Your favorite Russian General

World War II Russian Military
#42

But you are ignoring fact that the MOST of ukrainians joined not to the UPA but to the Soviet partisans ( especially in the central and easter-southern regions).
In fact that the Soviet partisans WERE the most mass ANTI-GERMAN force in Ukraine till the 1944.

Most of Ukrainians were mobilised to the Red Army. The refusal to join the Red Army meant death.

Southern and Esatern regions were free from any mass partisan movements as there are steppes and it was impossible to establish partisan bases and kept them in secret from Germans.

The Soviet partisan movement in Ukraine originated and concentrated in the north-eastern forest territories of Ukraine.

You seemed to agree that Official Soviet WWII history mentions that in 1944 there were 250.000 Soviet partizans active in Belarus, Russia, Ukraine. And 185000 partizans got medal (during or after the war). The Soviet partisan movement lasted 3 years( 1941-1944)

OUN units later became known as UPA fought since 1941 - till late 1950s. As a result during all these years over 700000 men volonteered to participated in the UPA war against German troops, Polish AK and punitive NKVD units

But they betrayed not the USSR, thay betrayed the our Anti-germnans coailitin. Theu fight not as much with Germans as with polish AK and Soviet partisans and troops ( who fight agaist fascist).

And they betrayed and fought with the GIANT part of Ukraines who sincerely fought together with Red Army and soviet partisans.

First of all they never signed any treaties with that anti-German coalition.
Besides you contradicts yourselfas in the next sentence you admit that OUN-UPA fought against Germans.

Soviet partisans units in Ukraine (whose official headquarters were in Moscow) were ordered to attack UPA first as soon as Soviet leaders in Moscow started to receive plenty of reports about collaboration of Soviet partisan units with UPA or their open recognition of nationalistic ideology and the nationalistic leadership and the denial of communism

#43

So i think he is clearly expressed his personal answer who was the best- General Rokossovskij. The Polish-russian man who should captured the Berlin together with Konev, but was removed by Stalin one month befor.

For me General Rokosovsky was the second best commanding officer of the Soviet Army. The best man - by my personal opinion - was the youngest, 36 years old, Soviet General of the Army Ivan Danilovich Cherniakhovsky – double hero of the Soviet Union, whose military genius is still undully forgotten.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/Chernyahovsky_ID.jpg

This brilliant military leader, egregious tactician, remarkably vital tactical innovator of armored units, tank expert, colorful and dashing improver of pretty rigid original war plans, as well as remarkably pleasing personality, inspired not only the affection and devotion of his men, but even engendered a deep respect of his enemies.

#44

In the first you prostite for kirilitsu, it more not it will be, in the second about work Of upa with the partisans, yes such cases were and this is documentary confirmed, but so, it is confirmed that they collaborated in order to obtain potrony and to that podomnoye, but so, for the development of intelligence officers and deversantov in the rear of Germany, indeed because of them it was killed Kuznetsov, which planiryval murder to Cube.

#45

There is a separate tread about the Ukrainain Insurgent Army in this forum. If you need some informtion or wish to continue discussion.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4790

Yes, the training of Ukrainain members of OUN in Germany had taken place before the war in the USSR. As well as the training of many noted German officers in Soviet military academies. The UPA fighters managd to obtain ammunition and weapons from some German, Hungarian and Romanian units when they were retreating from Ukraine. Some historians say that it was a deliberate decision of senior German commanders to hand over stores of weapon to Ukrainians. Some historians said that it was rather the agreements between UPA that promised stopped attacks on Germans and their ally armies while their retreating in exchange of weapon. Perhaps both variants took place. The very same situation was with Polsih AK. The leaders of UPA who survived in Germans concentration camps were set free at that time.

The murder of Kuznetsov took place when he thought his mission was over and was trying to escape and return to the areas controlled by the Red Army. His real identity of a soviet spy was known only to his bosses in Moscow. So while moving alone in German uniform to rejoin the Soviets he came across a few men from UPA that had a routine patrolling of the area. They shot him at once as a German officer.

#46

Sure my dear friend you right.

