I do thank you for responding and I do apologise…for not quite understanding your angle upon this matter.
You are a Russian that is in emotional distress due to the fact that some Croats would come to your back yard and kill your own people for no reason whatsoever other than some dream of liberty for themselves…but at the same time imposing slavery to your Soviet Union aiding ultimately a sick ba*tard like Hitler.
But please understand that if you attack a group of Croats with unsubstantiated, biased, and hurtful claims I will respond for the same reasons that you might if someone attacked your own.
I guess what you haven’t relised so far, is the general political structure of the relationships in the era and region, and that the Russian dominated Soviet Union imposed politically upon my people the Croats.
Long story short lets just say that Croatia was thrown into a Serb dominated Yugoslavia by the winners of world war one…Russia was a part of that being a part of the winners.
Russia has undergone many changes during the revolution but its major political attitude towards Croatia itself was unchanged. (it was allied with Serbia)
Till this point Croatia was in fact a part of empires over which it had no control over for about some 900 years and during all that time we were opressed to various degrees as a whole people by whomever happened to be in charge of us. And we have always as a people tried to brake away from such foerign influence over our very souls.
Before the outbreak of hostilities (1941) in the Yugoslav kingdom of the Serb Karadjordjevic dynasty imposed many changes that weakened the Croats politically. The Yugo governament made drastic measures for Croats so much so that many had emigrated to America, Australia or New Zaeland (a continued trend since the Austro-Hungarian regime actually)…in respect to that thinning of Croat population there was a massive influx of Serbs into Croatia thus strengthening their positions for a more thorough controll over the area. Our language was twisted and reshaped by the authorities into a Serbo-Croat, ba*tard version of itself and lines between the races were cohersedly blurred, our songs were banned our gatherings were prohibited, our politicians were assassinated in plane sight at a the Parliment in Belgrade…the list goes on.
So the people of Croatia were pissed and ready for whatever change…and here comes a time in the European region of another type of “liberty” style revolution for countries, where my people saw a glimpse of hope for our own betterment.
The reason we saw the Germans as an opportunity for freedom is that everyone else said no to us…Soviets included…and thus condemned us to a continuation in the serfdom to the Serbian Yugoslavija. At the beginning it either wasn’t quite evident to my people that the Germans would backstab us or it was a calculated risk by choosing the lesser evil and at least try and make a basis for change for later on.
Much bitterness cultivated by constant abuse made some of those Croats do it all…after all it was done to us by others so why not reciprocate in a Macciavellian way.
(not that I approve of it being done)
On another point you are right you never said that you ment that the Whole Croatian people did or deserved anything, but from my perspective that the soldiers of the 369. didn’t just come out of nowhere and they were just a simptom of a deep rooted problem in which the winners of both world wars took a part as both cause and prolongers… it was weather intentionally or not implied by you.
Yes, you are also correct that the Jews do have although not a theory, but a custom to view such things thru maternal ancestry. And if Tito was Jewish then he would be Jewish first and Croatian later in the eyes of a Jew…but that is not how the rest of the world usually regards the matter.
If you have been born on the soil of Croatia and have lived there for however long legally, and your parents are Croatian citizens that makes you automatically a Croat of whatever desent. If your Father is Croat citizen and race and your mother a Croatian citizen of Slovenian descent and you were born in Croatia it makes you Croatian.
Besides I never discuss racial purity of individuals as it has no factors on real life…at least thats the way I see it.
Could you tell me if you have any source that claims that the Croats of the 369. were killing civillians at any part of their service in the USSR? Especially around their stay in Stalingrad while they fought in the actions around the Red October factory.
And please lets differentiate between armed militia and true, non combatant, civillians…and also not individuals that have done so(cases of which unortunately we find on all sides) but as a whole unit.
Now, you have apologised before and said that you lashed out in anger and I accept your appology…I am writing on about all this not because I am trying to lash out at you, but because I figure you might want to know why it happened and to inform you that we Croats of today do not venerate killers of anyones civillians your own included.
