War Crimes

The first
this wasn’t “concentrated camps” but POW camps
The priod was for Russian POW 1919-1922 after Treat of Ryga was relased.
I think that in this book you can find more info
Waldemar Rezmer, Zbigniew Karpus, Gennadij Matvejev, “Krasnoarmieitsy v polskom plenu v 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentov i materialov”, Federal Agency for Russian Archives, Moscow 2004

BTW why Chevan did you don’t calculate this number

A similar number of Polish POWs - about 20,000 out of about 51,000 - died in Soviet and Lithuanian camps.[9]

And how could you explain the hig death rate of prisoners in “POW camps” if it could be compared with deat rate of slav in the Nazy "POWs camps ".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner-of-war_camp#Polish.E2.80.93Soviet_War
From autumn 1920, thousands of captured Red Army men had been placed in the camp of Тuchola, in Pomerania. These POWs lived in trenches. Famine, cold and infectious diseases killed tens of prisoners daily. In the winter 1920/1921 PoWs had a death rate of about 25% which was attributed to malnutrition, poor sanitary conditions, lack of fuel and medicines and physical maltreatment by the polish supervisors.

Where did you see the “POWs camp” with the 25% death rate ( may be in Nazy Germany) :wink:
This “camp” has even wors condition then the GULAG.

The priod was for Russian POW 1919-1922 after Treat of Ryga was relased.
I think that in this book you can find more info
Waldemar Rezmer, Zbigniew Karpus, Gennadij Matvejev, “Krasnoarmieitsy v polskom plenu v 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentov i materialov”, Federal Agency for Russian Archives, Moscow 2004

As far as i know the Treat od Riga was signed in 18 march of 1921.
How could you explain then the whole year after that the soviet POWs continie to die from iIlness and famine.

BTW why Chevan did you don’t calculate this number

And where did you get those figures, from Wiki?
Karpus, Zbigniew, Alexandrowicz Stanisław, Zwycięzcy za drutami. Jeńcy polscy w niewoli (1919-1922). Dokumenty i materiały (Victors behind the fences. Polish POWs (1919-1922). Documents and materials). Wydawnictwo Uniwersytetu Mikołaja Kopernika w Toruniu, Toruń, 1995, ISBN 83-231-0627-4
Polish professor from Torun wrote a book where he “perosnally” calculated this figures.
Call to us please the realible source about polish POWs in USSR in the 1921 that used the common soviet-polish datas.

Don’t you think is strange that if we tells about soviet POWs we used the russian -polish sources but if you tell sabout polish POWs in USSR you used purelly inner opolish sources?
Why do yo think we need to believe the polish figures ( that was unsupported of the russians archives).
I don’t think it could be more realible that the russian figures about 160 000 of soviet POWs , half of them perished from famine and ilness?

or soviet “POW camps” for Polish POW :wink:
Did you see this in text : ".

“They also show that the cause of death were various ilnesses and epidemics[b] (Spanish flu, typhus, cholera and shigellosis), which were at that time rampant throughout the whole of Europe and caused hundreds of thousands of death not only among POWs, but also among fighting soldiers and civilian population.[b][1].”".

Did you was in GULAG ?

Did you see in text what I quote that they die in 1922?
The most off them die in 1920/21.
In march 1921 the exchanged POW was started and was end in first month 1922 (in december 1921 in Poland was only 985 POW who guaranted that Soviet give all polish officers)

Yes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Polish_prisoners_and_internees_in_Soviet_Union_and_Lithuania_(1919-1921)

Yes for me this situation is strange too, but I don’t know any russian -polish source.
Did you know some russian -polish source about polish POWs in USSR during War 1919-1921?

The death rate of inamtes in GULAG was, depending of the period, about 3 times higher than of free soviet citizens. That is somewhere around 3-4% per year. The numbers are just from the top of my weak memory.
GULAG was a work machine, not people extermination machine.

I’ve seen the text Polar.
May be you don’t believe to me but Nazy justified the hight death rate of soviet POWs by a simylar reasons - ilnesses and epidemics too. They simply rejected to them the medical service ans medicaments.
If as you said the polish population suffer from the similar diseases at that time - does it mean the death rate among the polish soldiers and peoples were the same?

Did you was in GULAG ?