The General Chernijakovskj was a brillian and outstanding example among all of the Soviet generals.
The commander of 3-rd belorussian front in 1944 he had realised the most succesfull soviet strategic offensives in the Belorussia.
Under his command the Group Army Centre was FINALY crushed and destroyed.
Unfortinatelly this man was mortally wounded in feb of 1945 by the germans atillery shell and died in Eastern Prussia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Chernyakhovsky
The foggoten hero of the Soviet Union.

#47

The refusal means not death but repressions.
And sure they were mobilized to the Red Army coz they were the citizents of the USSR, and this was their first duty to defend its motherland.
The other question - is did they do it volunatry. Sure they were voluntaries. Coz it was under control of Communist Ukrainian authorities;)

Southern and Esatern regions were free from any mass partisan movements as there are steppes and it was impossible to establish partisan bases and kept them in secret from Germans.

The Soviet partisan movement in Ukraine originated and concentrated in the north-eastern forest territories of Ukraine.

Yes Kato , my mistake.The most mass Pertisan activity areas were in North-East forests.
I was meaning just the Ukraine sympathies for the pro-soviet partisans.

You seemed to agree that Official Soviet WWII history mentions that in 1944 there were 250.000 Soviet partizans active in Belarus, Russia, Ukraine. And 185000 partizans got medal (during or after the war). The Soviet partisan movement lasted 3 years( 1941-1944)

As well as i know the 200 000 was ONLY in Ukraine. In Belorusia in 1943 about 60 000 and about the same in Russia.

OUN units later became known as UPA fought since 1941 - till late 1950s. As a result during all these years over 700000 men volonteered to participated in the UPA war against German troops, Polish AK and punitive NKVD units

From other hand the Germans sources give us the figures from 35 000 to 200 000 members of UPA in the mid 1943.
SO there is no any exact figures of it.It’s wrong to compare the figures of all “alleged members” with the ones who really fight for the this time.

First of all they never signed any treaties with that anti-German coalition.

But they actively interact withe Germans until the 1941. The Urrain nationalists have greeted the Nazi “Libaration” in summer 1941.
Besids they NEVER signed the any treates AGAINST Germany.
Instead they fought agains AK and Soviet partisans who fought against Germans.

Besides you contradicts yourselfas in the next sentence you admit that OUN-UPA fought against Germans.

I’ve never contrruducted with myself Kato.
Yes the UPA fought agains Germans , but they also fought agains the GErmans Enemies in regionPoles and pro-soviets Ukrainians.
This dual behaviour were very convenient for them - from one hand they were not a mortal ideological enemies of Germans like the soviets and AK ( this was useful for the colloboration with GErmans in way to receive the amunition and wearpon) , from other hand they were a “fighters for independence” ( Mostly from civil poles and Moskalei).i.e they were not an Axis-force.
Thus in general - the “actions” of UPA was not as much positive for the fight of Anti-german coalition as Nagitive in issue of Ethnical clearising of civils and fight against the Anti-germans forces in region.

Soviet partisans units in Ukraine (whose official headquarters were in Moscow) were ordered to attack UPA first as soon as Soviet leaders in Moscow started to receive plenty of reports about collaboration of Soviet partisan units with UPA or their open recognition of nationalistic ideology and the nationalistic leadership and the denial of communism

Oh really Kato , the dastard Stalin refuse the goodwill UPA to join :wink:
Your naivety sometimes bothers me.
Initially the Stepan Bandera and his friends declare the “Moskali, jews and poles” as the MAIN enemy of Ukraine nation , take the programm of Ethnically clear Ukraine, and then they suddenly …ask the Red Army to join the fight.
There is no fools, Kato.:smiley:
To cooperatation with UPA murders of Slav-polish population si a crime.
No one will interact with a such "Fighers for independens " like the UPA was.
Except the CIA during the coold War;) but this is whole other thread…

#48

Initially the Stepan Bandera and his friends declare the “Moskali, jews and poles” as the MAIN enemy of Ukraine nation , take the programm of Ethnically clear Ukraine, and then they suddenly …ask the Red Army to join the fight.
There is no fools, Kato.
To cooperatation with UPA murders of Slav-polish population si a crime.
No one will interact with a such "Fighers for independens " like the UPA was.
Except the CIA during the coold War but this is whole other thread…

I don’t see any common sense in this statement. You are unfamiliar with all the origianal programs and works of OUN. There were Russians in OUN-UPA as well as many other non- Ukrainain volonteers. You just repeat the standard cliches of the Soviet propaganda that produced slander in industrial extent.