Well , my appologies too Vukodlak. i have to say i have no intention to touch you rnational feelings.
But please understand that if you attack a group of Croats with unsubstantiated, biased, and hurtful claims I will respond for the same reasons that you might if someone attacked your own.
But my “biased hurtful” claims are based on the real historical fact of colloborationism with the most unhuman Nazy regime.
Owing to you i have read a more infore about Croatian 369 infantry division in Stalingrad.
And i/m agree they were a good soldiers and even the german command had appreciated it. This division were fully destroyed in the Stalingrad, but this was not its guilt.
I guess what you haven’t relised so far, is the general political structure of the relationships in the era and region, and that the Russian dominated Soviet Union imposed politically upon my people the Croats.
Long story short lets just say that Croatia was thrown into a Serb dominated Yugoslavia by the winners of world war one…Russia was a part of that being a part of the winners.
Oh really bolshevic Russia being a part of winners of WW1? I didn’t know it.
Russia has undergone many changes during the revolution but its major political attitude towards Croatia itself was unchanged. (it was allied with Serbia)
Well i heared the point about Russian solidarity with Serbia at least during NATO agression of 1998-99. I don’t wish to discuss your hatred to the Serbs( this is too delicate problem and whole other thread) .
Till this point Croatia was in fact a part of empires over which it had no control over for about some 900 years and during all that time we were opressed to various degrees as a whole people by whomever happened to be in charge of us. And we have always as a people tried to brake away from such foerign influence over our very souls.
And did the “foreign influence” force you to colloborate wiht Nazy Germany and Italy? Moreover the did the Serbs foregn influence force the Croatia took the active part in war on the Axis side. ( battle for Stalingrad for instance)
Before the outbreak of hostilities (1941) in the Yugoslav kingdom of the Serb Karadjordjevic dynasty imposed many changes that weakened the Croats politically. The Yugo governament made drastic measures for Croats so much so that many had emigrated to America, Australia or New Zaeland (a continued trend since the Austro-Hungarian regime actually)…in respect to that thinning of Croat population there was a massive influx of Serbs into Croatia thus strengthening their positions for a more thorough controll over the area. Our language was twisted and reshaped by the authorities into a Serbo-Croat, ba*tard version of itself and lines between the races were cohersedly blurred, our songs were banned our gatherings were prohibited, our politicians were assassinated in plane sight at a the Parliment in Belgrade…the list goes on.
So the people of Croatia were pissed and ready for whatever change…and here comes a time in the European region of another type of “liberty” style revolution for countries, where my people saw a glimpse of hope for our own betterment.
Well Vukodlak thanks for the introduction into the Croatian history. I can inderstand your feeling endeed.
But tell me please what was a “tipe of liberty” when the Croatian VOLUNTARILY joined to the Nazists whose the main aim was the cupturing and enslaving (and even murdering ) the WHOLE other peoples in the world?
The reason we saw the Germans as an opportunity for freedom is that everyone else said no to us…Soviets included…and thus condemned us to a continuation in the serfdom to the Serbian Yugoslavija. At the beginning it either wasn’t quite evident to my people that the Germans would backstab us or it was a calculated risk by choosing the lesser evil and at least try and make a basis for change for later on.
I could understand you , but i/m doubt that some pf you people did not see who was Nazy? Do you doubt, please read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
Jasenovac death-camp ( one the worts capm in Eastern Europe) was established by the Ustaša (Ustasha) regime of the Independent State of Croatia in August 1941. It was dismantled in April 1945. Unlike other concentration and extermination camps, in Jasenovac the main victims were ethnic Serbs, whom Ante Pavelić considered the main racial enemy of NDH, although other groups, like Jews and Gypsies, were also the victims there, as well as some Bosniaks and Croats.
