The only reason why people hate you on this site, yes thats right hate you, is because you have a uncanny abilitity to make sweeping statements that you then challenge other people to prove wrong.
We could all do that.
Yes, your dad was in a viscous battle. But guess what, if you yourself had EVER worn uniform and fought you’d know that there can never be a no 1 battle. Every one is different.
For example. During my tours of Bosnia, we dug up mass graves containing the dead of the civil war. Was this the most gruesome thing ever done?
Trust me it up there, but I wouldn’t claim it was teh most gruesome. If my son ever does what your doin gnow I’ll slap him.
Get a grip, and realise that you are argueing something you could never understand.
My grandfather was a german officer, so he had experience fighting off human-wave assaults supported by tanks. the russians would gather up an immense supremacy in a certain sector and attempt to steamroll it, regardless of losses.
from his experience, one of the most difficult fights he had was during the battle of moscow. The Heer supply channels failed to deliever winter overcoats and weapon oils (to prevent small arms weapons,artillery from freezing up) and the soviets attacked in massive force.
The troops with him had to repulse an assault with only boxes of grenades, sharpened spades, and hollow charge mines and newly captured, greased-up russian small arms…
I’ve given you a personal example. on page 3. My grandfather fought in some very tough and desperate situations, too. He is a Knight’s Cross recipient…
Read anthony’s Beevor Stalingrad and THe fall of Berlin. In fact, anything from the ostfront. thats proof enough.
And, I’ve never said that the KURSK was FIERCER then Chosin, I’ve said that there are many eastern front episodes that are longer, more bloody, but just as fierce.
You like to think you are, I know. However, you have refuted that the battle of Chosin was not the fiercest in the history of modern warfare without having knowledge FIRST of another that was more so. That tells all about your mindset.
Now get me the proof, please. Find your expert who states otherwise.[/quote]
No, it’s because you are who and what you are. I made the statement that Chosin was the most vicious battle in the history of modern warfare, and you immediately argues that it is not so, without knowledge of otherwise, without proof, just because you are who and what you are.
GOOD LORD. Not the “soldiers know everything” trash again. :roll:
No, it’s because you are who and what you are. I made the statement that Chosin was the most vicious battle in the history of modern warfare, and you immediately argues that it is not so, without knowledge of otherwise, without proof, just because you are who and what you are
Yes because we like to see proof of a statment not some idiot talking crap.
When I asked you to prove it you just quoted yourself.
GOOD LORD. Not the “soldiers know everything” trash again.
Comparatively:
When discussing War?
When discussing weaponry
When discussing infantry tactics
When discussing anything that is either green or dangerous, they will know more than you.
No, it’s your mental problem. You don’t like the simple statement I made, another completely true one I might add, so you go biotch mode. Do you have any idea what a dumbass you look like when you go at someone who makes a simple statement the whole world knows is fact? Let me tell you: You look like a dung ball. :lol:
Oh dear he’s off again, whats that do I detect passive aggression, a liberal sprinkling of obsession, a whole heap of edupal complex some transferance and projection. Do us a favour take your med’s and go cuddle a gun it may both calm you down and make you feel less inadequate ( your major problem ) call your therapist in the morning and talk about your inner anger, lonliness, that first love that did’nt work out and your dysfuntional paternal relationship and fear of lonliness as a single over weight balding middle aged man dont forget your still mommy’s little soldier and a delectible buffet for a Psych practitioner .
You can deny this all you like but I am at the top of my game.
The choice is simple
A section 147 ( mental health act)
Rule 303 ( Breaker Morant)
lets have a poll
Have you anything intellectual to add to this discussion, or do you simply find that projection of your own childhood dispair upon others suffices as your contribution?
I tried to explain it in my oridinal post about that battle. Please re-read it. You did not I assume, before you criticize what I say without having even grasped the body of my post.
Please, re-read it. better yet, research the battle. There is plenty of information available about it. There have been countless authors write books about it, there are hundreds of web sites which provide articles about it.
After all, it was the most vivcious, fiercest battle in the history of modern warfare. Much has been written about it. Some of it was written by men who were a part of it. I am quite sure that you can find a cornucopia of information about it, if you will only try.
Here’s your original post about the battle, which bits should I be reading for the criteria of ‘bloodiest’ or ‘most vicious’?
editted to add - I don’t deny that Chosin was a very hard fought battle and that both the US and Korean/Chinese forces there suffered, but I find it hard to believe that you can compare it to some of the battles that have gone before it, such as the Somme, Verdun, Kohima, Stalingrad, Kursk, Monte Cassino etc.
Here is the post. Now you can read it for the first time, I assume:
"I think you’d have to understand the battle more to see what they mean. It became a battle where in soldiers were reloading their weapons as fast as they could to survive - by the thousands. Now imagine that battle fought with firearms at medium to close range distances - say up to 250 yards maximum distance for most of the fighting. Tens of thousands of men firing hand-held weapons in an area less than 300 yards square. The enemy came at them from several directions. That’s the kind of battle it was.