Read at least the project of Ukrainian constition drafted by OUN in 1939.

The photocopies of its full text can be found here

http://jerzy.io.com.ua/album49748

According to this document sovereign Ukraine should be a presidential republic.

It stipulated that Ukrainian citizenship was to be granted to all ethnical Ukrainians. People of other nationalities who (or whose parents) had lived in Ukraine since the first of August 1914 also received citizernship.
The foreign persons married to citizens were to receive citizernship as well.
The constitution declared the gender equality. It guaranteed the free education to all the citizens.

#49

Oh that’s great.
Let study this “masterpieces” more carefully.

Article 1
Ukraine is sovereign, authoritarian, totalitarian, professional-corporative state that bears title Ukrainian State.

Hmmmn that’s very good Kato.
Totalitarian authoritarian Ukraine is the compliment for the comride Stalin;)

Article 2
The system of power in Ukraine is constructed in compliance with the principles of nationalcratia.
Nationacratia - power of Nation and State, which based on organized and solidary support of all social groups, … .
Article 3.
Whole the power in Ukraine state belongs for the Ukraine Nation.
The Ukrainian nation rules through the Chief of Nation.

Hmmmn the power belong the Nation…it seem i’ve heared it somewhere, yes the speech of Adolf Hitler.
Well you mst Kato in a right way.
And do not worry about National minorities:dirty Jews, Moskali, gipsyes and other poles:)
They have NO ANY RIGHTS, they OUT of law.

Part3: The head of State - the Chief of Nation

OH why Chief of Nation - the Fuehrer of Nation is much better and more exactly.:slight_smile:

The main principles of nationalcratia - national solidarity, ideas of close interaction between social classes and political parties.

According to this document sovereign Ukraine should be a presidential republic.

Yea …Fascist Republic that headed by Chief of Nation;)

It stipulated that Ukrainian citizenship was to be granted to all ethnical Ukrainians. People of other nationalities who (or whose parents) had lived in Ukraine since the first of August 1914 also received citizernship.
The foreign persons married to citizens were to receive citizernship as well.
The constitution declared the gender equality. It guaranteed the free education to all the citizens.

And what’s about the peoples whose parents did not live in Ukraine untill 1914?
Right - they HAVE no any rights and must be deported of killed.
And the history of the OUN activity is obviously proved this.
It sadly mst Kato that for the fair trumpery you do not see the Fascist sence of this “constitution”.
But this is not amazing for the man who really consider the blacks as the genetically determined Low Race, right Kato?

#50

Hmmmn the power belong the Nation…it seem i’ve heared it somewhere, yes the speech of Adolf Hitler.

It is written in the constitutions of nearly each state except some absolute monarchies.

#51

OH why Chief of Nation - the Fuehrer of Nation is much better and more exactly

Yes. Of course presidents in presidential republics are heads of the nations

#52

And what’s about the peoples whose parents did not live in Ukraine untill 1914?
Right - they HAVE no any rights and must be deported of killed.
And the history of the OUN activity is obviously proved this.
It sadly mst Kato that for the fair trumpery you do not see the Fascist sence of this “constitution”.
But this is not amazing for the man who really consider the blacks as the genetically determined Low Race, right Kato?

And what about modern Baltic states. They did not give their citizenship to many people ( it seems to me on the same grounds of certain time restrictions). Modern France and the US also used the time restrictions on leagising emigrants.

So where are there piles of bodies of killed illegals in the “Nazi” US and France and the mass escape of Russians back to their Russia from Baltic states?

#53

Yea they organise the parades of Waffen SS and instals the monuments for the Fascist soldiers.
It seem they are the IDEAL for you?The state with the Race restrictions, right?