As you can see dear Vukodlac, the Croatian Ustaša took active part ( and importaint role ) in the race henocide of other people. Is it not strange for you that they fight for independence from Ugoslavia by the such unhuman way?( OK they killed the Serbs - i can understand, but why did they kill the jews and others?;))
On another point you are right you never said that you ment that the Whole Croatian people did or deserved anything, but from my perspective that the soldiers of the 369. didn’t just come out of nowhere and they were just a simptom of a deep rooted problem in which the winners of both world wars took a part as both cause and prolongers… it was weather intentionally or not implied by you.
Yes, you are also correct that the Jews do have although not a theory, but a custom to view such things thru maternal ancestry. And if Tito was Jewish then he would be Jewish first and Croatian later in the eyes of a Jew…but that is not how the rest of the world usually regards the matter.
If you have been born on the soil of Croatia and have lived there for however long legally, and your parents are Croatian citizens that makes you automatically a Croat of whatever desent. If your Father is Croat citizen and race and your mother a Croatian citizen of Slovenian descent and you were born in Croatia it makes you Croatian.
So if you have the Serbs parents and and was born ( and live) in the Croatian Kraina so who are you Serb or Croatian? According your logic you must be Croat becouse you parents has a Croatian citizenship. So why do you need the blood civil war if the all things are so simple?
Besides I never discuss racial purity of individuals as it has no factors on real life…at least thats the way I see it.
Could you tell me if you have any source that claims that the Croats of the 369. were killing civillians at any part of their service in the USSR? Especially around their stay in Stalingrad while they fought in the actions around the Red October factory.
And please lets differentiate between armed militia and true, non combatant, civillians…and also not individuals that have done so(cases of which unortunately we find on all sides) but as a whole unit.
No i have no sources about atrosities of 369 croatian infantry division in Stalingrad. And i have to agree they treated the soviets POWs better then nazy.But they fought for the Nazy though, whome aim was a henocide of whole peoples population. And i/m not sure the other Croatians units were not guilt in the atrocities in the East .
Now, you have apologised before and said that you lashed out in anger and I accept your appology…I am writing on about all this not because I am trying to lash out at you, but because I figure you might want to know why it happened and to inform you that we Croats of today do not venerate killers of anyones civillians your own included.
I was not anger at Croatian Vukodlak. I was a little irritate of your naive romantic presentation the cruel battles in the Croatia in 1941-45 as the “stragle for independece”. There were NO holy side in that time.
I know the USSR made a lot dirty things for the Eastern Europe. But this also don’t justify the colloborations with Nazy some of this states.
IMO the each people is deserved its fate
Cheers.
Thank you for taking time to understand and then even answering.
I agree with you that the Pavelic\NDH regime was as cruel, vindictive and utterly deadly for anyone around us and ourselves as well. The very beginning of it as a movement was embraced by the people because it played on the national sentiments of decent people…they wanted a country of their own and they wanted it NOW (so to speak). Once the NDH governament was in power and kept there by the military presence of both German and Italian troops for the whole duration of the war because the people realised how badly they were played for fools.
I would like for everyone to note that there are some official German polls of the time stated that in 1941 only 14% of the population of Croatia was truly supportive of this New order of things…later on that support dwindled down to a mere 4%. Unfortunately those were enough for the atrocities.
Croatia was also one of the first Countries that fielded an armed resistance partisan force in Europe. It might be interesting here to mention that the First true Croatian president, Franjo Tudman, was one of Titos partisans and a general at that. That never stopped the modern Serbs to call this finally truly independent Croatia an offshoot of the Nazi regime though.
[/QUOTE]
Oh really bolshevic Russia being a part of winners of WW1? I didn’t know it.[/QUOTE]
Hey, Russia was allied to France, England and America in both of its Imperial and Bolshevist variants…and a key factor in that victory as well. I think I read this in Rommells “Infantry Attack” that it was in essence only when Russia entered the war that the germans having to comitt more troops to the east that their efforts in France crawled to a halt. Dont sell yourselves short on that Victory bro.
[/QUOTE]
Well i heared the point about Russian solidarity with Serbia at least during NATO agression of 1998-99. I don’t wish to discuss your hatred to the Serbs( this is too delicate problem and whole other thread) .