It was so heated that the USMC turned their 105mm cannons level and fired directly into the hordes (thousands at a time) of Chinese soldiers running at them over a hill 250 yards away. Many USMC dropped their Garands and picked up an M1 Carbine. M1 Carbines were issued Pell Mell because of their higher capacity and fire rate. Reloading could mean death at times. A great many soldiers picked up a dead brother’s weapon and fired it at rushing soldiers because his weapon was out of ammunition. Many USMC used a pistol as a last resort because every rifle within reach had been emtied and there was not time to reaload anything. Many soldiers faught with frozen fingers or feet, permanently lost to the cold, in the -40 weather, but had no time to worry about the pain, they just had to keep firing and reloading as best they could. Medics carried ampules of morphine in their mouths to keep them from freezing so that they could be injected into the wounded. Many soldiers who had lost a limb or eye continued to fight untill blood loss took their lives. Medics were forced to use weapons and abandon wounded soldiers or die at the hands of the 500 Chinese soldiers to thier left side less than 200 meters away… running straight at them while tossing hand grenades and shooting Sphagins and cheaply made Chinese sum-machine guns. Artillery was landing all over the place - so close to the fighting that it almost killed the side shooting it. The USMC called in artillery for such close support that the shells landed mere meters in front of them. They had to. This kind of fighting went on for over a week, at night, during the day, with sometimes no more than a few hours of relative calm in between attacks by hordes of Chinese soldiers. The USMC was dug in and surrounded. They were caught and made immoble for a week before they made a break for it and faught their way out with the help of the British and Australians and Canadians at their rear, where the enemy was relatively few in number, trying to keep a hole clear for the retreat, which they were unable to attempt for over a week.
The kill ratio of USMC to Chinese was 10 - 1. 240,000 Chinese attacked and most of the fighting was done by the US 1st marines Division, some of it was done by the 7th Marines Division, which got caught up in it. The British, Canadians, and Ausssies provided support from the rear but were not able to get into the battle at the front, and were ordered not to try. Because they would be moving over open ground, they would have been mowed down trying to get to the front by Chinese machinegun positions.
Machinegun barrels warped from the heat and had to be discarded. Grenades exploded every 20 - 50 meters for hours at a time. There has never been a battle quite like it in modern warfare."
If we did we maycome out with a completly different idea on the battle.
You made the statement, now be a good boy and explain why your statement is valid.
I don’t think PHds in Universitys stand up and say “I think this…” and then sit down to let the audience to research the subject on their own do they!!!
What criteria and for what reasons makes this the bloodiest of all battles.
To get extra points you should include comparisons with other battles showing how they are inferior. For example Stalingrad, Ypres, Valley Forge.
First thing guys, or any MOD out there. There is a Korean War topic for this kind of discussion. I suggest that all these posts should go there.
Secondly.
I am prepared to believe that the Chosin resevoir defeat may well be the hardest fought battle in modern times.
However as stated, Hosenfield has actually gone to the troube to find comparisons.
If you want me to believe it, you will have to prove it, that means comparison with other battles etc. We need to have something to compare it against.
Prove it to me and I for one am willing to believe you.
Over to the Korean war thread then (where you have yet to go which I find strange).
I’ve read it, and I fail to see why it is for instance any fiercer or more vicious than Kohima (where a large fraction of the battle was fought over a single tennis court), Stalingrad (where the weather, supply situation and firepower deployed against each side were all worse), and any one of dozens of other battles. Much of what is described there is relatively common in warfare, and historically in the Korean war having your own shells land “metres in front of you” doesn’t indicate particularly heavy or close fighting - it was common practice later in the war for UN troops from all countries (but particularly the US, as they had the most artillery) to call down artillery fire on top of their own position, not next to it. Does this mean that battles like Pork Chop Hill, Old Baldy and the like were fiercer than Chosin Reservoir? Likewise, speed of reloading has long been an issue when fighting mass assaults - it was absolutely critical in the Napoleonic wars for instance, where at battles like Waterloo the ability to load fast enough made the difference between victory and defeat.
He has proved it is a Hard fought battle - but nothing in it qualifies to make it any more brutal or harder than others that I can think of.
I dont imagine USMC troops saying, Geee I wish I could swap this for the sunshine and gentle breezes of the African Veldt wish I was fighting at rourkes drift, for instance. Reloading would have been an issue, Supply chains and reinforcements were non existent, there was NO line of retreat, The enemy were tireless and must surely have carried a huge numbers advantage, There was no fire support from artillery. It could jsut as easily be claimed to be more brutal.
Incidentally IRONMAN you make a great show of the fact that 105 field guns were used to fire over the heads of the US troops and into the ranks of the Assaulting Chinese, that does not surprise me at all, That is what weapons are for.
Grenades exploding 20 - 50 metres away all day long. 20 - 50 metres away from what, somebody is doing a crap job if they arent blowing up all over the place. There is no point in having your dets going off 40 metres apart! you could drive a bus through that!
