Commanding officers don’t lead frontal assaults on machine gun nests.
Yeap, is always better to drink hot tea and biscuits in the rear. :rolleyes:
Hello Panzer Knacker,
Since you apparently have that book written by Col (RE) MOhamed Ali Seineldin ( what a name btw!) or he is not longer a military man? I do not remember if he was exonerated from the Army after the “painted faces” makeshift revolutions of the late 80s… That might suport the argument as I remember that the 4th Regiment was reinforced by at least a Co. from RI 25th Regiment.
Could you please scan and post what he says about this event? There is no way I can find that book over here and the exchange of info or versions may help us understand what exactly happenned that day and perhaps have some points in common with the version of the events that I´ve brought to the forum.
I´ll go for the translation… for the English speaking forum colleagues if you may scan that especific part I feel “obligued”.
BTW, I read the first 2 pages of the Daily Mail serial on the battle posted by Lone Ranger… really terrible…
Pánzon.
Sorry but I dont have the book, there is however a extract here:
http://ar.geocities.com/laperlaaustral/gomez.htm
I do not remember if he was exonerated from the Army after the “painted faces” makeshift revolutions of the late 80s… That might suport the argument as I remember that the 4th Regiment was reinforced by at least a Co. from RI 25th Regiment.
Actually Seineldin was put in the shadows no for the carapintadas incident but the failed attemp against President Menem in december 3th 1990.
Lone Ranger,
Some more information came to me and it seems to support your position, apparently the “parliament” occurred but after the death of Col H Jones and it was between Subteniente Gómez Centurión and an officer by the name of Lt Barry.
The machine gunr that killed Col Jones was manned by Soldier Ledesma, from the section of Tte Estevez… together with him there were 2 more soldiers of the same section and another of 12th regiment EA and two petty officers of this same Regiment.
With regards of Corporal Abols, I have been informed that he did fire upon another MAG position with Corporal 1st class Ríos also the died Soldier Avila ( RI 12) and corporal Ávila of the 25th regiment.
I regret the term “Bulshit” on the account, surely if we continue in more convivial terms, we can find out more.
Juan.
Panzon, the term bullshit referred to the account that I was pointed to, it was not aimed at yourself. If you perceived that my remarks were aimed at you, then I apologise. I appreciate the fact that you took my earlier challenge in the spirit it was intended, I hope in turn you’ll appreciate that I tend to speak directly but no offence is intended.
In the mean time I went back to another account of the battle.
“At about 1500? Lt Jim Barry OC 12 platoon from Neame�s D Company concluded that the fight was all but over, at least near the school house, and that the Argentines were susceptible to an offer of surrender. Quite on his own against all commn sense and probably his company commander�s wishes he raised a white flag and moved forward to confer with Lt Gomez-Centurion who turned out to speak fluent english. In his turn Gomez-Centurion believed that the British officer with whom he spoke was 2 Para�s CO and asked him to surrender. The negotiations went nowhere and Gomez-Centurion gave Barry 2 minutes to return safely to his lines. Just then and several hundred meters away a British MG fired; the Argentines thought the truce had been unfairly broken and they killed Barry and his accompanying NCOs. Two Argentine soldiers, almost certainly unarmed, were shot and killed. In his article[120] on the affair Lt. Estaban has continued to claim that Gomez-Centurion confronted 2 Para�s CO and that his soldiers had killed Jones, not Barry, despite irreprochable evidence then and since that Jones had died hours earlier in another part of the battlefield.[121]”
I had to use the Wayback Machine to find a cached copy of the article.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030402105449/www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/GooseGreen/Page1.html
Its a fairly truthful account of the battle and refers to the meeting with Lt. Barry.
L.R
You might agree or not with the information posted but that does not qualificate you to label that as “bullshit” that is pure agression, the agression is something have no place here.
I am deleting your post.
Panzon’s own source as well as my own show that it was a pile of dingo’s kidneys. I’d apologised for any offence so censoring it is rather pointless.
Nice video showing the C company of the Reg Inf 25, the guy who is speaking in 1min 50 sec is the 1th Leutenant Esteban.
[quote=“Panzerknacker”]
Yeap, is always better to drink hot tea and biscuits in the rear. (lob sided grin smiley) [/quote]
What are you trying to insinuate here?
That Commanding Officers drink hot tea and biscuits while their Battalions/Regiments are engageing the enemy?
The CO is normally moving frantically from one place to another, in order to get the best vantage point of the battlefield, possibley right behind the assualting Company/ies.
That is why a CO gets a Bodyguard to protect him.
Col Jones, used his command group as a Rifle section to break the stalemate of the battle.