[/QUOTE]
This friendship between your two countries has its roots since world war one. And I dont hate Serbs…some of my best friends are Serbs. I just hate the Milosevic-Karadjic regime that was using the same methods Hitler did in this last war. But as you say it is a matter of another thread somwhere more appropriate perhaps.
[/QUOTE]
And did the “foreign influence” force you to colloborate wiht Nazy Germany and Italy? Moreover the did the Serbs foregn influence force the Croatia took the active part in war on the Axis side. ( battle for Stalingrad for instance)
[/QUOTE]
Well, yes, it did…denying someones freedom results in bitter resentment followed by uprisings, and other foerign entities will use that to their advantage as it is a classical example of “Divide et impera!” (divide and conquer).
Now the volonteers were willing at first, but as the troops were detached from Croatian HQ and pretty much given up to the respective German and Italian high commands the Croatian troops didnt exactly have a choice of where to go. They were considered as Croatian only in name by their German and Italian masters.
[/QUOTE]
Well Vukodlak thanks for the introduction into the Croatian history. I can inderstand your feeling endeed.[/QUOTE]
You are quite welcome. And I am glad you understand me and more importantly, us, better.
[/QUOTE]
But tell me please what was a “tipe of liberty” when the Croatian VOLUNTARILY joined to the Nazists whose the main aim was the cupturing and enslaving (and even murdering ) the WHOLE other peoples in the world?
[/QUOTE]
The only available option that was to be achieved through action rather than passive or only political resistance while the nation as a whole groans in suffering. The Hope that this side will win granting eventually more freedom than the last masters.
It was a time of revolution and those are always bloddy. There are millions of reasons why…there is only one fact left now, Croatia was a small less important nation and it was treated as such and all it could achieve was benefitting from the scraps of its more important master-nations tables…the Germanic type masters used to be a little less oppressive than the Slavic option so they went with the flow.
[/QUOTE]
I could understand you , but i/m doubt that some pf you people did not see who was Nazy? Do you doubt, please read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp
Jasenovac death-camp ( one the worts capm in Eastern Europe) was established by the Ustaša (Ustasha) regime of the Independent State of Croatia in August 1941. It was dismantled in April 1945. Unlike other concentration and extermination camps, in Jasenovac the main victims were ethnic Serbs, whom Ante Pavelić considered the main racial enemy of NDH, although other groups, like Jews and Gypsies, were also the victims there, as well as some Bosniaks and Croats.
As you can see dear Vukodlac, the Croatian Ustaša took active part ( and importaint role ) in the race henocide of other people. Is it not strange for you that they fight for independence from Ugoslavia by the such unhuman way?( OK they killed the Serbs - i can understand, but why did they kill the jews and others?;))
[/QUOTE]
At the very beginning it wasn’t obvious to everyone. After a while it was suspicious but disregarded as a method of persecuting crimminals of some sort. And then it was just a bit too much and a bit too late for civillians to deal with.
But yes some Ustasa sure did that. I am not denying that gruesome and regrettable part of our own history. And I dont understand how exactly was this ok in anyones mind. Killing anyone like this Croatian, Jew, Serb or any other…for whatever reason is just abhorrent to me.
And I am sure that there were ordinary people that knew. But knowing and doing something is the difference between life and death…what would you choose, and what of your family? Friends? They would all be delt with by the regime if any stepped out of the box. But some did act and not only the ones that Joined the Partisans.
When the German military attache (after Stalingrad) remarked to Eugen Kvaternik (the Croatian Marshall)…Kvaternik publically slapped the guys face saying that enough Croatian Blood has been spilled in foerign countries for foerign causes…and stormed away.
[/QUOTE]
So if you have the Serbs parents and and was born ( and live) in the Croatian Kraina so who are you Serb or Croatian? According your logic you must be Croat becouse you parents has a Croatian citizenship. So why do you need the blood civil war if the all things are so simple?
[/QUOTE]
(I am assuming you are talking about this last war here.)