Modern France and the US also used the time restrictions on leagising emigrants.

Oh yea…
In both those states the ALL people could receive the citizenship after 3-5 years of continious living.
In the OUN constitution the ALL people who come to the Ukraine after 1914 were the OUT of low - they could not even dream to get the right as a citizents.
So for 25 years of living ( since 1914-1939) the people who had even the children - but were STILL not citizens.
This is exactly the families of Poles and Russians who come the Ukraine in 1920-1938.
The aim of this “constitution” was to make them ALL OUT of LAW.

So where are there piles of bodies of killed illegals in the “Nazi” US and France and the mass escape of Russians back to their Russia from Baltic states?

In a Volun mass-graves:)

#54

Find out pliease at least single constitution where the Chief of Nation ( or leader of nation) is declared in the head of the Nation?

#55

Oh yea…
In both those states the ALL people could receive the citizenship after 3-5 years of continious living.

It concerns only those who live and work in the US on the legal basis and does not cover illegals. Don’t know about the US and France. In modern Germany it takes 5 years for a foreigner who come to work ( legally) to secure the right of open visa only. So you may start a fight against all the states of the world as they are Nazi according to your notions.

In the OUN constitution the ALL people who come to the Ukraine after 1914 were the OUT of low - they could not even dream to get the right as a citizents.
So for 25 years of living ( since 1914-1939) the people who had even the children - but were STILL not citizens.
This is exactly the families of Poles and Russians who come the Ukraine in 1920-1938.
The aim of this “constitution” was to make them ALL OUT of LAW

Go on. Then you would evidently be protecting the right of Nazi German colonists to live in Russia if Germany had won the war.

#56

Sure i will start to fight with all ot them:)
Right after i’ve finish the fascism in Ukraine:)

Go on. Then you would evidently be protecting the right of Nazi German colonists to live in Russia if Germany had won the war.

Any “colonists” who lived in Russia 25 years are not a colonits Kato, but sitizen ( sure if he lived legally)
But if the Germany should win the war - the all germans would lagal in Whole Europe( and in Ukraine it they should be especially welcomed):wink:

#57

Any “colonists” who lived in Russia 25 years are not a colonits Kato, but sitizen ( sure if he lived legally)
But if the Germany should win the war - the all germans would lagal in Whole Europe( and in Ukraine it they should be especially welcomed)

Then if the German Reich had collapsed, the Nazi German colonists would remain the owners of Russia and Russians would traditionally prefer to remain their slaves.

#58

After the German collaps about 30 000 of former germans pows has remained to live in Volga region. And they were the CITIZENTS of the USSR . Nobody limited them in a civil rights- they were like the russians.
Many of them still live in here( but the big part has emigrated to the GErmany after the 1991)

#59

After the German collaps about 30 000 of former germans pows has remained to live in Volga region. And they were the CITIZENTS of the USSR . Nobody limited them in a civil rights- they were like the russians.
Many of them still live in here( but the big part has emigrated to the GErmany after the 1991)

If you mean Germans who lived in the Volga region before WWII they were deported during the war.

As to the number of Germans POWs who stayed in the USSR they were entirely prohibited to keep up contacts with their relatives in Germany and were watched by KGB. They did not pose any threats and were ready to get assimilated.

#60

No i mean that germans who staeyd after ww2 voluntary.

As to the number of Germans POWs who stayed in the USSR they were entirely prohibited to keep up contacts with their relatives in Germany and were watched by KGB. They did not pose any threats and were ready to get assimilated.

They did not pose any threats sure, but Western Germany could threat for the USSR being in the enemy NATO block.
Except the limited of contacts with German relativies ( as and for any OTHER soviet sitizents the personal correspondence with Western States were limited or forbidden at all) the Germans HAD NO CIVIL limitations in the USSR.

#61

Vlasov’s men (ROA) were POW’s in German concentration camps, who did can fight in conjunction with Germans or die of hunger. You can also know Stalin brand them as traitors.

Vlasov knew about Soviet crimes, so he joined Germans in capacity nation which fought aggainist bolsheviks.