And do you was in the “POWs camp” in Tuchola?
Why do you ask this stoopid question.
I know from the statistic figures in GULAG never dead 1/4 of prisoners ONLY for two years. Or may be you wish to say in the GULAG the peoples never died from illness;)
We could compare it with Nazy “POWs” camps - if in Poland perished 25% ONLY for two years this mean that if the soviet prisoners were in here 4 years at least half of them should die. This almost equalent of death rate in the Germans camps (60%)

Did you see in text what I quote that they die in 1922?
The most off them die in 1920/21.
In march 1921 the exchanged POW was started and was end in first month 1922 (in december 1921 in Poland was only 985 POW who guaranted that Soviet give all polish officers)

and how many polish oficers were in the hends of Red Army in the december of 1922?

Yes for me this situation is strange too, but I don’t know any russian -polish source.
Did you know some russian -polish source about polish POWs in USSR during War 1919-1921?

Well i don’t know yet. But i will search.
I show you when i will find something.

22 thousand soldier of Red Army, victims in Polish to a captivity about which you speak are NOT ALL VICTIMS in a captivity, these are captured, died in ONE only camp for captured in Tuhol.

http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=152&page=1

Translation (not mine - automatic):

I.Matushevsky’s statement for destruction of 22 thousand captured is widely known since 1965 and already a line of years is object of furious criticism on the part of semi-official Polish historians. Affirms, that in Тuhol I.Matushevsky has gathered data on huge death rate from press and in spite of the fact that these data were nonvalidated, with not clear purpose has included overestimated more than ten times (!) data in the text as it is declared, one of the insignificant letters. After this, the Polish historians and Russian authors supporting their point of view, such, for example, as Alexey Pamjatnyh, unreasonably judge that the data from letter Matushevsky are false and in Тuhol were lost not 22.000 captured, and only 1.950 person. Yes, really, on October, 19, 1921, that is almost for three and a half of a month up to I.Matushevsky’s letter, in the Warsaw newspaper “Freedom” the information that in camp Tuholi for a year has died about 22 thousand captured has appeared. Probably, such publications was much more, as marks I.Matushevsky.
What is possible to tell in the given occasion? First of all, that I.Matushevsky’s letter is not the personal message of the private person, and the official answer to the order of military minister of Poland #65/22 from January, 12, 1922 with the categorical instruction to the chief of the Polish military investigation: «… To present an explanation, under what conditions there was a runaway of 33 communists from camp captured Стшалково and who bears for it the responsibility » (« Red Army soldiers in Polish to a captivity … », with. 700). Similar orders usually give special services when it is required to establish a true picture of event with absolute reliability.
Minister has not casually charged with I.Matushevsky to investigate circumstances of runaway of communists from Стшалково. The chief of II department of the Joint Staff of the Army of the Polish I.Matushevsky in 1920-23 г.г. Was the most informed person in Poland concerning a real state of affairs in camps captered and interned. As the chief of military investigation, he was that Polish government official who on a post has been obliged to possess a full file of the information on all camps including closed - about extrajudicial executions военнопленных, about punishments above военнопленными under the initiative of employees of camp administration and about cases of mass destruction captured. Gathering, processing and the analysis of the similar information were included directly into duties of his subordinates.
Let’s remind, that private owners of the Polish camps for военнопленных and interned, according to the instruction of the Ministry of militarians has put Poland from September, 3, 1920, officers of II department, i.e. I.Matushevskogo’s subordinates were. They supervised over reception военнопленных in camp, provided their political “sorting”, gave “kindness” on evacuation and clearing, and also supervised accommodation военнопленных in camps and change of their number. The real state of affairs in camp in Тухоли has been simply obliged to know I.Matushevsky by virtue of the service position.
Therefore there can not be no doubts that else long before a spelling of the letter from February, 1, 1922. I.Matushevsky had the exhaustive, documentary confirmed and repeatedly rechecked information on death of 22 thousand captured in camp Tuhol. Otherwise, it is necessary to be the political suicide that on own initiative to inform the country leaders the unchecked facts of such level, especially, on a problem which is taking place in the center of loud diplomatic scandal! In fact only for four and a half of a month up to letter Матушевского, on September, 9, 1921, narkom of foreign affairs Tchitcherin has put RSFSR has directed to Poland the well-known note in which in the most rigid expressions has accused the Polish authorities of destruction 60.000 Soviet soldiers).

The decision officially to advise the supreme Polish management of destruction in Тuhol camp of 22 thousand captured has ripened at I.Matushevsky. I.Matushevsky for the reason that it has ceased to be a secret for the Polish and foreign public. Under such circumstances, the further concealment of the true information from the heads threatened with troubles already personally for I.Matushevsky and all his department.