As I wrote before, yes you would be a Croatian of Serbian descent.
And why would the “good natured” Pan-Yugoslav,already pro serb governament choose to deploy its army against its “well” treated citizens…why did the JNA army arm and equip those Serb minority civillians? Why would those Serb civillians blockade parts of Croatia with felled tree trunks and check everyones id cards on major roadways all throughout Croatia. Why would the governament hire a vast majority of Police in Croatia from the Serb minority. Why would the police fire most of its Croatian staff just before the first tree trunk hit the road?
Because they had something to loose if Croatia was finnally independent.
But this is also a subject for another topic.
[/QUOTE]
No i have no sources about atrosities of 369 croatian infantry division in Stalingrad. And i have to agree they treated the soviets POWs better then nazy.But they fought for the Nazy though, whome aim was a henocide of whole peoples population. And i/m not sure the other Croatians units were not guilt in the atrocities in the East .
I was not anger at Croatian Vukodlak. I was a little irritate of your naive romantic presentation the cruel battles in the Croatia in 1941-45 as the “stragle for independece”. There were NO holy side in that time.
I know the USSR made a lot dirty things for the Eastern Europe. But this also don’t justify the colloborations with Nazy some of this states.
IMO the each people is deserved its fate
Cheers. [/QUOTE]
Germany’s goal in Russia wasnt extermination of Russians but subjugation of its resources…both human and material, the methods they often employed was quite atrocious however.
Thank you for saying the truth about the 369. and its members I really appreciate that.
Now how did you get the idea that I regard the NDH as Holy…and whats up with this naive outlook business?!?
Cheers
P.S. If everyone got what they truly deserved there would be no humans left on the planet.
Especially if we will used the races-superiority ideas
OK, thanks for the post Vukodlak and my best wishes personaly at you.
I presume that this is not intended to read the way it does?
Incidentally, what does your signature say in English?
Hey,
actually it does…but let me elaborate. From the Judeo-Christian point of view that the “wages of sin is death”…no matter the intensity or level of this sin…therefore by the standards that are expressed within the Bible everyone truly deserves to die (this is found and elaborately explained in the Book of Romans if anyone cares). That is why Jesus is the saviour…he was the one that died as the redeemer of everyones sins…so now anyone has the potential to be accepted by God in spite of what everyone deserves.
But this has the potential of quickly evolving into a Christian theological debate, so I’ll stop here.
On the other thig it means “Whatever God and a heroes fate might bring”.
It was the moto of the original 369.
And the same to you buddy.
That is exactly what I had thought you meant. I just wanted you to clarify in case I had mis-understood. Thank you.
Do poles seriously will send a claim at the Strasburg about Katyn?
But they have to finish the russian-polish investigation firstly. If not - this step just will bring us at the crisis in our relationship.
In fact our official relation today is not good (mosly becouse polish anti-russian hysteria).
But i wish to be an optimist;)
And i hope our polish “slav’s brothers” will not bury our relationship finaly.
Firstly they could nothing proved in Strassburg (in this case the Russian side will strongly defends ) .
Moreover i doubt the Europe wish to repeat the show in “doctor Goebbels” spirit.
The times has changed - nobody wish to stay without russian gas 
Have already submitted:
http://echo.msk.ru/news/306924.html
Радиостанция “Эхо Москвы”
22 апреля 2006, 18.06
Родственники поляков, убитых во время Второй мировой войны под Катынью, намерены жаловаться в Страсбург на то, что нарушено их право на надлежащее расследование, а значит, не соблюдена Европейская конвенция по правам человека. В деле участвуют родственники 70 польских граждан из тех 22 тыс, что были убиты в плену на территории России и Украины. В марте этого года Главная военная прокуратура России отказалась признать расстрелянных жертвами политических репрессий, поскольку не нашла доказательств того что польские граждане были осуждены по политическим мотивам. Не исключено, что иск будет отвергнут Европейским судом. Как пояснил нашей радиостанции адвокат Павел Астахов, на данном этапе юристы родственников погибших должны продолжить работу с российской системой правосудия.
