Therefore there can not be no doubts that else long before a spelling of the letter from February, 1, 1922. I.Matushevsky had the exhaustive, documentary confirmed and repeatedly rechecked information on death of 22 thousand captured in camp Tuhol. Otherwise, it is necessary to be the political suicide that on own initiative to inform the country leaders the unchecked facts of such level, especially, on a problem which is taking place in the center of loud diplomatic scandal! In fact only for four and a half of a month up to letter I.Matushevsky, on September, 9, 1921, narkom of foreign affairs Tchitcherin has put RSFSR has directed to Poland the well-known note in which in the most rigid expressions has accused the Polish authorities of destruction 60.000 Soviet soldiers).
The decision officially to advise the supreme Polish management of destruction in Тuhol camp of 22 thousand captured has ripened at I.Matushevsky. I.Matushevsky for the reason that it has ceased to be a secret for the Polish and foreign public. Under such circumstances, the further concealment of the true information from the heads threatened with troubles already personally for I.Matushevsky and all his department.
I.Matushevsky well imagined, what effect of the blown up bomb will make in a cabinet of minister and at the Polish political management his official confirmation of destruction of 22 thousand captured only in one camp. No, that at the moment of a spelling of the letter he perfectly realized that on the given question further from him will demand further explanations. Probably, in the military ministry of Poland earlier already there was a question how there was an outflow of the classified information in press.
But look carfuly the text -were sporadic Did know meaning this word?
Well you will laugh but …when Nazy captured the any city in Ukraine ( or elsewhere) the native nationalists ( not the germans) begin to beat , grab the jewish property and even killed them - Nazy called it as “sropadic” pogroms - they simply did NOTHING to stop the nationalists( like and Polish authorities in 1920-yy). Later they has began the organized therror.
Therefore there can not be no doubts that else long before a spelling of the letter from February, 1, 1922. I.Matushevsky had the exhaustive, documentary confirmed and repeatedly rechecked information[b] on death of 22 thousand captured in camp Tuhol./b[Quote]
Did he wrote in wich period? This camp was organized by Germans in 1914 for russian pows. Pows die in this camp 4 yers before Poland newborn after 123 years not exist. But off course Poland is resposability for all victims whats die on theier terrietory :rolleyes:
[Quote]
Or can though someone from local Poles though a word will condemn Vladislav Sikorskiy for execution 300 Soviet captured in 1920?
And in fact it is the fact which nobody challenges - about it has been written to A.Velevejsky in “Gazeta Vyborcha ” from February, 23 1994г.
Or it is “lies and soviet propaganda” too?
Yes Wladyslaw Sikorski give order number 1205 or 1207 wich was about execution 300 Soviet Pows from III Cavalery Corps. The reson this order was revenge for massacre in hospital (80 person from personel and wounded) in Plock doing by members this unit.
And example how “great russian” historician calculate
To the beginning of battle on Vistula Poles had 107,9 thousand bayonets and sabres, 1834 machine guns, 108 heavy and 526 easy instruments, over 70 tanks. During fights near Warsaw АNTANTA has hastily directed for the Polish army about 600 instruments which have been after the arrival immediately entered into fight. [b]The western front totaled about 101,3[b] thousand bayonets and sabres, only insignificantly conceding to the opponent in alive force. However on a direction of counterstroke Poles have provided to themselves overwhelming advantage: 38 thousand bayonets and sabres against 6,1 thousand bayonets.
On August, 16 began the Polish counterattack. Its result became full route of the [b]Western front which has lost 66 thousand captured both 25 thousand killed and wounded men. In 43 thousand more Red Army soldiers appeared compelled to recede to East Prussia where have been interned by German authorities.[b] Poles have grasped 1023 machine guns and 231 instrument.
…According to researcher M.V.Filimoshin, all in 1919-1920 in Polish to a captivity appeared 165550 Red Army soldiers. From them 83500 were lost for famine and brutal tortures in the Polish concentration camps (M.V.Filimoshin. « In tens shot people only that looked as bolsheviks » // Military - historical magazine. 2001, №2. with 45-46).
The western front totaled about 101,3
66 thousand captured
25 thousand killed and wounded men
43 thousand more Red Army soldiers appeared compelled to recede to East Prussia =
134 thousand ( how many they eskaped ?)
Did they calculate this same method russian Pows in Poland?
Rus-Loh, Are you always rude when somebody doesn’t agree with your point of view?
About your reading ability:
I asked you:
And your answer:
Well my dear russian friend, I see we have a problem here.