From a history many cases when the most confidential information on the various facts shocking the public became property of journalists are known, and the governmental circles of the various countries subsequently have been compelled to confirm correctness of press. Recently all of us witness public scandal with secret prisons of CIA. Similar information leakage has taken place and in our case.

In the letter in a cabinet of minister of militarians has put I.Matushevsky gives the exhaustive answer to inquiry of minister concerning runaway of communists from Стшалково and, already under own initiative, further adds: « From the information available in II department gathered from correspondence interned and from press follows, that runaways from camp are not limited only Стшалково, but happen in all other camps both for communists, and for interned “white”. These runaways are caused by conditions in which there are communists and interned (absence of fuel, linen and clothes, a bad feed(meal), and also long expectation of departure to Russia). The camp in Tuhol, named interned by “camp of death” (in this camp has died about 22.000 thousand captured Red Army) “(” Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity … » is especially known, with. 701).

I.Matushevsky refers to press, speaking about popularity of runaways from camps and conditions of the maintenance(contents) in them captured. Also he emphasizes special popularity in press of camp in Тuhol, and, that it name «camp of death ». Popularity Тухольского of camp in press is easily explainable if to recollect applications(statements) Стефании Семполовской, which else in June, 1921 spoke about incredibly high death rate in Тухоли. Theme Тухоли constantly was present at statements of representatives of ORES in Warsaw. No wonder, that this camp especially interested journalists.

In that figures of death rate captured, the named I.Matushevskim and press coincide, there is nothing surprising. The information on death rate captured while she(it) got on table Матушевскому, passed through several executors. Someone from them, despite of a signature stamp “confidentially”, for any reason has shared this information with journalists.

I.Matushevsky well imagined, what effect of the blown up bomb will make in a cabinet of minister and at the Polish political management his official confirmation of destruction of 22 thousand captured only in one camp. No, that at the moment of a spelling of the letter he perfectly realized that on the given question further from him will demand further explanations. Probably, in the military ministry of Poland earlier already there was a question how there was an outflow of the classified information in press.

Still the question - execution 300 Russian captured under the order of general Sikorsky is too lie?
The Polish newspaper about it on February, 23, 1994 did not write?

For your data

http://www.russia-today.ru/2002/no_6/6_federal_power_5.htm

В ноте НКИД РСФСР в миссию Польши в Москве от 9.09.1921 г. сообщалось, что в результате войны 1919—1920 годов в польском плену оказалось 130 тыс. красноармейцев, из которых в лагерях умерло 60 тыс.

In note NKID RSFSR in mission of Poland in Moscow from 9.09.1921 it was informed, that as a result of war of 1919-1920 in Polish to a captivity appeared 130 thousand Red Army soldiers from which in camps has died 60 thousand.

http://www.specnaz.ru/istoriya/50/

К началу сражения на Висле у поляков имелось 107,9 тыс. штыков и сабель, 1834 пулемета, 108 тяжелых и 526 легких орудий, свыше 70 танков. В ходе боев под Варшавой Антанта спешно направила для польской армии около 600 орудий, которые по прибытии были немедленно введены в бой. Западный фронт насчитывал около 101,3 тыс. штыков и сабель, лишь незначительно уступая противнику в живой силе. Однако на направлении контрудара поляки обеспечили себе подавляющее преимущество: 38 тыс. штыков и сабель против 6,1 тыс. штыков.
16 августа началось польское контрнаступление. Его итогом стал полный разгром Западного фронта, потерявшего 66 тыс. пленными и 25 тыс. убитыми и ранеными. Еще 43 тыс. красноармейцев оказались вынужденными отступить в Восточную Пруссию, где были интернированы немецкими властями. Поляки захватили 1023 пулемета и 231 орудие.
…По данным исследователя М.В.Филимошина, всего в 1919-1920 гг. в польском плену оказалось 165550 красноармейцев. Из них 83500 погибли от голода и зверских пыток в польских концлагерях (М.В.Филимошин. «Десятками стрелял людей только за то, что выглядели как большевики» // Военно-исторический журнал. 2001, №2. С.45-46).