В начале Второй мировой примерно 2 млн польских офицеров, врачей, священников и обычных граждан были депортированы в СССР. Из них десятки тысяч просто исчезли. А в 43 году немецкие военные нашли одно из массовых захоронений в лесу под Смоленском.
Советские власти не признали преступление, заявив, что убийство свершили нацисты. Лишь в 1992 году был опубликован приказ о расстреле поляков за подписью Лаврентия Берии.
Translating:
Radio station “Echo of Moscow”
On April, 22 2006, 18.06
Relatives of the Poles killed during the Second world war under Каtyn, are going to complain to Strasbourg that their right on appropriate investigation so, the European convention under human rights is not observed is broken. Relatives of 70 Polish citizens participate in business from those 22 thousand that has been killed in a captivity in territory of Russia and Ukraine. In March of this year the Main military Office of Public Prosecutor of Russia has refused to recognize расстрелянных as victims of political reprisals as has not found proofs of that that the Polish citizens have been condemned on political grounds. It is possible, that the claim will be rejected by the European court. As has explained our radio station lawyer Paul Astakhov, at the given stage lawyers of relatives of victims should continue work with the Russian system of justice.
In the beginning of the Second world(global) about 2 million Polish officers, doctors, priests and usual citizens have been deported in the USSR. From them tens thousand have simply disappeared. And in 43 year German militarians have found one of mass burial places in a wood near Smolensk.
The Soviet authorities have not recognized a crime, having declared, that murder nazis have made. Only in 1992 the order on execution of Poles behind signature by L.Beria has been published.
I can note, what now Poles risk nothing - the USSR at Gorbachev has recognized the fault for Каtyn, Russia at Yeltsin has repeated these apologies - that else to find out and investigate?
It is necessary to demand indemnifications only.
To me Poles not brothers.
Germans cause in me where the greater respect, despite of two world wars in which we fight against them.
The enemy to respect it is possible. The Poles - it is impossible.
I thought so one time too.
But now i have the some of polish friends, and i have to say you thay are simular like us. Our “political hostility” of our gov is just prejudices that each side use in own political aims.
But among the simple people we have a lot of common features. And i was amazing the first people on this forum that i got as my frineds were a poles.
Indeed we with poles have much more possibility for the understanding then with ANY western peoples. Being as a slav we have a common far roots and inspite of different religion and history we still has a lot of simular national feelings.
I understand your point - the nowadays polish authorities behaves hostility toward the Russia.And not always they could resonable explain it. For instnace they supported the islamic terrorists in Checnija.
But i think this is the personal problem of polish “patriots” extra-right-view politics that are in the power in poland tooday.
And our own russian 'patriots" are glad to join in confrontation. Now we heared the mutual claims.
This is sadly IMO becouse our relation still far from the good.
I can name weight of the Russian historians which constantly speak about “fault” of Russia in front of Poland (it that during the Second World war of the Russia - USSR has rescued Poles from physical destruction) and all demand from the new and new repentances for Каtyn.
And you can name even three-four Polish historians who would speak about sins of Poland in front of Russia and would demand from sir Kachinskogo to make to Russia apologies for mass destruction of RKKA soldiers in the Polish concentration camps in 1920-1922?
Or can though someone from local Poles though a word will condemn Vladislav Sikorskiy for execution 300 Soviet captured in 1920?
And in fact it is the fact which nobody challenges - about it has been written to A.Velevejsky in “Gazeta Vyborcha ” from February, 23 1994г.
Well i understand. Recently i watch on ORT the program of Vladimir Pozner “Vremena” he calls us for the repentance for the Eastern Europe.
He has invited the 5 guests among which were ONLY 2 russians ( all other including Pozner are the jews).This was a hot dispute where i was finaly convinced the Pozner is the tupical rusofob and he has nothing common with us except the language.
Or can though someone from local Poles though a word will condemn Vladislav Sikorskiy for execution 300 Soviet captured in 1920?