Care to explain your comment above?
I have received double confirmation that the “parliament” between Gómez Centurión and Lt Barry ocurred hours after the death of COl H JOnes.
ON the rest, the outcome seem to have been the same, with G-C killing Lt Barry as British machine gun fire started before each side of the parliament reached their respective lines. It seems more clear for me now that the officer who killed Lt Barry, was Gómez Centurión with his side arm…
Similar events, a mix up of names.
Lone Ranger,
I did not take ANY ofense from your word, just one btw, I was just trying to say that if we avoid ANY language that might ignite the forum would be great it would be better if we keep on being gentlemen, as you were when confirming that my “story” on the HMS Antelope was true to the point, and I think I am when recognizing that “my version” on “H” Jones death was wrong, that way, we learn to trust each other and we dig together for the truth.
Best regards.
PS: I regret P-K edited you, it wasn´t that bad…
P-K,
I hope u did not “sanctioned” Lone Ranger it was a pittance and now everything is on the right track again.
Juan.
Forget it Panzon, its not the first time PK has over-reacted.
Just so you get to know me a little better, I’m usually pretty impeccable when it comes to background research. I always cross-check sources to make sure as there are inevitably errors of fact in many texts. If I know the subject and spot an obviously erroneous account I call it like I see it but I tend to call a spade a f*****g shovel when it is so egregiously in error.
If I don’t know something I check for myself.
It has to be said though the Argentine texts frequently contain outrageous claims. That website PK refers to includes claims that both HMS Invincible and HMS Hermes were either sunk or badly damaged. So it is not surprising that the Brits here tend to be suspicious of them.
Actually that account you’ve offer does of itself provide an insight into different attitudes. If it were the case that a British Officer had shot a man in the back whilst under a flag of truce, our PK would be screaming war crime. Interesting that the Brits here see it for what it was; an unfortunate set of circumstances and the fog of war.
Ciao for now.
L.R and Panzon, this is not the place to discuss about my perfomance as moderator and I have no apreciation whatsoever of the excesive liberties you both had taken towards my person. If somebody have a complain please direct that to the administrators, any more comments like the last 2 post I will deleted in a heartbit.
-Care to explain your comment above?-
I think is self explained dear number, always better stay in the rear and no facing bullets, some argentine officers did it too.
If I have a complaint I’ll tell you directly, I won’t be sneaking off behind anyone’s back.
I am well aware that COs from various countries do like to sit back. British Officers have done it too. Your comment seemed to be aimed at Col Jones and other British COs of the time.
“dear number”? You aren’t trying to make out you are better than me in someway are you?
You are a moderator, which means by your very position you serve me rather than the other way around. Think about it.
Lone Ranger, you are probably spot on to be honest about the gun fire. It was a tragic accident in the fog of war.
this is not the place to discuss about my perfomance as moderator and I have no apreciation whatsoever of the excesive liberties you both had taken towards my person.
PK,
Please do not take wrongly… I was just trying to help calm the waters down… I have no complains about your moderation… just wanted to say that L-R did not offend me… and make a point in saying that some words only lead to pointless misunderstundings and prevent us from digging for the historical truth, which is the ONLY thing in which I am interested.
With regards to the excesive liberties… I do not understand this… which one I have taken? Answer to me via MP if you think is the best way.
Cheers,
Juan.
Im going to assume that everything is just wonderful in this thread?!?! :evil:
Coz if there are problems … I get pissed and then I want to shut this section down. Ive had enough F&M sections problems to last me a life time.
So everybody is smiling yes?!?! :mrgreen:
My dear General…If is for me you can closed it, the members here had already demonstrated that they didnt care about the pictures that I ve posted… just the senceless discussion and arguments.
Quite sad actually. It didnt encourage the topic whatsoever.
Seems that the good manners that Panzon had described in meticulous detail didnt work here.
Personally, I liked all of the pictures, I didnt get to see much of the information about this war when it was ongoing. So, the other’s dramas aside, this has been a great help. Thanks P.K.
Personally I dont get personally involved in this section and try to stay focused on the topic in hand.
If anyone has a problem with anyone in this topic I would ask them to contact me. I assure you any concerns you may have will be dealt with swiftly and fairly, no matter what status the protagonists have. Whether you are a Mod, someone who has made 1 post or 1000 posts matters not to me as I value all of your contributions and comments equally.
I volunteered here because I like the site and like to see it run smoothly and do consider that I work for you rather than the opposite.
Cheers…
Incidentally, as a mod at another site, and a consistent long time poster here - the poster also “works for” other posters and lurkers…