To the beginning of battle on Vistula Poles had 107,9 thousand bayonets and sabres, 1834 machine guns, 108 heavy and 526 easy instruments, over 70 tanks. During fights near Warsaw АNTANTA has hastily directed for the Polish army about 600 instruments which have been after the arrival immediately entered into fight. The western front totaled about 101,3 thousand bayonets and sabres, only insignificantly conceding to the opponent in alive force. However on a direction of counterstroke Poles have provided to themselves overwhelming advantage: 38 thousand bayonets and sabres against 6,1 thousand bayonets.
On August, 16 began the Polish counterattack. Its result became full route of the Western front which has lost 66 thousand captured both 25 thousand killed and wounded men. In 43 thousand more Red Army soldiers appeared compelled to recede to East Prussia where have been interned by German authorities. Poles have grasped 1023 machine guns and 231 instrument.
…According to researcher M.V.Filimoshin, all in 1919-1920 in Polish to a captivity appeared 165550 Red Army soldiers. From them 83500 were lost for famine and brutal tortures in the Polish concentration camps (M.V.Filimoshin. « In tens shot people only that looked as bolsheviks » // Military - historical magazine. 2001, №2. with 45-46).

http://www.ng.ru/ideas/2000-11-03/8_poland-ru.html

Российский исследователь И.Михутина, на которую ссылаются М.Филимошин и А.Селенский, считает, что общее число пленных красноармейцев за 1919-1920 годы составило 165,5 тыс. человек, а погибли и умерли в польском плену в 1919-1922 годах около 83,5 тыс. человек. В статистическом труде “Гриф секретности снят: потери Вооруженных Сил СССР в войнах, боевых действиях и военных конфликтах”, изданном в 1993 году, приводятся данные о 94 880 командирах и красноармейцах Западного и Юго-Западного фронтов, пропавших без вести и попавших в плен в 1920 году (в книге они сведены в одну графу).

Russian researcher I.Mihutina to which refer M.Filimoshin and A.Selensky, considers, that the common number captured Red Army soldiers for 1919-1920 has made 165,5 thousand person, and were lost and have died in Polish to a captivity in 1919-1922 about 83,5 thousand person. In statistical work " the Security classification is removed(taken off): losses of Armed forces of the USSR in wars, operations and military conflicts ", issued in 1993, cited the data on 94880 commanders and Red Army soldiers the Western and Southwest fronts which disappeared without a message and have been taken prisoner in 1920 (in the book they are shown in one column).

Dear Rus-Loh, could give us the number of victims of soviet atrocities and genoicide commited on Poles during 1920?
I belive you want to be fully objective when talking about tortures, rapes, mass-shooting, impaling, nails’ extractions, decapitations of polish POWs and civilians during polish-soviet war in 1920.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Советско-польская_война_1919—1921_годов

Chronology:

November 1919 - a reconstruction of the Polish state
December 1918 - July 1919 - Poles borrow Galicia and suppress the Western - Ukrainian republic
On January, 16 1919 - the first fight of the Polish army with Red Army in 25 km. to the west of the city of Lida
March - April 1919 - Poles have borrowed the cities of Lida and Baranovichi
July 1919 to Poland there has arrived the 70-thousand Polish army created in France and generated substantially from Americans of the Polish origin.
July - August 1919 - Poles have occupied Minsk, Bobruisk and Borisov
March 1920 - Poles grasp Mozyr
Spring 1920 deliver Poland 1494 instruments, 2800 machine guns, about 700 planes, 10 million shells.
On April, 25 1920 - having concluded the union with Petlyura the Polish army together with Petlura’s armed groups has attacked Russia.
On May, 7 1920 - the Polish armies occupy Kiev. Approach of the Polish armies is accompanied by the Jewish pogroms and mass executions. In Rovno invaders have shot more than 3 thousand peace inhabitants, in place Теtievо is killed about 4 thousand Jews, villages Ivanovtsy, the Heap, Sobachi, Yablonuvka, New Rowing, Mеlnichi, Kirillovka and др, their inhabitants are shot completely burnt.
On May, 7 June, 1920 - the Polish occupation of Kiev
On June, 5 1920 - the beginning of the Soviet counterattack in Ukraine
On June, 6 - the Soviet armies have beaten off Zhitomir and Berdichev.
On June, 11 1920 - the Soviet armies have borrowed Minsk.
On July, 10 1920 - Антанта suggests RSFSR to stop Red Army on “line of Kerzon”
On July, 20 1920 - the Soviet armies have borrowed Vilno.
30.07.1920 In Bialystok the Temporary revolutionary committee of Poland has been formed
On August, 2 1920 - the Soviet armies have borrowed Brest - Litovsk. The red Army has left to " line of Кеrzon "
On August, 16 1920 - the beginning of the Polish counterattack near Warsaw
17.08.1920 In Minsk negotiations between Poland and the Soviet Russia have begun.
On August, 25 - parts of Red Army are interned in East Prussia.
First half of October - the Polish army has left to a line Minsk - Dubno
On October, 12 1920 - the conclusion of an armistice.