I believe there can be 2 reasons:
You have serious lacks in education (especially historical and politics)
you intentionally avoid obvious historical facts, because they don’t fit to your version of history.
Why?
The answer is simple.
Poles didn’t live only on the Western side of Curzon Line.
Red army met them when it was marching across Belarus and Ukraine.
And they gave’em a real hell.
Polish army fought the Soviets also far away from the Curzon Line in Eastern direction.
Conclusion: in 1920 the Red Army was in polish territory or inhabited by polish much longer than TWO WEEKS. Red Army had a plenty of time for atrocities.
By the way, I suggest to move this discussion to the “Other wars” section.
No Polar the Wiki is the opposite the jewish sorces.
And you should confirmed it when read the its articles more attenatively.
Practically in each article they do not forget about anti-semitism. I think we could to learn a lot of useful for us to stadu the jewish experience…
They supports its national origin very carefully. And everywhere when they could to get access they organizely protects its ethnic interests. Even in Wiki.
But back to the topic;)
The so called sporadic pogroms was in the Eastern Europe at that time 91920-1922) but later it comes at the Western Europe. (Garmany).
Nazy after coming to power immediatelly had begin to inspire the “sporagic” pogroms.
They simply used the anti-semitic feeling of population ( this was a common at that time fro the all Europe - as the grafting agains jewish-bolshevism from the East).
So honestly speaking the poland was not the one where this fact had the place , but definely Poland and Ukraine were the first states where the pogroms had begin from.( after the 1917).
That’s right the Western From (commaner Tushachevskij) was fully destroyed in the this battle.
43 thousand more Red Army soldiers appeared compelled to recede to East Prussia =
134 thousand ( how many they eskaped ?)
You problem that you mixing in here the common casulates of both Western and South-Western ( commander Semen Bydeonny) front.
The strength of South-Western from was the simular about (100 -120 000 ).
The sout-wests from at this time fought near the Lviv and aslo losed this battle. But due to the retreat Budennoy could save the most of its army.
So i/m really don’t see the contorersials in here and probably even the figure of 166 000 cuptured the soviets is not full.
Did they calculate this same method russian Pows in Poland?
May be they simply used the simular polish-calculation method of “deported Poles” in the 1939-40
What is the point in executing someone if they are going to die anyway? If everyone eventually dies than executing them will make no difference in the long run.
“Rzeczpospolita”: nie wszyscy Polacy znaja prawde o zbrodni katynskiej
PAP
2007-04-23, ostatnia aktualizacja 2007-04-23 01:30
Na zlecenie “Rzeczpospolitej” i programu TVP “Warto rozmawiac”, TNS OBOP zapytal Polakow, czy slyszeli o zbrodni katynskiej. Z sondazu wynika, ze 40 proc. ankietowanych nie wie, kto wymordowal w Rosji tysiace polskich oficerow. Co dziesiaty Polak jest przekonany, ze tej zbrodni dokonali Niemcy.
Dziennik przypomina, ze 67 lat temu, w kwietniu 1940 roku, NKWD na rozkaz Stalina zamordowalo tysiace polskich jencow, glownie oficerow oraz przedstawicieli inteligencji.
Sondaz pokazuje, ze 94 proc. pytanych zna nazwe Katyn, 40 proc. respondentow o wymordowaniu polskich jencow na terenie bylego Zwiazku Radzieckiego dowiedzialo sie w czasach PRL. Wowczas byla to wiedza tajna, bo owczesne wladze ukrywaly ja przed spoleczenstwem. 55 proc. ankietowanych dowiedzialo sie prawdy dopiero w wolnej Polsce - pisze “Rz”.
Na pytanie, co tak naprawde wydarzylo sie w Katyniu, 39 proc. Polakow potrafi odpowiedziec dosyc szczegolowo: ze byl to mord popelniony na oficerach i przedstawicielach inteligencji na rozkaz Stalina. Prawie trzy czwarte z nas uwaza, iz klamstwo katynskie mialo wplyw na pozniejsze lamanie zasad moralnych w calym zyciu publicznym.
Strona rosyjska oficjalnie przyznala sie do zbrodni katynskiej dopiero w 1990 roku. Wczesniej Rosjanie probowali ukryc prawde o Katyniu, falszujac dowody i obarczajac ta zbrodnia Niemcow. Moskwa do dzisiaj jednak nie uznala mordu za zbrodnie ludobojstwa, ktora nie ulega przedawnieniu i moze byc sadzona w kazdym momencie, gdy zostanie wykryta - czytamy w “Rzeczpospolitej”.
if you agree with this text (what means that you accept the historical fact that the polish officers were murdered by Russians), I’m sure we can finish the discussion about Katyn Massacre and break the hostilities between us.
Translation:
“[…] Co dziesiaty Polak jest przekonany, ze tej zbrodni dokonali Niemcy […]”
“Every tenth Pole is convinced, that the crime was commited by the Germans.”
That’s the effect of communist propaganda in our country in 1945-89. Some people still think that commies were not so bad. But Thanks God, since 18 years we can say “The Russians murdered polish officers in Katyn” without fear, that we get arrested, or beaten by the police.
THe last few sentences:
"[…] Strona rosyjska oficjalnie przyznala sie do zbrodni katynskiej dopiero w 1990 roku. Wczesniej Rosjanie probowali ukryc prawde o Katyniu, falszujac dowody i obarczajac ta zbrodnia Niemcow. Moskwa do dzisiaj jednak nie uznala mordu za zbrodnie ludobojstwa, ktora nie ulega przedawnieniu i moze byc sadzona w kazdym momencie, gdy zostanie wykryta - czytamy w “Rzeczpospolitej […]”
“Russian side oficially admitted its guilt of Katyn Massacre in 1990. Before that Russians had tried to conceal the truth about Katyn by falsifying the evidences and burdening the Germans with their guilt. However Moscow still didn’t admit that massacre was the genocide, which cannot come under the statute of limitations and can be judged at every moment when it becomes discovered.”
And here’s the essence of the problem.
If Russians admitted the fact of genocide in Katyn, they would be forced by every single state of Eastern Europe (where they committed the crimes) to admit other crimes and in final effect to admit that Soviet Union was as much criminal as Nazi Germany.
Thank for the translation Kavalski.
what’s amazing life?
Now we suddenly have knew the poles themself are not sure about Katyn?
So could you give us the guaranty that the your version of events in Katyn is not the contemporary nationalists polish propoganda?
Looking like the poles changes their oppinion only for 18 years to the opposite i /m not sure thet through the next 18 years they will not changes this back.
“Russian side oficially admitted its guilt of Katyn Massacre in 1990. Before that Russians had tried to conceal the truth about Katyn by falsifying the evidences and burdening the Germans with their guilt. However Moscow still didn’t admit that massacre was the genocide, which cannot come under the statute of limitations and can be judged at every moment when it becomes discovered.”
And here’s the essence of the problem.
If Russians admitted the fact of genocide in Katyn, they would be forced by every single state of Eastern Europe (where they committed the crimes) to admit other crimes and in final effect to admit that Soviet Union was as much criminal as Nazi Germany.
Hmmm this sounds like a threat mate.
It so scarry - Holy Poland judge the Russia for the soviet war crimes:D
I think this is for the money ( i.e compensations)?
Well, it’s good to see you didn’t choke yourself mortally…
“Radio Free Europe” was one of attmepts in order to decrease the scale of communist propoaganda among the Poles living behind the Iron Curtain.
But its influence was not so good as Poles wanted it to be. The commies tried to drown it out. In fact a minority had an opportunity to listen to that radio station.
The result of communist propaganda is that some people don’t know who killed the officers in Katyn.
It seems that you don’t have any knowledge about Poland in 1945-89, any knowledge about communist propaganda in Poland, any knowledge about the political situation in Poland, any BASIC knowledgde about history of Poland.
Why don’t you ask about the selected group of people who were chosen for the research?
Who are they, what education do they have?
I assume the answers for these question would be too difficult for you.
Another thing is, is this public opinion poll realiable.
Why? Look at this:
“[…]Sondaż pokazuje, że 94 proc. pytanych zna nazwę Katyń, 40 proc. respondentów o wymordowaniu polskich jeńców na terenie byłego Związku Radzieckiego dowiedziało się w czasach PRL. Wówczas była to wiedza tajna, bo ówczesne władze ukrywały ją przed społeczeństwem. 55 proc. ankietowanych dowiedziało się prawdy dopiero w wolnej Polsce.[…]”
"The public opinion poll shows, that 94% of questioned knows the village name of Katyn, 40% was informed about the murder of Polish POWs in the territory of former USSR, during exitence of 1945-89 regime. Therefore it was a concealed knowledge, because the authorities hidenned it.55% found out about the truth in independent Poland "
So, basic mathematics: 40% + 55% = 95% of Poles who found out about the Soviets’ guilt.
How does 95% make to 40%?
Is this poll really realiable?
We don’t have a “PRESENT POLISH PROPAGATION”. We know the history, we know the soviet lies. We don’t have to belive, because we know the facts.
DEAL WITH IT.
And by the way, can I assume that 100% of Russians are SURE that Katyn Massacre was commited by the Germans?
Can I also assume that 100% of Russian have at least a M.A. in history and they are experts in that matter?
I’m sorry Rus-Loh, but I won’t continue this discussion without saying that I treat it as a some kind of bad joke of history.
Discussing with you it’s like discussing with well trained North Korean about agression of South Koreans in 1950.
We DON’T discuss the POLLS here, nor we NEGATE THE HISTORICAL FACTS.
I wish you all the best, Rus-Loh.
Well Chevan,
I know you and I know your sarcasm, so I won’t get involved in that.
Just look above.
It’s not a threat my Friend,
I know that Russia will never admit its guilt in this matter.
And your famous sarcasm again :]
“Holy Poland”, “I think this is for the money”, that’s funny
I know you can do it much better if you want!
ВАРШАВА, 30 апр — РИА Новости, Леонид Свиридов. В Польше «символы коммунистической диктатуры» исчезнут с городских улиц, объявил министр культуры Польши Казимеж Уяздовский (Kazimierz Ujazdowski).
В специальном заявлении министерства культуры Польши сообщается, что готовится проект закона о местах национальной памяти, который даст возможность органам местного самоуправления и администрации «эффективно убирать памятники и символы иностранного господства над Польшей».
В Польше в субботу Катыньский комитет выразил солидарность с властями Эстонии в связи с демонтажом памятника Воину-освободителю в центре Таллина.
Катыньский комитет считает, что пришло время удалить с территории Польши «советские монументы».
«Катыньский комитет солидаризируется с властями независимой Эстонии и поддерживает решение о сносе советских монументов, памятников красной империи. С возмущением воспринимаем высказывания представителей властей Российской Федерации, угрожающих разрывом дипломатических отношений с Эстонией», — говорится в специальном заявлении Катыньского комитета.
Общественная организация, куда входят родственники польских офицеров, погибших в Катыни недалеко от Смоленска, отмечает, что Эстония, как и Польша, в течение 50 лет «испытала (на себе) советскую оккупацию, а советские памятники были и являются свидетельством порабощения и лжи, великорусского шовинизма».
«Советские памятники популяризировали и подводили теоретическую основу под советскую версию лжи, представляя Советскую Армию как освободительницу народов», — заявил Катыньский комитет.
Transleting:
WARSAW, 30 апр - RIA of News, Leonid Sviridov. In Poland « symbols of communistic dictatorship » will disappear from city streets, minister of culture of Poland Kazimierz Ujazdowski has declared.
In the special statement of the ministry of culture of Poland it is informed, that the bill about places of national memory which will enable institutions of local government prepares and administrations « effectively to remove monuments and symbols of foreign domination above Poland ».
In Poland on Saturday Katyn’s committee has expressed solidarity with authorities of Estonia in connection with dismantle of a monument to the Soldier - liberator in center of Tallin.
Каyn’s committee considers, that there has come time to remove from territory of Poland « the Soviet monuments ».
« Katyn’s committee makes common cause with authorities of independent Estonia and supports the decision about сносе the Soviet monuments, monuments of red empire. With indignation we perceive statements of representatives of authorities of the Russian Federation menacing with a severance of diplomatic relations with Estonia », - it is spoken in special statement of Katyn’s committee.
The public organization where relatives of the Polish officers who have lost in Катыни near to Smolensk enter, marks, that Estonia, as well as Poland, within 50 years «has tested the Soviet occupation, and the Soviet monuments were and are the certificate of enthralment and lie, great russian chauvinism ».
« The Soviet monuments popularized and brought a theoretical basis under the Soviet version of lie, representing the Soviet Army as liberation for peoples », - has declared Katyn’s committee.
Sorry Chevan but I think that mixing casulates was doing by author book what was quote by Rus-Loh.
BTW did this author or other russian authors give numbers pows who joint to polish army or Wrangel Army( via Poland ) when calculate russian pows in Poland?
For a change in direction, what explanation can be offered for Soviet crimes outlined here, which don’t get any attention outside Japan? http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/22336.html
It’s not like the Soviets had experienced the appalling mistreatment that the other Allies suffered at Japanese hands, so what motivated the mass murder of Japanese civilians?
text in chinese: “Don’t forget the shame inflicted upon the Chinese people during the Soviet advance into Northeast China during the autumn of 1945. Even Chinese mothers and sisters did not escape!”
No arguing! 