Oh what this for execution?Poles killed the 300 of soviet POWs.
I did not hear nothing about.
It was in August, 1920, during counterattack of Poles.
Then Poles have captured from above 160000 soldier of Red Army. From these 160000 in 1920-1922 were lost in a captivity for famine, illnesses and mass executions over 80000 captured.
Rus-Loh this is lie
In Polish POW camps was die 16.000-20.000 Russian POW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919-1924)
During the Polish-Soviet War, between 80,000-85,000[2] Soviet soldiers became prisoners of war and were held in Polish POW camps. The conditions in these camps were bad, as the newly recreated Polish state lacked many basic capabilities and had few resources to construct them. Thus the existing camps, many of which were adapted from World War I German and Russian facilities or constructed by the prisoners themselves, were not adequate for holding the large number of prisoners, who suffered from hunger, bad sanitation and inadequate hygiene. Between 16,000 (Polish figures)[2] and 20,000 (Russian figures)[2] died, mostly as a result of catastrophic conditions and epidemics which raged in the camps, especially the post-WWI Spanish Flu Pandemic. Before publications of new findings in Russia in 2004, some Russian sources were known to give a much inflated numbers for prisoners and the death toll (up to 165,000 and 70,000), respecively. This matter caused much controversy between Poland and Russia.[1]
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The controversy
Until the source documents were published in Moscow in 2004,[2] some Russian historians have estimated the number of prisoners and the death toll to be much higher, estimating that the death toll was between 40,000 to 100,000.[1] For example, Irina Mikhutina in her 1995 publications estimated the number of prisoners to be 165,000 and the death toll to be 70,000.[6] In 1998 Russian popular press reported that Polish internment camp in Tuchola was particularly notorious for the large number of Soviet POW’s deaths and was dubbed a “death camp” by the Russian Emigrant press from within Poland.[7] There have also been accusations from the Russian side that the death toll was influenced by the indifference of the camp authorities.[citation needed] Some Russian historians used those numbers to justify the Katyn massacre[1].[8]
The Russian historians arrived at this number by first estimating the number of POWs, then subtracting the number that has been repatriated to the Soviet Union after the hostilities ended, and then assuming that most of the remainder died in POW camps[citation needed]. Polish historians always countered this by arguing that: (a) the number of POWs was very difficult to estimate accurately, due to the chaotic situation prevailing for most of the war, and (b) many Soviet POWs lost that status after they switched sides and entered units fighting alongside Polish forces against the Red Army[citation needed]. The Russians, however, point at the estimations, that the number of those switched sides could not exceed 15,000.[citation needed] There was also the problem that significant number of Russian POWs were left in the territory of Poland since WWI (about 3.9 million soldiers of the Russian Empire were taken captive by the Central Powers) and obviously when the Polish-Soviet conflict deteriorated, these POWs were not released to Russia.[citation needed]
The issue was finally settled in 2004, where a joint team of Polish and Russian historians (prof. Waldemar Rezmer and prof. Zbigniew Karpus from Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń and prof. Gennady Matveyev from Moscow State University), after reexamining documents from Polish and Russian archives published their results (printed in Russia by Federal Agency for Russian Archives). Their findings show that the number of Russian POWs can be estimated from 80,000 to 85,000 and that the number of deaths in the camps can be estimated from 16,000 (Karpus, Rezmer) to 20,000 (Matvejev). They also show that the cause of death were various ilnesses and epidemics (Spanish flu, typhus, cholera and shigellosis), which were at that time rampant throughout the whole of Europe and caused hundreds of thousands of death not only among POWs, but also among fighting soldiers and civilian population.[1].
A similar number of Polish POWs - about 20,000 out of about 51,000 - died in Soviet and Lithuanian camps.[9]
Oh my god Polar. Form the 80 000 peisoned were dead 16-20 000.
Do you know this mean the deathrate about 20-25 %.
From what period ?
How many years the soviet pows were hold in the Polais concentrated camps after the peace soviet-polish treaty was signed?