Conclusion - in 1920 the Red Army was in territory actually Poland TWO WEEKS. Time for atrocities at Red Army it was not simple.

But the polish army had enough time to kill the civilians at the occuped ukrainian territories.

наступление польских войск сопровождается еврейскими погромами и массовыми расстрелами: в г. Ровно оккупанты расстреляли более 3 тысяч мирных жителей, в местечко Тетиево убито около 4 тысяч евреев, полностью сожжены деревни Ивановцы, Куча, Собачи, Яблуновка, Новая Гребля, Мельничи, Кирилловка и др, их жители расстреляны


the offensive of Polish troops is accompanied by Jewish pogroms and mass murders: in Rovno the occupiers had shoted more than 3 thousand innocent civilians, into the place Tetiyevo they killed about 4 000 Jews, are completely burnt village Ivanovo, Kucha, Sobachi, Yablunovka, new Greblij, Mel’nichi, Kirillovka, etc., their inhabitants were shoted.

So as we could see the first mass killing of jews in 20 centure were made not by the Nazy but polish army in the 1920 in rural Ukraine :wink:
How we could explaine the such behaviour of Polish army in the occuped territories ?
may be the Red Army made a atrocities above the polish civil population ?
But in this way why did poles kill the jews in Ukraine?
I don’t see an resonable explanation of this.

Yes Rus-Loh all this articles are lies and soviet propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919-1924)
The issue was finally settled in 2004, where a joint team of Polish and Russian historians (prof. Waldemar Rezmer and prof. Zbigniew Karpus from Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń and prof. Gennady Matveyev from Moscow State University), after reexamining documents from Polish and Russian archives published their results (printed in Russia by Federal Agency for Russian Archives).

Conclusion was that in polish camps was die 16.000-20.000 pows

BTW in few this articles the numbers russian pows “mourders” by terrible Poles are biger than this pows was.

Sorry Chevan but most of jews pogroms was doing by ukrainian army Symon Petlura. Look this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symon_Petlura

Typically “democratic” approach : all, that is not pleasant - is enemy’s propaganda
Boringly…

In ONE CAMP, not “camps”

I repeat:

Or can though someone from local Poles though a word will condemn Vladislav Sikorskiy for execution 300 Soviet captured in 1920?
And in fact it is the fact which nobody challenges - about it has been written to A.Velevejsky in “Gazeta Vyborcha ” from February, 23 1994г.

Or it is “lies and soviet propaganda” too? :slight_smile:

No Polar those articles are far from the soviet propoganda becouse the stupod soviet propoganda constantly inspared the soviet myth about “brotherhood of slav’s peoples”.
They keep the silenca about polish rusofobia.
Tha articles that you’ve read just express the points of contemporary RUSSIAN RIGH-VIEW politics toward the perstpectives of our russian-polish normal relationship.
They pragmatically says- if the Poland is uncorrectable Russian enemy - does this mean we must keep the silence about its atrocities toward the other stlav’s peoples:Ukrainians , belorussians and russians. Why do we need the tells about Katyn if the poles killed a thousands of our own peoples early.

Conclusion was that in polish camps was die 16.000-20.000 pows

Sorry but if we still hear about 320 000 … 700 000 … 1 .7 million of deported poles by the NKVD in the 1939-40 and i have to notice you the your own polish cources could not exactly calculate this figure.
Does it mean we mush accept only lowest figure of ( that express the interests of polish position ) 16 - 20 000 as a “final true” and must ignored other russian historians who proved the russian pows were no less then 160 000 ?

Most or the ALL - that is the right question :smiley:
Well may be polish friend ( at that moment ) Semon Petlura ordered a MOST of jewish pogroms in Ukraine, but its obvious he was not able to organised the pogroms in the Poland, right?:wink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom#Outside_of_Russia

Pogroms spread throughout Central and Eastern Europe, and anti-Jewish riots broke out elsewhere in the world. In 1918 and throughout the Polish-Bolshevik War there were sporadic pogroms in Poland.

So as you could see Wiki could not keep the silence about anti-semitism in Poland at that times.
Have you any evidences that proves the Poilish side had no RELATION at the executions of civilians when the polish troops together with Petlura?
Do you wish to throw the responsibility ONLY on Ukrains nationalists.

Typically “soviet” approach : all, that is not pleasant - is “democratic” propaganda

20.000 in all camps

Chevan I never questioned that antisemitizm was, is or will be on Poland
But look carfuly the text -were sporadic Did know meaning this word?

Thanks for all of your ideas so far, guys! :slight_smile: